hate thought crime have this guy arrested!Originally Posted by thoughtomator
A savage barbaric tribal society where thugs parade the streets and illegally assault and murder innocent civilians, yeah that is the alternative to having police. Oh wait, that is the police
We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home.
- Edward R. Murrow
...I think we have moral obligations to disobey unjust laws, because non-cooperation with evil is as much as a moral obligation as cooperation with good. - MLK Jr.
How to trigger a liberal: "I didn't get vaccinated."
Focusing on the race and background of the people harassing this woman misses the point that jonhowe is trying to make, which is that this happens in any setting at any time of day or night, and that it's still harassment. I've witnessed and heard it in respectable suburban neighborhoods. Although the racial issue is worthy of discussion (for reasons that are quite different from the ones you stated), it doesn't take anything away from or invalidate the criticism itself.
A lot of feminists that aren't the female equivalent of neckbeards (I have lots of my own issues with some self-proclaimed feminists) readily admit that men are more likely to be the victim of sex crimes. In recent times there has been a lot written about this data point. But the fact that this isn't usually discussed openly, if at all, is due to the same "patriarchal" (to borrow the term) framework that feminists readily complain about. Men are thought of as always willing to have sex (therefore they can't be raped, according to this "logic"), and male rape victims in prisons and the military are either silenced or made the butt of cultural jokes ("don't drop the soap!") - or rape becomes a revenge thing. Many intellectually honest feminists discuss these things, and a lot also ask so-called MRAs (men's rights activists) to focus on countermeasures like rape shelters for males, or changing the cultural definition of rape so that it doesn't exclude males from being victims. The Official Definition of rape was changed by the FBI to include male victims two whopping years ago!
We've already explained why any harassment has to be treated as a potential threat. I don't understand why you are choosing to ignore or dismiss this point, but the fact is, simply walking away from a catcaller can cause the situation to escalate. Bringing methods of self-defense is great advice; I know my friend has had to brandish a knife a few times, but that doesn't mean women should have their concerns dismissed with this advice.
Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just and that his justice cannot sleep forever. Thomas Jefferson
I agree that some of it is really inappropriate, insulting, and frightening. Now what?
The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.
"Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron
"Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton
Vote harder and ban it.
Well, I have a problem with the obnoxious. This does include those who don't know when to shut up, and can't take no for an answer. This also goes for those who are bound and determined to tell other people what they should like, tell them what they shouldn't like, and try to ostracize those who do like what they 'shouldn't'.'I'm not a feminist. I like men.'--Angie Dickinson
Whether this vid is an attempt to educate men to show more sensitivity, or to demonize men, or simply to convince women to be afraid of any man who likes them (so they'll get frustrated enough to try lesbianism, perhaps?) is an entirely debatable point.
All I know for sure is the easiest way to stir up a war between the sexes is to convince people there's already one underway. And, you know, ZENemy is right. We're divided and conquered enough already without that.
Part of the reason is that sex has a "market value" and women know that they can use that in order to obtain things that they want. Women are the gatekeepers of sex and men are the gatekeepers of commitment. To give sex freely is of little worth to a woman. This is why "slut-shaming" is usually done by women against other women, since a woman that gives sex freely is undercutting the competition.
"I shall bring justice to Westeros. Every man shall reap what he has sown, from the highest lord to the lowest gutter rat. They have made my kingdom bleed, and I do not forget that."
-Stannis Baratheon
Same can be said of beggars. I can't count how many times I have seen a beggar turn hostile when I declined to give them money.
There's really only a couple of ways of dealing with the issue. Either we can impose a police state, or each person needs to be responsible for looking out for their own selves.
The people who put out that video want the former solution.
I from experience know that the latter solution is the more effective one. Situational awareness and a Plan B will keep you safe. Whining that it's not fair will not keep you safe.
It really doesn't take very much experience to learn what kinds of people to steer clear of in NYC. Took me all of two months tops to learn it, so unless you just stepped off the bus, there really is no excuse. This woman was deliberately putting herself into bad situations and is whining for sympathy because for 90 seconds out of 10 hours bad things happened in bad situations.
She actually has no idea what men go through - women have it easy. A male of the same color and age walking through some those same neighborhoods would be lucky to make it through alive and in one piece.
The unfortunate reality is that there is a savage element among the desperately poor in the cities and that, not the catcalling, is the real problem here.
A more perfect comparison I cannot imagine.
Only women deserve pity in our society. Of course, most women (and I mean every woman that doesn't have a hideous disfigurement combined with a rancid stench) will never know what it is like to be truly lonely. Women have a higher sexual market value which is why they can typically date up; a female "3" will have a much easier time finding a mate than a male "3." No job? No house? No car? No worries! Not so for a male.
"I shall bring justice to Westeros. Every man shall reap what he has sown, from the highest lord to the lowest gutter rat. They have made my kingdom bleed, and I do not forget that."
-Stannis Baratheon
Yup. There is no problem that cannot be made worse by the application of more government.
The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.
"Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron
"Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton
Good news: it's not illegal and won't be illegal anytime soon, there's no way to prohibit making one time comments without infringing on free speech. There's no way to tell if a person was saying hi and being friendly vs being creepy if it was a one off shot.
pcosmar's lie : There are more votes than registered Voters..
If the man is a hot alpha stud then it was friendly. If the man is unattractive to the female then it was creepy. Women have utter contempt and absolutely no empathy for weak males.
"I shall bring justice to Westeros. Every man shall reap what he has sown, from the highest lord to the lowest gutter rat. They have made my kingdom bleed, and I do not forget that."
-Stannis Baratheon
Actually, no feminist I have seen commenting on the matter has advocated for a literal police state to combat the problem, and I see no reason to likewise assume that that is what the makers of this video want (even if they did, again, it wouldn't invalidate their concerns). Cultural pressure is generally what feminists like to talk about; i.e., (to also answer Acala's question), if people have friends who harass others, they need to sit them down and simply talk about why it's inappropriate to do so. If this sounds preposterous to you, I'll offer anecdotally that I know plenty of males on my FB who said they would be discussing these issues with their friends. A lot of people frankly have no idea that what they are doing is wrong until someone (parents or peers, depending on age and the situation) gives them a real talking-to about it. I'm (I hope not too charitably) guessing a lot of the people who post on this board are decent enough to not associate with people who behave this way, or not to raise kids who act like this, but just in case... that would be my advice. Stating bluntly that it's sort of $#@!ed up and gross to harass people and that you wouldn't remain friends with anyone who did it is a small action, but if enough people did so, it would be at least noticeably different from the current status quo.
"Do it because you want people to be better, and because you intend to hold humanity accountable for producing disgusting, petulant man-trolls who think they’re entitled to other people’s time and attention. Do it because you’re gonna stop the cycle of disgusting, petulant man-trolls right flipping now, in your own flipping life," to quote an article I read on this subject a few days ago. This is strong language that may provoke a typically defensive response, but to me, this is no different from countless libertarian-themed attempts to change people's minds re: the topic of big government. It's parallel to the philosophical activism that the namesake of this forum holds so dear.
Again, the rest of this post is mostly assumption. "She has no idea what males go through" - has she specifically spoken about the video yet, and have you personally contacted her to get her opinion? Yes, there is a violence problem in bigger cities, but this isn't a time to be hosting the Oppression Olympics right now. This is a video made about the very specific issue of catcalling, and how catcalling indeed ties into larger problems of violence and poverty. The very fact that this sort of behavior occurs across all manner of social situations and settings, however, means that catcalling and the entitlement mentality are "real problems" in and out of themselves. Catcalling specifically is not chiefly a violence and poverty problem, it's in all likelihood a breeding and cultural problem that is reinforced by popular culture and a few other forces.
Last edited by Rothbardian Girl; 10-29-2014 at 02:41 PM.
Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just and that his justice cannot sleep forever. Thomas Jefferson
Divide and conquer, how does it work? This thread is a small case study. The propaganda media is playing some of you like fiddles.
She should walk around San Francisco or Portland for 10 hours smoking a cigarette and wearing a mink stole and record the harassment/compliment ratio.
And maybe the sex of each harasser/complimenter.
Inspired by US Rep. Ron Paul of Texas, this site is dedicated to facilitating grassroots initiatives that aim to restore a sovereign limited constitutional Republic based on the rule of law, states' rights and individual rights. We seek to enshrine the original intent of our Founders to foster respect for private property, seek justice, provide opportunity, and to secure individual liberty for ourselves and our posterity.
A police state is a small price to pay for living in the freest country on earth.
Yes, unattractive men need to learn their place and not give compliments to attractive women who are obviously so much better than them.
"He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
"dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
"You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
"When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q
"Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul
"Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."
Exactly, don't go to places where people behave this way.
__________________________________________________ ________________
"A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst
Or, in this case, hideously unattractive women. She really is so homely that her promo pic is difficult to look at. That's one fugly woman - which is actually really really hard to do for a 24-year-old female in good health. Mind you, her fugliness has no relevance to any of the other points being made here, other than perhaps that low-class creeps may think they have a better shot at a butterface chick than a decent-looking one.
I am all in favor of changing culture from the bottom up. Indeed, that is the only way to bring about social change. But, frankly, I don't know a single person who would behave that way so I don't feel there is much I can do beyond saying that I can appreciate why women might object to some of this crap. Good luck.
The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.
"Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron
"Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton
I'm repeating myself, but women have a higher sexual market value than men (at least at that age). Men will typically lower their standards in order to have sex with a less attractive female than to go home alone at the end of the night. This is why women tend to get an inflated sense of sexual worth/attractiveness. A 10/10 alpha stud will use a 7/10 for sex, thereby artificially validating the woman's sense of self-worth. Of course, the alpha stud would never commit to the 7/10, since he is aiming for a 10/10. This is part of the reason women can never find a "good man." They are used to having sex with men who are above their true sexual value and have no reason to commit to a man of their level. Meanwhile, the 7/10 man who is attracted to the 7/10 female is invisible to her, so will likely have to date down. The omega men are the worst off, since even an ugly female can get laid in a pinch. However, the omega man is invisible to the world and usually end up as furries or cosplay folks.
"I shall bring justice to Westeros. Every man shall reap what he has sown, from the highest lord to the lowest gutter rat. They have made my kingdom bleed, and I do not forget that."
-Stannis Baratheon
Never listen to what women say; always watch what women do. A lot of behaviors that women say turn them off are often behaviors that attract them. This is where the Bad Boy/Nice Guy dynamic comes into play. A woman may say that she wants a stable, honest, intelligent, humorous, kind man, but ultimately such a man can only fill a boring provider role ("Beta Bucks"). Meanwhile, the man that can command a woman and play with her emotions will give her the tingles ("Alpha $#@!s").
"I shall bring justice to Westeros. Every man shall reap what he has sown, from the highest lord to the lowest gutter rat. They have made my kingdom bleed, and I do not forget that."
-Stannis Baratheon
This.
And the worst part is, most of us here know full well that The State wants to destroy the family unit, so The State can play Mommy and Daddy to everyone. And I think more than a few of us here know that, like the sheiks of Araby for the last few hundred years, the fact that more than a few women are inclined to fight over a powerful man even if they lose a few good men in the process has never bothered those in power one bit.
Yeah, the Battle of the Sexes has always been terrible. But, like democracy, the only thing worse is any of the alternatives.
A neurotic populace is easy to manipulate. If we don't watch for efforts on the part of the powers that be to make us as neurotic as they can, we are fools.
It's a force of nature and a fact of life. It, like a million other things, is something that some people naturally do well, others have to learn and some can never get. To smile and converse with a person and give them a nonthreatening casual compliment is something almost everyone on earth appreciates. Even rude catcalls are something that no small number of people dream of getting thrown their direction. I'm not changing the subject from apples to oranges, here, either. This is one topic, with varying degrees of good, bad and over the top.
Hell, the true irony is that no one can teach a boy how to do this right better than a father can, but so few families are able to stay together in the face of governmental and media opposition to the traditional family unit that dads never get the chance. Not that this bothers the government; creating the problem and then creating a string of non-solution solutions like the ones mentioned here doesn't bother the current crop of powers that be one bit.
RG, surely there's a better way to address liberal concerns than abandoning liberty principles 'just this once' (not that you've only advocated this sort of thing only once). I know I've always found libertarian principles to lead to better solutions myself--and can almost always convince a liberal of the same.
Last edited by acptulsa; 10-29-2014 at 03:52 PM.
Everyone knows that women "check out" other women just as much, if not more than men.
Here's an interesting case. There was a city that put a ton of money into revitalizing this particular street with restaurants and bars on it. It never was a slum, just kind of neglected. It became very popular. The more crowded it became, the more of a bad element showed up, harassing women on that popular street. Police had trouble keeping up with it, and as you suggested, many people stopped going there, especially women. Kind of a shame how a few bad apples could ruin economic development like that.
"Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
"Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
"Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
"Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
Proponent of real science.
The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.
Upon giving this more thought... I think there should be a clarification of the different types of behavior on display here...
- There is threatening behavior which should never be tolerated and is never acceptable (carrying of weapons would help individuals om these circumstances feel more secure)
- There is rude or uncouth behavior which can rise to threatening, but most of the time it doesn't and is harmless...
- Then there is just being overly friendly or outgoing.
In the OP, most of the behavior displayed was friendly or just uncouth.
__________________________________________________ ________________
"A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst
Look, I'm just as much of a fan of economic analysis as anyone you'll ever meet, but there are several situations that cannot adequately be analyzed through the lens of simple supply and demand. Sex is one of those things. Essentially casting women as the supply curve and men as the demand curve is extremely reductive because it treats women as objects and ignores the myriad individual variations in sexual or relationship preferences. A more apt analogy is to consider men and women as independent agents rather than as a simple producer-consumer relationship.
The market for sex is more accurately a barter economy that happens to be terribly inefficient. It isn't that women set their standards (or price) too high, it's that in a barter economy, there is no medium of exchange and thus the task is to find a partner that is both desirable and reciprocates that desire. Using this analysis, we avoid oversimplification and pave the way for some libertarian solutions, the biggest one of which is dating sites (they reduce transaction costs).
Suggesting that women heighten their standards, thereby encouraging "good men" to develop into their possible partners is analogous to suggesting that women form a cartel in which the agreement is to "not settle for bad men," but as we all know from Micro 101, there is an incentive for members of this cartel to defect; in other words, settle. So there will never be a solution to this ill that supposedly plagues society.
The final problem with the usual "economics of sex" argument is that it ends up arguing that the men who pay the highest price for sex (marrying, "settling down") are the best men, but this is obviously biased and doesn't take people's wide sexual preferences into account. Essentially what this analysis is saying is that the best men hire the most expensive prostitutes.
Last edited by Rothbardian Girl; 10-29-2014 at 03:24 PM.
Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just and that his justice cannot sleep forever. Thomas Jefferson
Hillary 2016!
Actually, it's worse than that. Men will also be convinced that voting for Hillary and "going against men" is a good thing.
This was a somewhat revealing analysis from a leftist on how the demonization actually works:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...and-code-words
"Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
"Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
"Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
"Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
Proponent of real science.
The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.
And any grabbing or blocking a person is in that first category.
"Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
"Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
"Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
"Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
Proponent of real science.
The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.
The demographic is poor and uneducated. In Manhattan, that's mostly blacks and hispanics. In parts of queens and brooklyn it comes from all over the world and in all colors.
I'll admit you don't get much of THIS kind of harassment in Chinatown or Koreatown, though.
The more prohibitions you have,
the less virtuous people will be.
The more weapons you have,
the less secure people will be.
The more subsidies you have,
the less self-reliant people will be.
Therefore the Master says:
I let go of the law,
and people become honest.
I let go of economics,
and people become prosperous.
I let go of religion,
and people become serene.
I let go of all desire for the common good,
and the good becomes common as grass.
-Tao Te Ching, Section 57
Indeed. Explicit threats or repeated harassments are already illegal, anything short is protected speech.
pcosmar's lie : There are more votes than registered Voters..
That is criminal. They should be prosecuted.
"Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
"Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
"Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
"Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
Proponent of real science.
The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.
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