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Thread: Orthodox Church in America: God is love

  1. #1

    Orthodox Church in America: God is love

    I concur.

    http://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodo...ve/god-is-love
    Volume IV - Spirituality
    The Greatest Virtue is Love

    God is Love
    According to the Christian faith “the greatest virtue is love” (I Corinthians 13:13) Love is the “fulfilling of the law” of God. (Romans 13:10) For God Himself is Love.

    Beloved, let us love one another; for love is of God, and he who loves is born of God and knows God.

    He who does not love does not know God; for God is love.

    In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent His only Son into the world, so that we might live through Him.

    In this is love, not that we loved God but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the expiation for our sins.

    Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No man has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and His love is perfected in us.

    By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His own Spirit.

    And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son as the Savior of the World. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

    So we know and believe the love God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

    In this is love perfected with us, that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as He is so are we in this world.

    There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love.

    We love, because He first loved us. (I John 4:7-19)

    In these inspired words of the beloved Apostle John, one sees that man’s communion with God, his entire spiritual life, is expressed in love. Where there is no love, God is absent and there is no spiritual life. Where love is, God is, and all righteousness.

    Man’s love has its origin in God. God’s love always comes first. Men are to love God and one another because God Himself has loved first.

    God’s love is shown in the creation and salvation of the world in Christ and the Holy Spirit. All things were made by, in and for Jesus Christ, the Word of God, and the “Son of His love.” (Colossians 1:13-17; John 1:1-3; Hebrews 1:2)

    When the world became sinful and dead, “God so loved the world that He sent His only-begotten Son… not to condemn the world, but to save the world.” (John 3:16, 12:47)

    But God shows His love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8) But when the goodness and love of God our Savior appeared, He saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of His own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit which He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior so that we might be made righteous by His grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:4-7)

    God’s love for man and His world in Christ is given in the Holy Spirit. This love is the first and greatest “fruit of the Spirit” (Galatians 5:22), “for God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit which has been given to us.” (Romans 5:5)

    In the spiritual tradition of the Church, the aim of life as the “acquisition of the Holy Spirit” is expressed most perfectly in love. (cf. Saint Macarius of Egypt, 4th c., Spiritual Homilies; Saint Seraphim of Sarov, 19th c., Conversation with N. Molovilov) Indeed, the Holy Spirit Himself is identified with God’s love by the saints, as witnessed in the writings of Saint Simeon the New Theologian.

    0 Holy Love, - i.e., the Holy Spirit of God - he who knows you not has never tasted the sweetness of your mercies which only living experience can give us. But he who has known you, or who has been known by you, can never have even the smallest doubt. For you are the fulfillment of the law, you who fills, burns, inflames, embraces my heart with a measureless love. You are the teacher of the prophets, the offspring of the apostles, the strength of the martyrs, the inspiration of the fathers and masters, the perfecting of all the saints. Only you, O Love, prepare even me for the true service of God. (Saint Simeon the New Theologian, 11th c, Homily 53)

    Thus God who is Love enters into union with man through the Son of His love by the Spirit of love. To live in this divine love is the spiritual life.

    The first definition of love as agape is love as the action of perfect goodness for the sake of the other. This is the most basic meaning of love: to do everything possible for the well-being of others. God Himself has this love as the very content of His being and life, for “God is agape.” It is with this love that spiritual per- sons must love first of all.

    The second definition of love as eros is love for the sake of union with the other. Erotic love is no sin when it is free from sinful passions. It can be the utterly pure desire for communion with the other, including God. All spiritual writers have insisted that such love should exist between God and man as the pattern for all erotic love in the world between husband and wife. (See Sexuality, Marriage, and Family) Thus the mystical writers and spiritual fathers have used the Old Testament’s Song of Songs as the poetic image of God’s love for man and man’s love for God. (Philo the Jew, Gregory of Nyssa, Bernard of Clairvaux, John of the Cross, Richard Rolle in England, et al.) Indeed the prophets have used the image of erotic love in explaining the Lord’s relation with Israel. (Isaiah 54; Jeremiah 2-3,31; Ezekiel 16; Hosea) And Saint Paul uses this image for Christ’s love of the Church. (Ephesians 6) In the scriptures, the union of man with the Lord in the Kingdom of God is primarily revealed in the image of eros. (Matthew 22, Revelation 19-22)

    ...for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His Bride has made herself ready; it was granted to her to be clothed with fine linen, bright and pure - for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. (Revelation 19:7-8)

    “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” (Revelation 21:9)

    The third type of love is friendship - phila. This also should exist between man and God. Man has no greater friend than God, and God Himself wants to be man’s friend. According to the scriptures, the very purpose of the coming of Christ was to dispel all enmity between God and man, and to establish the co-working of Creator and creature in the fellowship of friendship.

    Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. (Exodus 33:11)

    Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you servants (or slaves), for the servant does not know what his master is doing. But I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father, I have made known to you. (John 15: 13-15)

    So it is that love as goodness, love as union, love as friendship are all to be found in God and man, between God and man, and between human beings. There is no form of true love which lays outside the realm of the spiritual life.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.



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  3. #2
    Me as well. Beautiful read...
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  4. #3
    This doesn't prove that Orthodox teaching contradicts itself. You two are absolutely and amazingly troublesome in your attempts to create contradictions where there are none.

    Jesus can't be more than wisdom because the Love of God flows from and is revealed in the very embodiment of Christ--who is wisdom. So the teaching is consistent, reconciles and flows with itself.

  5. #4
    Before this thread gets haywire, what was the 40+ post argument about in a few sentences?

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    I concur.

    http://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodo...ve/god-is-love
    Volume IV - Spirituality
    The Greatest Virtue is Love

    God is Love
    According to the Christian faith “the greatest virtue is love” (I Corinthians 13:13) Love is the “fulfilling of the law” of God. (Romans 13:10) For God Himself is Love.

    Beloved, let us love one another; for love is of God, and he who loves is born of God and knows God.

    He who does not love does not know God; for God is love.

    In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent His only Son into the world, so that we might live through Him.

    In this is love, not that we loved God but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the expiation for our sins.

    Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No man has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and His love is perfected in us.

    By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His own Spirit.

    And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son as the Savior of the World. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

    So we know and believe the love God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

    In this is love perfected with us, that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as He is so are we in this world.

    There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love.

    We love, because He first loved us. (I John 4:7-19)

    In these inspired words of the beloved Apostle John, one sees that man’s communion with God, his entire spiritual life, is expressed in love. Where there is no love, God is absent and there is no spiritual life. Where love is, God is, and all righteousness.

    Man’s love has its origin in God. God’s love always comes first. Men are to love God and one another because God Himself has loved first.

    God’s love is shown in the creation and salvation of the world in Christ and the Holy Spirit. All things were made by, in and for Jesus Christ, the Word of God, and the “Son of His love.” (Colossians 1:13-17; John 1:1-3; Hebrews 1:2)

    When the world became sinful and dead, “God so loved the world that He sent His only-begotten Son… not to condemn the world, but to save the world.” (John 3:16, 12:47)

    But God shows His love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8) But when the goodness and love of God our Savior appeared, He saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of His own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit which He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior so that we might be made righteous by His grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:4-7)

    God’s love for man and His world in Christ is given in the Holy Spirit. This love is the first and greatest “fruit of the Spirit” (Galatians 5:22), “for God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit which has been given to us.” (Romans 5:5)

    In the spiritual tradition of the Church, the aim of life as the “acquisition of the Holy Spirit” is expressed most perfectly in love. (cf. Saint Macarius of Egypt, 4th c., Spiritual Homilies; Saint Seraphim of Sarov, 19th c., Conversation with N. Molovilov) Indeed, the Holy Spirit Himself is identified with God’s love by the saints, as witnessed in the writings of Saint Simeon the New Theologian.

    0 Holy Love, - i.e., the Holy Spirit of God - he who knows you not has never tasted the sweetness of your mercies which only living experience can give us. But he who has known you, or who has been known by you, can never have even the smallest doubt. For you are the fulfillment of the law, you who fills, burns, inflames, embraces my heart with a measureless love. You are the teacher of the prophets, the offspring of the apostles, the strength of the martyrs, the inspiration of the fathers and masters, the perfecting of all the saints. Only you, O Love, prepare even me for the true service of God. (Saint Simeon the New Theologian, 11th c, Homily 53)

    Thus God who is Love enters into union with man through the Son of His love by the Spirit of love. To live in this divine love is the spiritual life.

    The first definition of love as agape is love as the action of perfect goodness for the sake of the other. This is the most basic meaning of love: to do everything possible for the well-being of others. God Himself has this love as the very content of His being and life, for “God is agape.” It is with this love that spiritual per- sons must love first of all.

    The second definition of love as eros is love for the sake of union with the other. Erotic love is no sin when it is free from sinful passions. It can be the utterly pure desire for communion with the other, including God. All spiritual writers have insisted that such love should exist between God and man as the pattern for all erotic love in the world between husband and wife. (See Sexuality, Marriage, and Family) Thus the mystical writers and spiritual fathers have used the Old Testament’s Song of Songs as the poetic image of God’s love for man and man’s love for God. (Philo the Jew, Gregory of Nyssa, Bernard of Clairvaux, John of the Cross, Richard Rolle in England, et al.) Indeed the prophets have used the image of erotic love in explaining the Lord’s relation with Israel. (Isaiah 54; Jeremiah 2-3,31; Ezekiel 16; Hosea) And Saint Paul uses this image for Christ’s love of the Church. (Ephesians 6) In the scriptures, the union of man with the Lord in the Kingdom of God is primarily revealed in the image of eros. (Matthew 22, Revelation 19-22)

    ...for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His Bride has made herself ready; it was granted to her to be clothed with fine linen, bright and pure - for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. (Revelation 19:7-8)

    “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” (Revelation 21:9)

    The third type of love is friendship - phila. This also should exist between man and God. Man has no greater friend than God, and God Himself wants to be man’s friend. According to the scriptures, the very purpose of the coming of Christ was to dispel all enmity between God and man, and to establish the co-working of Creator and creature in the fellowship of friendship.

    Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. (Exodus 33:11)

    Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you servants (or slaves), for the servant does not know what his master is doing. But I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father, I have made known to you. (John 15: 13-15)

    So it is that love as goodness, love as union, love as friendship are all to be found in God and man, between God and man, and between human beings. There is no form of true love which lays outside the realm of the spiritual life.

    I'm happy to see that you're converting to Orthodoxy from Sola scripture jmd. Wise choice.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    Before this thread gets haywire, what was the 40+ post argument about in a few sentences?
    I'm sure jmd didn't post the OP in support of what Orthodoxy believes--he was attempting to prove something all together different here. SOS--different day.

  8. #7
    People are "in love" with the IDEA of a God whose essence is love (love according to their own tastes). The worldly connotation of "love" when applied to God is a half-truth and leaves out his wrath and vengeance. Rather than returning his love by obedience to His laws and fearing to stray from his path the "God is Love" mentality consoles people and breeds a worldview that the consequences of sin are not that great.

    God will punish you for destroying/harming yourself out of love for you and will take vengeance upon you for destroying/harming others out of love for them.
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    This doesn't prove that Orthodox teaching contradicts itself. You two are absolutely and amazingly troublesome in your attempts to create contradictions where there are none.

    Jesus can't be more than wisdom because the Love of God flows from and is revealed in the very embodiment of Christ--who is wisdom. So the teaching is consistent, reconciles and flows with itself.
    Yep, He is wisdom and knowledge (which come from Love) but my experience is in God is Love and that in that:

    I Corinthians 13:4Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

    8Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

    Galatians 5:13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”15But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!

    Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    Before this thread gets haywire, what was the 40+ post argument about in a few sentences?
    God is Love now means God is Wisdom and some of us are Unworthy of a reasonable explanation of why we should accept this term change. One says wisdom comes from Love, the other is that love comes from Wisdom. Seems like the same argument but imo it changes the tone of what one is seeking. Shall I seek wisdom or shall I seek love is what it boils down to from my perspective.
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by moostraks View Post
    God is Love now means God is Wisdom and some of us are Unworthy of a reasonable explanation of why we should accept this term change. One says wisdom comes from Love, the other is that love comes from Wisdom. Seems like the same argument but imo it changes the tone of what one is seeking. Shall I seek wisdom or shall I seek love is what it boils down to from my perspective.
    It stands to reason in my mind that without understanding in wisdom first and foremost of what the love of God is --one can't recognize the source of that "love" and what it is.

    To say that Love comes before wisdom is the same as saying that anything can be the essence of love without the wisdom of God to know the difference. So speaking in terms of biblical logic--wisdom must come first and reconciles with the church teaching-- that everything flows from wisdom first. Because wisdom is the embodiment and essence of the revelation of God in Christ that allows and gives life and meaning to every spiritual attribute and gift that follows and flows from wisdom being Jesus Himself.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    People are "in love" with the IDEA of a God whose essence is love (love according to their own tastes). The worldly connotation of "love" when applied to God is a half-truth and leaves out his wrath and vengeance. Rather than returning his love by obedience to His laws and fearing to stray from his path the "God is Love" mentality consoles people and breeds a worldview that the consequences of sin are not that great.

    God will punish you for destroying/harming yourself out of love for you and will take vengeance upon you for destroying/harming others out of love for them.
    Got a source for this claim?
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Got a source for this claim?
    God will punish you for destroying/harming yourself out of love for you:

    Hebrews 12:4-11

    Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

    5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

    For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

    If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
    God will take vengeance upon you for destroying/harming others out of love for them:

    Revelation 18:20 [concerning wholesale destruction of whatever nation is Babylon] Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    Before this thread gets haywire, what was the 40+ post argument about in a few sentences?
    This. I claim that while faith and works go together, it is God that works in us both to do the works and to want to do them. (Philippians 2:13). Terry countered that all you get from the Holy Spirit is wisdom and knowledge and that we must do the work ourselves, flatly contradicting Philippians 2:13. I countered that the Holy Spirit, who is an equal part of the Trinity, is more than just wisdom and knowledge and pointed out that the Bible says "God is love". Terry claimed that God is really just wisdom and that everything else flows from Wisdom. I showed from Terry's own sources that the Orthodox church (at least universally) doesn't teach that God is nothing but Wisdom. I also claim that you can have God's Wisdom without having God as the Bible contains God's Wisdom. Terry thinks the Bible only contains God's knowledge. That's the argument in a nutshell.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    I'm happy to see that you're converting to Orthodoxy from Sola scripture jmd. Wise choice.
    I concur with Orthodox beliefs as long as they agree with scripture. Your belief that God is merely wisdom is neither Orthodox nor scriptural. If the Orthodox church did teach that, and so far you haven't shown that they did, then I would disagree.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    This doesn't prove that Orthodox teaching contradicts itself. You two are absolutely and amazingly troublesome in your attempts to create contradictions where there are none.

    Jesus can't be more than wisdom because the Love of God flows from and is revealed in the very embodiment of Christ--who is wisdom. So the teaching is consistent, reconciles and flows with itself.
    Except the Bible doesn't teach that Jesus is only Wisdom. I already gave you proof that Paul taught Jesus was both the Wisdom of God and the power of God. Wisdom, power, love are all attributes of God.
    Last edited by jmdrake; 10-29-2014 at 02:03 PM. Reason: (Edit: Changed "was" to "is" because Jesus still "is")
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    People are "in love" with the IDEA of a God whose essence is love (love according to their own tastes). The worldly connotation of "love" when applied to God is a half-truth and leaves out his wrath and vengeance. Rather than returning his love by obedience to His laws and fearing to stray from his path the "God is Love" mentality consoles people and breeds a worldview that the consequences of sin are not that great.

    God will punish you for destroying/harming yourself out of love for you and will take vengeance upon you for destroying/harming others out of love for them.
    No one in this thread has made the claim that God doesn't punish people. I punish my kids when they are wrong. I love them.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Except the Bible doesn't teach that Jesus was only Wisdom. I already gave you proof that Paul taught Jesus was both the Wisdom of God and the power of God. Wisdom, power, love are all attributes of God.
    Well now you're simply misrepresenting what I actually said in a last ditch desperate effort to make yourself right. I've never said that Jesus was *ONLY* wisdom. What I did say was that "everything flows from that wisdom" being first and foremost above everything else that comes as a result of that same wisdom and being Christ Himself.
    Last edited by Terry1; 10-29-2014 at 02:00 PM.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Except the Bible doesn't teach that Jesus was only Wisdom. I already gave you proof that Paul taught Jesus was both the Wisdom of God and the power of God. Wisdom, power, love are all attributes of God.
    Didn't read the whole thread, but you're right. The Orthodox Church teaches that Jesus Christ is fully man and fully God. (this dual nature of God is represented in the lowered pinky and ring finger when making the sign of the cross)
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    Well you're now simply misrepresenting what I actually said in a last ditch desperate effort to make yourself right. I've never said that Jesus was *ONLY* wisdom. What I did say was that "everything flows from that wisdom".
    Well by all means clear up the misconception. What else is Jesus? Remember you are the one that said "Jesus can't be more than He is".

    Edit: And note, you still haven't addressed, and I wonder if you can address, why Paul said Christ became the power of God AND the wisdom of God. If your interpretation was correct (it's not), Paul should have said "Christ became the Wisdom of God and from that the power of God flowed".
    Last edited by jmdrake; 10-29-2014 at 02:05 PM.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Well by all means clear up the misconception. What else is Jesus? Remember you are the one that said "Jesus can't be more than He is".
    Well--if you need me to actually explain simple logic here-- If Jesus is wisdom and everything flows from that same wisdom regarding spiritual attributes and gifts--what more can He be other than who He is. God said "I AM that I AM and I change not".

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    Well--if you need me to actually explain simple logic here-- If Jesus is wisdom and everything flows from that same wisdom regarding spiritual attributes and gifts--what more can He be other than who He is. God said "I AM that I AM and I change not".
    Simple logic? You mean like the understanding of the conjunction "AND".

    1 Cor 1:14 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.


    Sorry, but Paul doesn't say "the power of God flowed from the Wisdom of God".
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Simple logic? You mean like the understanding of the conjunction "AND".

    1 Cor 1:14 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.


    Sorry, but Paul doesn't say "the power of God flowed from the Wisdom of God".
    Gods power is manifest in His wisdom as in Christ. Gods power and His wisdom go hand in hand--one without the other can not and does not exist. Which is repeated in scripture over and over again.


    1 Corinthians:
    24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    Gods power is manifest in His wisdom as in Christ.
    Except the Bible doesn't say that. You're Orthodox sources don't say that. None of your fellow Orthodox believers have stepped forward and agreed with you on that. You are on your own in that belief.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Except the Bible doesn't say that. You're Orthodox sources don't say that. None of your fellow Orthodox believers have stepped forward and agreed with you on that. You are on your own in that belief.
    Well how silly is that? Any babe understands that the power of God is made manifest in Christ and if Christ is wisdom--that is the power of God. Simple logic kiddo. Keep digging--let me know when that hole is taller than you.

    Besides, I don't need to drag my Orthodox brethren into this silly debate with you. The Lord and I seem to doing just fine on our own.
    Last edited by Terry1; 10-29-2014 at 02:41 PM.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Didn't read the whole thread, but you're right. The Orthodox Church teaches that Jesus Christ is fully man and fully God. (this dual nature of God is represented in the lowered pinky and ring finger when making the sign of the cross)
    He didn't win that one legitimately. He misstated me on purpose. I never made the statement that God is "ONLY* wisdom.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    He didn't win that one legitimately. He misstated me on purpose. I never made the statement that God is "ONLY* wisdom.
    You said He is "wisdom and everything flows from that same wisdom... what more can He be other than who He is". How else can that be read but to see it as defining Him as wisdom?
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by moostraks View Post
    You said He is "wisdom and everything flows from that same wisdom... what more can He be other than who He is". How else can that be read but to see it as defining Him as wisdom?
    Stands to reason that if everything flows from wisdom that everything is also contained in that same wisdom. Wisdom encompasses everything and Jesus being the embodiment of every thing--being wisdom.

    Edited for correction
    Last edited by Terry1; 10-29-2014 at 05:01 PM.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    It stands to reason in my mind that without understanding in wisdom first and foremost of what the love of God is --one can't recognize the source of that "love" and what it is.

    To say that Love comes before wisdom is the same as saying that anything can be the essence of love without the wisdom of God to know the difference. So speaking in terms of biblical logic--wisdom must come first and reconciles with the church teaching-- that everything flows from wisdom first. Because wisdom is the embodiment and essence of the revelation of God in Christ that allows and gives life and meaning to every spiritual attribute and gift that follows and flows from wisdom being Jesus Himself.
    Where does faith and trust come into play here? Love is more important than wisdom, and through the eyes of Love one is able to see what is true rather than what may be argued as logical or necessary as the Law was initially interpreted. The numerous examples of blind trust of the faithful seem to conflict with your need for signposts on the road.
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Except the Bible doesn't say that. You're Orthodox sources don't say that. None of your fellow Orthodox believers have stepped forward and agreed with you on that. You are on your own in that belief.
    Another thing here too--I don't need anyone to fight my battles for me. You may have your lit'l girlfriend or mommy there and Kevin (lol), but I can't see where even after you two/three have repeatedly tag teamed me are any better off, in fact--you actually dug large holes for yourselves.

    No--I've always been on my own when it came to fighting my own battles--it doesn't bother me that jmd got more support from hb than I did either--LOL It is what it is. Speaking of which--there really isn't much left for me in this forum at this point. Buh-bye

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    Stands to reason that if everything flows from wisdom that everything is also contained in that same wisdom. Wisdom encompasses everything and Jesus being the embodiment of every thing--being wisdom.

    Edited for correction
    Yep, and that as such puts an entirely different emphasis on the sy-lla-ble. It then follows why you have a lesser opinion of the emotions or physical because reason is taking a front seat. I don't see any need to find reason as a less damaged facet of our being than emotions or physical manifestations. We will rely heavily on enlightenment when seeing Him as wisdom and not be moved by Love except as incidental to the logic we embrace for our belief.

    Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart
    And do not lean on your own understanding.
    6 In all your ways acknowledge Him,
    And He will make your paths straight
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

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