(War on Women) NYC: 10 hours of Harassment or Compliments?

[PaulConventionWV]

There is much behavior that be attributed to pop-culture conditioning. Over time it may work for some.



I do not think this is about simple cat-callers which is no biggie. Following a woman for five minutes and not leaving her alone in an aggressive manner is not simply cat-calling.

Conditioning through pop-culture may bring that aspect of one jerk in a group being told to cut the crap rather than them all joining in.

I don't think culture conditioning is going to solve this. This has been around for most of history. A guy following you certainly is creepy, and I would definitely think a woman was justified in telling him to back off or else, but I don't think society is going to stop this from happening. This has happened for most of history, despite the fact that most of the culture usually does not approve of it. Culture conditioning isn't going to stop thugs from being thugs. There will always be thugs no matter how much you try to condition them by example. That's why they're thugs. Because they don't freaking care about the culture.

People who do this don't surround themselves with friends who tell them to stop. If they're friends, it usually means they're into the same things.

[Rothbardian Girl]

I don't think culture conditioning is going to solve this. This has been around for most of history. A guy following you certainly is creepy, and I would definitely think a woman was justified in telling him to back off or else, but I don't think society is going to stop this from happening. This has happened for most of history, despite the fact that most of the culture usually does not approve of it. Culture conditioning isn't going to stop thugs from being thugs. There will always be thugs no matter how much you try to condition them by example. That's why they're thugs. Because they don't freaking care about the culture.

People who do this don't surround themselves with friends who tell them to stop. If they're friends, it usually means they're into the same things.

Have you ever attempted to convert someone to your point of view? Your presence on these threads seemingly indicates this, unless you're one of those people who boringly states an opinion without expecting to debate over it. You're really argumentative for someone who apparently believes people can't be persuaded. I can confidently state that there are men out there willing to have this talk with people they know, because I am dear friends with some of them. Not all catcallers fit the "thug" archetype; there are plenty who are otherwise well-adjusted. It's an ubiquitous phenomenon.

Open your eyes. Oppression Olympics is exactly what this video is. It's a competition in the Oppression Olympics. It's obvious.

You've admitted men are often threatened with violence for coming to the defense of someone who is targeted, and you've admitted these situations may sometimes escalate to full-on assault... and your "solution" is to shame women who respond to it, or otherwise bury your head in the sand. Have you ever considered that responding may be a defense tactic for some women? How many of these women who supposedly were successfully charmed by someone catcalling them actually gave real information out?

[PaulConventionWV]

Have you ever attempted to convert someone to your point of view? Your presence on these threads seemingly indicates this, unless you're one of those people who boringly states an opinion without expecting to debate over it. You're really argumentative for someone who apparently believes people can't be persuaded. I can confidently state that there are men out there willing to have this talk with people they know, because I am dear friends with some of them. Not all catcallers fit the "thug" archetype; there are plenty who are otherwise well-adjusted. It's an ubiquitous phenomenon.

It won't get rid of all of them. There will always be that little subsection of society who doesn't do culturally accepted things. This is common sense. And who knows why I argue? Why do any of us argue? I just enjoy debating and maybe part of it is that I just feel so hopelessly surrounded by faulty reasoning that I feel the need to say something no matter what effect it might have. That's what most of us do. That doesn't mean I do it all the time, but this is one issue in which I see a particularly large amount of bull$#@! being spread. I'm sorry if it offends you that I'm argumentative, but despite the fact that people seem to think I'm harsh, I've never called anyone a name for disagreeing with me, with very few exceptions a long time ago. I'm really not a bad guy, I promise.

You've admitted men are often threatened with violence for coming to the defense of someone who is targeted, and you've admitted these situations may sometimes escalate to full-on assault... and your "solution" is to shame women who respond to it, or otherwise bury your head in the sand. Have you ever considered that responding may be a defense tactic for some women? How many of these women who supposedly were successfully charmed by someone catcalling them actually gave real information out?

It wasn't a defense tactic in the videos I was talking about. The women were smiling and giggling and hand him their number through a car window on the street. The point is that lots of women don't actually feel harassed by this, depending on the situation. Granted, this guy was in a nicer neighborhood and was much more well-dressed, but that's kind of the point. If you're hanging around areas where you feel threatened, then get out of those areas and the same behavior can seem flattering and even friendly.

Also, the fact that this may potentially lead to assault is irrelevant. There is already something you can do about assault. There is nothing you can do about idiots being idiots except complain to non-idiots about them. What does that do?

[kahless]

Looking at it again, it is pretty tame compared to what I have seen. They really could have done a better video.

This is why I support them having their campaign to dial things back a bit for some specific demographics that are more aggressive through their actions and words.

[Anti Federalist]

Yeah, but would it be the same if some creepy looking skank on the street grabbed you in the crotch and would not leave you alone.

Where'd you meet my ex wife...? O_o

[Anti Federalist]

I don't get it. He just proved you wrong. Why do you feel it necessary to call him names?

I'm honestly curious myself.

[kahless]

Where'd you meet my ex wife...? O_o

LOL.

[aGameOfThrones]

I just don't got the moves...

[juleswin]

Speaking of things to hold, the ad on this thread reads

"The best thing to hold onto in life is earch(sp) other" with a picture of good looking Chinese women from chinesewomendate.com. The people at google ad are good.

[kahless]

Speaking of things to hold, the ad on this thread reads

"The best thing to hold onto in life is earch(sp) other" with a picture of good looking Chinese women from chinesewomendate.com. The people at google ad are good.

I get it to and I was thinking it comes up because being a middle aged divorced white guy means I am probably the prime demographic for that scam.

[Spikender]

Well, this topic certainly went places while I was gone.

[DevilsAdvocate]

They do it because it works...with a certain type of girl.

[Suzanimal]

"After a video of a woman experiencing over 100 instances of street harassment during a 10 hour period walking the streets of New York City went viral, Funny Or Die News decided to conduct an experiment to see what happens to a white man walking the streets of NYC."
http://www.funnyordie.com/articles/eb...

[specsaregood]

Ok, I don't usually laugh at their videos, but that one was funny.

[jonhowe]

Then that is a cost-benefit decision that you have made... accepting bad behavior from others because you like your job more than dislike the bad behavior.

Yes, so?

That doesn't have any bearing on the discussion over if this behavior is ok, and if not (and clearly it is not ok), how we fix it.

[jonhowe]

Take it easy man, what you see is people participating in the mating dance.

Maybe at one point in the Olden Days this was a mating dance. It is not anymore. It is outright harassment 99.9% of the time. Here is a quote from my (very attractive and not at all 'skanky') friend Nicole on her daily walk to the train: "I have literally only a 10min walk every morning (at 7 30am) and get cat called or creeped on at least 5 times during that short walk, most times more. And that's just going to work in the morning, not even the rest of the day."

She lives in Chelsea, certainly not considered a "bad neighborhood". I've been with her when it's happened, too. She is quite petite and it gives a lot of guys a feeling they can really get away with anything. She's had men attempt to feel her up on the sidewalk in the middle of the day and passers by do nothing. Just this week (monday morning) she was asked if she would "sit on a guys face". NOT a mating dance.

This doesn't even take into account the fact that there was only 90 seconds of footage and many of the things people said weren't that bad, not to mention the fact that she was walking in bad neighborhoods to begin with.

What's the point of making videos about this?

For people like you who clearly don't get that this is a big deal. Clearly it didn't work, but then, I never had much hope.
The rest of us will take this as a jumping off point to talk with friends/neighbors/community members to help reduce the frequency of this crap.

For the majority of the video, FWIW, she was not walking in bad neighborhoods. There are very few "bad neighborhoods" left in Manhattan (East/Spanish Harlem, for example).

Alpha $#@!s/Beta Bucks. Of course a hot, young stud who lives with his parents isn't good long-term relationship. She may marry or have a long-term relationship with the man who can better provide for her, but she probably did things to the stud that she wouldn't do with her own husband (even though he craves those things). This is where you get situations where a woman will talk about how she used to have threesomes, or perform certain sexual acts, but won't with her husband (whom she presumably loves above all others) because "she's not like that anymore." LOL - that's not the real reason. The real reason is that her sweet husband and loving father to her children does not invoke the same fires within her that she had experienced when she rode the cock carousel in her youth.

You must know a lot of unpleasant people.

Sure, it may be a dickish thing to do, but who is it hurting, honestly? If someone commits violence against a woman, they deserve the fullest justice under the law, but not until then. How does anyone propose we change this? There will always be weirdos on the street and no amount of social engineering is going to fix that.

Seriously, who has an idea for how we stop thugs from cat-calling? What does it help to even bring attention to this issue?

It isn't hurting you, that's quite clear. So therefore... we should do nothing, apparently?

Stop implying that anyone on the other side of the issue is calling for "social engineering".

Your very last line is so telling because you put the question after the answer! What does it help to bring attention to the issue? That's the idea for how we stop thugs from cat calling! If decent men everywhere STOP thinking it is acceptable to act aggressively towards women on the sidewalk, and call out their friends/neighbors when it happens.

My neighborhood, near a park, used to be covered with dog crap. Some neighbors and I made signs, put them up, and helped encourage our neighbors to pick up after their dogs. The block is now significantly less poop covered, after only 6 months.

[jonhowe]

Really, what is your issue?

Are you denying that men are the victims of violent crime more often than women?

I think the word "victim" there might be misplaced. The same stats that give your numbers also show that over 90% of ALL drug related crime is perpetrated on and by men, and that 94% of gang crime is perpetrated on and by men. Meanwhile, 80+% of sex crimes resulting in murder are perpetrated on women (the vast majority by men). You also need to take into account that women are significantly less likely to commit a crime.

In short, most crime is male on male. The second most likely is male on female. Crimes committed by a woman are a vast minority.




So sure, your stat is correct (as I knew, which is why I didn't debate it with you earlier), but it's much more nuanced than you represent.

[tod evans]

The mere idea that "we need to fix it" is $#@!ed up from the onset.

If you or I don't like the behavior of others in our periphery it's up to each of us individually to change either our surroundings or our reaction to them.

The idea of ganging together to force others to behave in ways you find acceptable is for thugs and authoritarians.

I know how folks in NY city behave, I won't go there....

[thoughtomator]

I think the word "victim" there might be misplaced. The same stats that give your numbers also show that over 90% of ALL drug related crime is perpetrated on and by men, and that 94% of gang crime is perpetrated on and by men. Meanwhile, 80+% of sex crimes resulting in murder are perpetrated on women (the vast majority by men). You also need to take into account that women are significantly less likely to commit a crime.

In short, most crime is male on male. The second most likely is male on female. Crimes committed by a woman are a vast minority.




So sure, your stat is correct (as I knew, which is why I didn't debate it with you earlier), but it's much more nuanced than you represent.

Once you start talking about "drug related crime" we are having a completely different conversation. Making something against the law may make it legally a crime, but morally the real crime is being perpetrated against the person arrested and charged for it. Which, as you noticed, is directed 90% towards men. These belong in the "crimes against men" and not the "crimes perpetrated by men" category, in my book.

Also the "sex crimes resulting in murder" category is oddly specific. Why are you discounting sex crimes that don't result in murder, and murders that aren't sex-crime related? And when you're talking sex crimes, are we talking actual sex crimes of political-correctness-generated sex crimes?

[Matt Collins]

Yes, so?

That doesn't have any bearing on the discussion over if this behavior is ok, and if not (and clearly it is not ok), how we fix it.

Most of it is the result of bad parenting... not much that can be done about that

[jonhowe]

Once you start talking about "drug related crime" we are having a completely different conversation. Making something against the law may make it legally a crime, but morally the real crime is being perpetrated against the person arrested and charged for it. Which, as you noticed, is directed 90% towards men. These belong in the "crimes against men" and not the "crimes perpetrated by men" category, in my book.

Also the "sex crimes resulting in murder" category is oddly specific. Why are you discounting sex crimes that don't result in murder, and murders that aren't sex-crime related? And when you're talking sex crimes, are we talking actual sex crimes of political-correctness-generated sex crimes?

Because the stats that were first in the folder on my desktop were for Homicides. It broke them down into drug related (as in, during the sale or use of drugs), gang related, or sex related (as in before or after a rape) homicides. My point was smaller; men commit most violent crimes against men, so the stats given by AF are not as simple as they first seem. Neither are the stats I pulled up, as you thoughtfully pointed out!

The mere idea that "we need to fix it" is $#@!ed up from the onset.

If you or I don't like the behavior of others in our periphery it's up to each of us individually to change either our surroundings or our reaction to them.

The idea of ganging together to force others to behave in ways you find acceptable is for thugs and authoritarians.

I know how folks in NY city behave, I won't go there....

Phew!

I am attempting to change my surroundings. If you don't live here, or don't want to take part in helping change them, feel free not to visit. Not sure why a comment was needed, but that never stopped me either

You think shaming is going to stop thugs from being thugs?

Yes. I've seen it work many times.

It really, truly does work sometimes. I hadn't even thought of that before, but it's true. If you want cat-calling to stop, then shame the women who encourage this behavior by responding to it.

I'm for this as well. Just remember that sometimes women are doing this simply to get the guy to leave her alone. IE, fake number. Nicole, who I mentioned earlier, has one memorized that sounds real, for example.

Open your eyes. Oppression Olympics is exactly what this video is. It's a competition in the Oppression Olympics. It's obvious.

Wanting people not to act like $#@!s is not oppression. Where do you get that idea from?

[kahless]

The mere idea that "we need to fix it" is $#@!ed up from the onset.

If you or I don't like the behavior of others in our periphery it's up to each of us individually to change either our surroundings or our reaction to them.

The idea of ganging together to force others to behave in ways you find acceptable is for thugs and authoritarians.

I know how folks in NY city behave, I won't go there....

You will not have to go to NYC since with the demographic and cultural change in this country it is coming to you. You won't be able to get away from with it.

You have not heard the complaints from loved ones nor experienced it yourself while with a loved one. Be prepared to defend yourself, your daughter, girlfriend, mother, sister, or Aunt some day if you ever have to walk with them in public with these animals on the street.

[CaptUSA]

You have not witnessed a loved one experience it nor experienced it yourself while with a loved one. Be prepared to defend yourself, your daughter, girlfriend, mother, sister, or Aunt some day if you ever have to walk with them in public with these animals on the street.

You can't walk through a jungle without being prepared to run into some snakes.

[Suzanimal]

You will not have to go to NYC since with the demographic and cultural change in this country it is coming to you. You won't be able to get away from with it.

You have not witnessed a loved one experience it nor experienced it yourself while with a loved one. Be prepared to defend yourself, your daughter, girlfriend, mother, sister, or Aunt some day if you ever have to walk with them in public with these animals on the street.

I've never been catcalled while in the company of a man.

[kahless]

You can't walk through a jungle without being prepared to run into some snakes.

The worst experiences I have heard about or witnessed were not in the jungle. Animals sometimes wander out the jungle in packs or you run into a rabid one.

[kahless]

I've never been catcalled while in the company of a man.

The issue is not simply cat-calling such as whistling or saying something nice from a far. It is men or groups of men that get overly aggressive or threatening that goes beyond cat-calling.

The worst part of that video is the dude that followed her for 5 minutes. There are worse stories to be told as described by others in this thread.

[FloralScent]

It's not about sex. It's about chest thumping.

Nope, guy here, it's about sex.

[tod evans]

You will not have to go to NYC since with the demographic and cultural change in this country it is coming to you. You won't be able to get away from with it.

You have not heard the complaints from loved ones nor experienced it yourself while with a loved one. Be prepared to defend yourself, your daughter, girlfriend, mother, sister, or Aunt some day if you ever have to walk with them in public with these animals on the street.

Ever been to the Ozarks?

The likelihood of such behavior transpiring here is pretty slim..

I know that I personally have no problem at all risking a prison sentence to stand up for my family in such a way that others will question such behavior in the future even if I'm gone....

[tod evans]

Phew!

I am attempting to change my surroundings. If you don't live here, or don't want to take part in helping change them, feel free not to visit. Not sure why a comment was needed, but that never stopped me either

Are you mistaking trying to change others behavior with changing your surroundings?

If you're living in a $#@!hole it's okay to try and clean it up until you try to throw the $#@! into my yard..

[PaulConventionWV]

For people like you who clearly don't get that this is a big deal. Clearly it didn't work, but then, I never had much hope.
The rest of us will take this as a jumping off point to talk with friends/neighbors/community members to help reduce the frequency of this crap.

There have always been and always will be people that don't care. That's why we still have criminals today. Don't you think your time would be better spent trying to eliminate murder and rape through community influence? When are you going to realize that people who do trashy things do those things because they just don't care about your influence and they're not part of your community? Why do you think the negative view toward crime in general hasn't stopped it yet? Why do you think the fact that society looks down on drug use hasn't eliminated drugs? It's because certain people just don't care.

What's more, this is not a "big deal" to anyone. Assault is a big deal. Stalking is a big deal. This is NOT a big deal. And despite the fact that those may not have been bad neighborhoods, notice the people who were doing it weren't particularly well-kept in a general sense. These are the types of people who aren't going to care if you tell your friends (who probably don't do it anyway) that this should stop.

It isn't hurting you, that's quite clear. So therefore... we should do nothing, apparently?

This isn't hurting anyone. What happened to the old saying, "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me"? Trying to change the behavior of a million other people is pointless when you can change your reaction to it and achieve the same result. I may not be a woman, but I don't have to be one in order to be able to tell that this is not hurting her. Not caring about what people say would be just as effective as going on a massive campaign to stop $#@!s from be $#@!s.

Stop implying that anyone on the other side of the issue is calling for "social engineering".

Let me define social engineering in the context of how I'm using it. When I say social engineering, I mean going on a massive witch-hunt and trying to stop people from being the way they are when you could just as easily achieve the same result by not caring about them. Unless some guy attacks a woman, I'm not concerned that he shouted a compliment at her. Social engineering is the idea that, for some reason, we need to change that. We really don't. Sure, if one of my friends did that, I would tell them it's not cool, but none of my friends do that, so I'm not going to waste precious time and resources on trying to stop it. Surely you must see how little chance there is that any one of us is going to have an impact on this behavior.

Your very last line is so telling because you put the question after the answer! What does it help to bring attention to the issue? That's the idea for how we stop thugs from cat calling! If decent men everywhere STOP thinking it is acceptable to act aggressively towards women on the sidewalk, and call out their friends/neighbors when it happens.

That's just the thing, though: decent men already know this. The people who do it are not decent. So trying to foster this awareness among decent individuals is not going to achieve anything. I put the question last because it was rhetorical.

My neighborhood, near a park, used to be covered with dog crap. Some neighbors and I made signs, put them up, and helped encourage our neighbors to pick up after their dogs. The block is now significantly less poop covered, after only 6 months.

That's great. But it's also a lot different. Decent people walk their dogs. Decent people heed the advice of other decent people. Decent people also see the benefit to them if they stop this behavior. The signs were just an acknowledgement of what they already knew to be true: that they don't like poop-covered sidewalks. Idiots who catcall already know that people like you think it's not cool, but they do it anyway. Big shocker!