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Thread: Rand Paul just gave one of the most important foreign policy speeches in decades

  1. #1

    Rand Paul just gave one of the most important foreign policy speeches in decades

    http://www.vox.com/2014/10/24/705356...-policy-speech

    Sen. Rand Paul just gave one of the most important speeches on foreign policy since George W. Bush declared war on Iraq. But instead of declaring war on another country, Paul declared war on his own party. Or, at least, its entire approach to foreign policy.

    In his address last night at the Center for the National Interest — a think tank founded by Richard Nixon — Paul gave, for the first time, a comprehensive picture of how he thinks about foreign policy. His moderate non-interventionism is a far cry from his father's absolutist desire for America to exit the world stage. But Paul's stance is light years away from the hyper-hawk neoconservatism that's dominated Republican foreign policy thinking for decades.

    Paul is signaling that, when he runs for president in 2016, he isn't going to move toward the Republican foreign policy consensus; he's going to run at it, with a battering ram. If he wins, he could remake the Republican Party as we know it. But if he loses, this speech may well be the reason.
    [...]
    In the abstract, this doesn't tell you a whole lot about what Paul believes. But when he gives specific examples of where he agrees and disagrees with Obama's policy, the core idea becomes clearer: Paul wants to scale down American commitments to foreign wars.

    Paul endorses the original decision to invade Afghanistan, but criticizes Obama's decision to escalate it. He savaged the Libya intervention, calling Libya today "a jihadist wonderland." He supports bombing ISIS, but blasted Obama's decision to arm the Syrian rebels: "the weapons are either indiscriminately given to 'less than moderate rebels' or simply taken from moderates by ISIS."

    But Paul also, much more quietly, agrees with major parts of the Obama agenda. In a move that's bound to infuriate Republican hardliners, he's calling for negotiations with Iran over its nuclear program. He tacitly endorsed Obama's sanction-and-negotiate approach to the Ukraine crisis. And he called for a peaceful, cooperative relationship with China.

    In Paul's ideal world, America only very rarely engages in war. Most of its relations with foreign powers are conducted via diplomacy and trade with other states. This is hardly a detailed theory of how to conduct American foreign policy, but it is absolutely a conservative vision for ramping down America's role in the world.

    The Obama-bashing reveals Paul's real target: the GOP


    Paul's agenda has a lot more in common with Barack Obama's view of the world than it does with, say, John McCain's. But his speech very cleverly played up the criticisms of Obama, and minimized the points of agreement. That's because the basic goal of the speech was to teach conservatives that they can oppose foreign wars and Democrats at the same time.

    The real target of Paul's speech were the neoconservatives: the wing of the GOP that believes that American foreign policy should be about the aggressive use of American force and influence, be it against terrorist groups or Russia. Paul's unsubtle argument is that this view, dominant in the GOP, is a departure from what a conservative foreign policy ought to be.

    His tactic for selling this argument is innovative. He's reframed arguments with neoconservatives as arguments with Obama, banking on the idea that he can get everyday Republicans to abandon hawkishness altogether if they see Obama as a hawk. "After the tragedies of Iraq and Libya, Americans are right to expect more from their country when we go to war," Paul said, clearly linking his critique of Obama to an attack on the Bush legacy.

    Until this speech, Paul's 2016 foreign policy positions hadn't been clear. Now it is. Rand "clearly wants a more restrained US foreign policy," says Dan McCarthy, the editor of The American Conservative magazine. According to McCarthy, who's talked about these issues with Paul's staff, Paul has been engaged in a "trial and error" experiment. The idea is to figure out how to make a less aggressive foreign policy politically viable in the Republican Party.

    After this speech, the testing phase appears to be over. According to his advisors, this speech represents the final, overarching framework for Paul's worldview. Rand has developed a strategy for wrenching conservatives away from the Bush legacy, and it's now a question of implementing it.

    The stakes in the Paul-GOP fight are tectonic

    Paul is setting the terms of the 2016 election. So far, every plausible Republican nominee who's spoken about foreign policy has taken a more hawkish tack. Paul has picked a fight on foreign policy, and now he's going to get one.

    The Republican primary, then, will be at least partly a referendum on the future of Republican foreign policy. If Paul wins the primary — let alone the presidency — then the GOP and its elected officials will have to line up behind him. That will mean defending his foreign policy against Democrats, who will likely blast Paul from an interventionist point of view.

    "Paul's been clear about his goal," DNC Press Secretary Michael Czin told reporters before the speech. "He wants to see America retreat from our responsibilities around the world." A Paul primary win would force Republicans around the country to line up behind Paul's non-interventionism against these attacks. It might also lead the Democratic Party to become more hawkish as it unites against Paul's philosophies — and that's particularly true if Hillary Clinton, who is already on the more hawkish side of the Democratic spectrum, is the nominee.

    "Rand is the first guy," McCarthy says, "to have a chance to come in and do something different than what our foreign policy has been doing in 70 or more years." He's not wrong.

    Rand Paul: The Case for Foreign-Policy "Realism"
    Rand Paul | October 24, 2014
    http://reason.com/archives/2014/10/2...eign-policy-re

    ETA video:

    Last edited by Lucille; 10-25-2014 at 10:32 AM.
    Based on the idea of natural rights, government secures those rights to the individual by strictly negative intervention, making justice costless and easy of access; and beyond that it does not go. The State, on the other hand, both in its genesis and by its primary intention, is purely anti-social. It is not based on the idea of natural rights, but on the idea that the individual has no rights except those that the State may provisionally grant him. It has always made justice costly and difficult of access, and has invariably held itself above justice and common morality whenever it could advantage itself by so doing.
    --Albert J. Nock



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  3. #2
    the basic goal of the speech was to teach conservatives that they can oppose foreign wars and Democrats at the same time.
    And that's why it's going to work. He's not going against Obama or the GOP - he's laying down the gauntlet against the establishment of both parties.

    Remember that they're going to come out swinging... Time to make sure we have his back.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  4. #3
    "Paul's been clear about his goal," DNC Press Secretary Michael Czin told reporters before the speech. "He wants to see America retreat from our responsibilities around the world."
    So did the DNC just go and hire the GOP staff after Bush left office? Just hire their scriptwriters?

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    So did the DNC just go and hire the GOP staff after Bush left office? Just hire their scriptwriters?
    Lol... How perfect, though, right?!

    Exposes both faces of the establishment at once.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Lol... How perfect, though, right?!

    Exposes both faces of the establishment at once.
    Even better was this same guy a couple months ago in response to Randal's WSJ editorial:
    Below please find a response from DNC National Press Secretary Michael Czin to Paul’s vision:

    “It’s disappointing that Rand Paul, as a Senator and a potential presidential candidate, blames America for all the problems in the world, while offering reckless ideas that would only alienate us from the global community.

    “Unfortunately, this is nothing new for Paul. Last week he criticized American policy to the president of another country on foreign soil. This week he’s blaming the Obama Administration for another nation’s civil war. That type of “blame America” rhetoric may win Paul accolades at a conference of isolationists but it does nothing to improve our standing in the world. In fact, Paul’s proposals would make America less safe and less secure.

    “Simply put, if Rand Paul had a foreign policy slogan, it would be – The Rand Paul Doctrine: Blame America. Retreat from the World.”
    seriously, at least people that voted for Bush and his humble foreign policy had the "9/11 changed everything" excuse. The people that voted for Obama don't even have that.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    Even better was this same guy a couple months ago in response to Randal's WSJ editorial:

    seriously, at least people that voted for Bush and his humble foreign policy had the "9/11 changed everything" excuse. The people that voted for Obama don't even have that.
    It's clear that Hillary's people are scared to death of Rand Paul. Their line of attack is going to be that he is dangerous and his worldview would cause another 9-11.

    The problem with that is that he can easily ask people if the world is a safer place now. And if they go back to the time before 9-11 to try to draw a distinction, guess who was in office then?

    Lol. This is going to be a fun few years!
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  8. #7
    We can’t retreat from the world, but we can’t remake it in our own image either.--Rand Paul
    This one's worth spreading around. In fact, this will be my response to everyone I hear calling a non-interventionalist an 'isolationist'.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Lol. This is going to be a fun few years!
    If I wasn't already working on enough nonpaying side projects, I might be ambitious enough to take this Michael Czin douche's comments and find the DNC responses to those same lines when GOP spin artists were saying them. And links to the GOP people saying the exact same things in the first place. would be a fun little write-up even if time consuming.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    And that's why it's going to work. He's not going against Obama or the GOP - he's laying down the gauntlet against the establishment of both parties.

    Remember that they're going to come out swinging... Time to make sure we have his back.
    Well said!
    Original supporter of Ron Paul since 2007 and lifelong supporter of liberty and the Constitution. I stand with Rand.

  12. #10
    I remember seeing Rand Paul on TV with a journalist at a focus group following one of the GOP debates in 2011-12, discussing how Ron was received on foreign policy issues. When the results showed the group was swayed more by interventionist catch phrases, Rand remarked, "I see we have our work cut out for us." I think Rand has not forgotten the problem that neo-cons have set the emotional table of "we're under a threat, we have to fight back!" as the main framework for foreign policy.

    Accordingly, Rand has been working hard to finesse that framework (instead of trying to combat its emotionalism head on with reason, as Ron did with almost no success). I would say Rand's approach is still incomplete, in that he de-emphasizes or avoids the role of covert activity in creating the pretexts to justify ongoing intervention (false flags and black ops, training and funding Al Qaeda and ISIS, etc). Countering the fear based "we're being threatened" with an anger based, "no, we've been lied to about a threat" is the best way to battle the pro-war framework.

    Notice how well the "we were lied to about Iraq's WMDs" line worked, compared to any other anti-interventionist method of challenging the War Party. If Rand could simply ping on that, we would be well on the way to deflating the "threat, threat, threat" framing rhetoric of the establishment.
    Last edited by Peace&Freedom; 10-24-2014 at 11:01 AM.
    -----Peace & Freedom, John Clifton-----
    Blog: https://electclifton.wordpress.com/2...back-backlash/

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    It's clear that Hillary's people are scared to death of Rand Paul. Their line of attack is going to be that he is dangerous and his worldview would cause another 9-11.

    The problem with that is that he can easily ask people if the world is a safer place now. And if they go back to the time before 9-11 to try to draw a distinction, guess who was in office then?

    Lol. This is going to be a fun few years!
    Even the establishment with all it's money and power can't keep running away from the truth forever. They have been running away from this ever since 9/11 basically. 2016 is in my opinion going to be the turning point. The point at which their arguments have become old and the people at large stop accepting them. That is the point at which they will make one last stand on their flawed arguments and non-existant principles. That is the moment 'we' can have a landslide victory over the establishment. Best part about it, they are, like always, digging their own hole. At this point, metaphorically speaking the hole has been dug deep enough that there is no more climbing out of it, they can only dig it deeper until it collapses.

    What this means in practical terms is that 'we' have to go head to head with these arguments, don't shrink away from them because 'we' fear the uninformed masses. Even the masses at some change their opinion, not out of logic but simply because human development, culture and politics have never been static. These are all highly dynamic and the population will follow the trend-lines.

    'Our' only disadvantage is that politics is not about bringing truth but kneading the masses into taking your message as gospel. If we want to win we will have to find a way to mould our message in such away that it can be perceived as gospel, totally convincing people of the need to join us and vote for our cause. We have to do this in a manner that does not betray our principals, this in fact is the hardest part about getting liberty-in whatever form- elected.

    This is certainly going to be fun and as long as we will keep having fun there is absolutely nothing to keep our spirits down, which is vital in getting elected. Nobody votes for someone who doesn't breathe winning. Well, except for 'us' here maybe.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Peace&Freedom View Post
    Countering the fear based "we're being threatened" with an anger based, "no, we've been lied to about a threat" is the best way to battle the pro-war framework.

    Notice how well the "we were lied to about Iraq's WMDs" line worked, compared to any other anti-interventionist method of challenging the War Party. If Rand could simply ping on that, we would be well on the way to deflating the "threat, threat, threat" framing rhetoric of the establishment.
    Interesting, but I think that approach is best left to the left wing. Allow the Democrats to make that point, while making the point of a more measured response. It'll work better in a GOP primary, but your approach will help in the general.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  15. #13
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
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  16. #14
    I think Rand should be stronger if we get attacked like...

    "We should mind our own business, but if a country or organization attacks us first, we will respond by bombing and killing them, kill their families/friends and destroy their homes and living. Kill all of them."

    I believe in a strong response if someone does try to do something or attack USA, but we should be neutral for the majority of the time. I believe if we go to war, we gotta win. War is about killing people until the people don't want to fight anymore. Not $#@!ing nation building and worrying about casualties (which increases the time we are at war).

    Let's say in 1 year, we don't care about civilian casaulties. We kill 100,000 innocent people to defeat/kill our enemy during that year, but we achieve victory. I think that is way better than being very careful, and maybe kill 1,000 civilians a year for the next 10 years (10,000 total). WHY? Would you want to live in constant fear for the next 10 years? Worrying about getting droned or airstriked. Worrying about "terrorists" setting road bombs meant for the invading force, but instead you or a love one get's killed by accident by the road bomb? I know we don't deliberately target civlians, but we shouldn't worry about them too much.

    Living in fear for 1 year or Living in fear for 10 years? Your pick.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    "People talk peace, but men give their life's work to war. It won't stop 'til there is as much brains and scientific study put to aid peace as there is to promote war."--Will Rogers 1929
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    'Proposals for promoting the peace of the world will have careful consideration. But we are not a people who are always seeking for a sign. We know that peace comes from honesty and fair dealing, from moderation, and a generous regard for the rights of others. The heart of the Nation is more important than treaties.'--Calvin Coolidge
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    "We will never have true civilization until we have learned to recognize the rights of others."--Will Rogers 1923
    Generations of Americans used the phrase 'peace and prosperity'. These days it seems like we've not only lost sight of the true fact that peace leads to prosperity, but to the fact that peace is more desirable even than prosperity--it saves the lives of our sons, and any Christian should be able to recognize that it isn't as hard on the soul as being a part of a community that's busy spending all its resources kicking some other community's asses. What the $#@! happened?

    This is 'progress'? Progressing down the garden path--traveling down the road to hell, whatever it amy be paved with--is 'progress'?

    I think the 'we've been lied to' approach has merit. But to me, the biggest problem with the approach our opponents mischaracterize as the 'Blame America First' dialog is that no one is following up by finding an effective way to ask, what kind of monsters have we become?

    I don't want Rand Paul to do this, as I don't see a way to do it and win. But it's high time somebody started asking that question and making it stick. And I think Sen. Paul's engaged but not remaking in our image statement opens the door for us to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    "It always will seem funny to us United Staters that we are about the only ones that really know how to do everything right. I don't know how a lot of these other nations have existed as long as they have 'til we could get some of our people around and show them really how to be pure and good like us."--Will Rogers 1932
    Last edited by acptulsa; 10-24-2014 at 03:47 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

  18. #16
    Im glad he stepped up and made some clear distinctions at this crucial point in history regarding his foreign policy. I don't particularly like playing along with some of the CIA/media created charades such as 'ISIS' but I understand why he's doing it at this time. He's very good and this speech needed to be made, since both party establishments are tripping over themselves to prove how hawkish they are.

    (note: lots of trolls starting $#@! on this thread in later pages....they must be worried)
    Last edited by devil21; 10-26-2014 at 02:15 PM.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by alucard13mm View Post
    I think Rand should be stronger if we get attacked like...

    "We should mind our own business, but if a country or organization attacks us first, we will respond by bombing and killing them, kill their families/friends and destroy their homes and living. Kill all of them."

    I believe in a strong response if someone does try to do something or attack USA, but we should be neutral for the majority of the time. I believe if we go to war, we gotta win. War is about killing people until the people don't want to fight anymore. Not $#@!ing nation building and worrying about casualties (which increases the time we are at war).

    Let's say in 1 year, we don't care about civilian casaulties. We kill 100,000 innocent people to defeat/kill our enemy during that year, but we achieve victory. I think that is way better than being very careful, and maybe kill 1,000 civilians a year for the next 10 years (10,000 total). WHY? Would you want to live in constant fear for the next 10 years? Worrying about getting droned or airstriked. Worrying about "terrorists" setting road bombs meant for the invading force, but instead you or a love one get's killed by accident by the road bomb? I know we don't deliberately target civlians, but we shouldn't worry about them too much.

    Living in fear for 1 year or Living in fear for 10 years? Your pick.
    Sounds great! What about the part where after that 1 year is over, you would have created even MORE enemies for yourself. Do you think 100,000 people can go missing without anyone noticing or wanting revenge? Actions have consequences. You seem to have forgotten to discuss about the consequences part. Unless you are talking about outright genocide. Kill every last one of them on earth. But then again, I'm sure there will be blow back from that as well.

  21. #18
    This is going to be interesting, most candidates from the GOP have to shift positions between the primary and the general election. I don't see Rand having to do anything like that yet.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by twomp View Post
    Sounds great! What about the part where after that 1 year is over, you would have created even MORE enemies for yourself. Do you think 100,000 people can go missing without anyone noticing or wanting revenge? Actions have consequences. You seem to have forgotten to discuss about the consequences part. Unless you are talking about outright genocide. Kill every last one of them on earth. But then again, I'm sure there will be blow back from that as well.
    Blowback arguments preach to the choir, they don't change minds, as they don't challenge the pro-intervention framework. If you're under the "we were attacked, so we've got to fight back!" spell, you don't care about blowback, just as if you are the victim of a crime, you don't care about the motivation of the criminal. The main issue for you is getting the bad guy, and you view people who bring up "understanding the perpetrator" as morons who are majoring in the minors. This is why Ron Paul got basically nowhere with Republican voters on the issue, in two sets of primaries---he sounded like he was not properly responding to geopolitical threats.

    To fight the pro-war framework, you have to challenge its legitimacy. You have to say THERE IS NO THREAT, the wars are based on lies, in reply to the emotions raised by the "we're under a threat" side, which drown out reason. Measured words are not enough, to fight off the emotional call for retaliation. "Pleasure and revenge/ Have ears more deaf than adders to the voice/ Of any true decision." Rand has to change the emotions surrounding current foreign policy to get it out of the pro-war zone, not finesse the issue on their home turf.
    -----Peace & Freedom, John Clifton-----
    Blog: https://electclifton.wordpress.com/2...back-backlash/

  23. #20
    There isn't a single other Republican who's going to be running in 2016 who even has a remotely decent foreign policy, from what I can see. Rand is going to be on his own in promoting a foreign policy that isn't just completely belligerent.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by twomp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by alucard13mm View Post
    Let's say in 1 year, we don't care about civilian casaulties. We kill 100,000 innocent people to defeat/kill our enemy during that year, but we achieve victory. I think that is way better than being very careful, and maybe kill 1,000 civilians a year for the next 10 years (10,000 total). WHY? Would you want to live in constant fear for the next 10 years? Worrying about getting droned or airstriked. Worrying about "terrorists" setting road bombs meant for the invading force, but instead you or a love one get's killed by accident by the road bomb? I know we don't deliberately target civlians, but we shouldn't worry about them too much.

    Living in fear for 1 year or Living in fear for 10 years? Your pick.
    Sounds great! What about the part where after that 1 year is over, you would have created even MORE enemies for yourself. Do you think 100,000 people can go missing without anyone noticing or wanting revenge? Actions have consequences. You seem to have forgotten to discuss about the consequences part. Unless you are talking about outright genocide. Kill every last one of them on earth. But then again, I'm sure there will be blow back from that as well.
    I will never understand people who think they can sanely do utilitarian "calculus" when it comes to killing innocents (especially the ones who are able to twist themselves into imagining that it's really what "you" would want if "you" were one of the innocents).
    The Bastiat Collection · FREE PDF · FREE EPUB · PAPER
    Frédéric Bastiat (1801-1850)

    • "When law and morality are in contradiction to each other, the citizen finds himself in the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense, or of losing his respect for the law."
      -- The Law (p. 54)
    • "Government is that great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
      -- Government (p. 99)
    • "[W]ar is always begun in the interest of the few, and at the expense of the many."
      -- Economic Sophisms - Second Series (p. 312)
    • "There are two principles that can never be reconciled - Liberty and Constraint."
      -- Harmonies of Political Economy - Book One (p. 447)

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  25. #22
    I say bring it on if the Democrats want to take the neocon/warmongering position on foreign policy against Rand. Rand will clean their clock and completely transform the political landscape.

    http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/rand-paul...foreign-policy

    Democrats, preparing for a likely run by former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, are already signaling that they’ll use Paul’s foreign policy pronouncements over the years to portray him as an isolationist kook. “Paul’s been clear about his goal: he wants to see America retreat from our responsibilities around the world,” Democratic National Committee spokesman Michael Czin said in a statement before Paul’s speech. “That includes support for a fringe proposal to end our membership in the United Nations, ending all aid to our allies like Israel and slashing programs that help developing nations combat major public health crises.”

  26. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    There isn't a single other Republican who's going to be running in 2016 who even has a remotely decent foreign policy, from what I can see. Rand is going to be on his own in promoting a foreign policy that isn't just completely belligerent.
    Ted Cruz? How do Rand and Ted differ on foreign policy now, in actual VOTES? Same with Mike Huckabee? Ben Carson? Even Chris Christie? The neo-cons have co-opted EVERYTHING since President Obama was elected, and are acting all (fake) conservative now.

    The voters are ignorant, and don't think. They do as instructed by the media figures they watch and listen to. And, I don't see anything to show me that the media is on "our" side.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    This one's worth spreading around. In fact, this will be my response to everyone I hear calling a non-interventionalist an 'isolationist'.
    Rand Paul is not a non-interventionist.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by jjdoyle View Post
    Ted Cruz? How do Rand and Ted differ on foreign policy now, in actual VOTES? Same with Mike Huckabee? Ben Carson? Even Chris Christie? The neo-cons have co-opted EVERYTHING since President Obama was elected, and are acting all (fake) conservative now.

    The voters are ignorant, and don't think. They do as instructed by the media figures they watch and listen to. And, I don't see anything to show me that the media is on "our" side.
    Cruz is much more hawkish towards Iran and won't say whether or not it was a good idea to invade Iraq. Rand has said that the Iraq War was a huge mistake and is also much more supportive of diplomacy with Iran than Cruz. Cruz wants to blow up the negotiations and impose new sanctions on them immediately and possibly attack them. Rand also has made it clear recently that he ultimately supports phasing out all foreign aid, while Cruz has said that we should increase aid to Israel. That's probably just a start.

  30. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    Cruz is much more hawkish towards Iran and won't say whether or not it was a good idea to invade Iraq. Rand has said that the Iraq War was a huge mistake and is also much more supportive of diplomacy with Iran than Cruz. Cruz wants to blow up the negotiations and impose new sanctions on them immediately and possibly attack them. Rand also has made it clear recently that he ultimately supports phasing out all foreign aid, while Cruz has said that we should increase aid to Israel. That's probably just a start.
    Saying and doing. What difference in votes do they have? Rand voted for MORE foreign aid to Israel, just like very other Senator.
    Rand talked about blowback, but ignores ONE of the THREE main reasons given for the attack on 9/11 by voting for MORE aid to Israel?

    Rand talked about a bankrupt nation in this, and voted for MORE foreign aid to Israel?

    Rand needs a speech coach IMO that gives him better talking points on foreign policy, and that doesn't RUN from what his dad's CONSTITUTIONAL position was.
    Foreign aid to Israel. Sanctions on Russia. Supporting airstrikes on ISIS/ISIL/CIA-DUH.

    Ben Carson was against Iraq, and apparently even against going into Afghanistan:
    http://dailycaller.com/2013/03/19/be...icy-positions/

    So no, if someone like Carson or Cruz run in 2016, Rand won't be the only Republican that
    "even has a remotely decent foreign policy"
    .

    At least on paper. Which is why he needs to separate himself from others, and he hasn't been doing that, especially with the things I listed above.

  31. #27
    There aren't hardly any votes in the Senate anymore, since Harry Reid has essentially shut down the Senate and doesn't allow votes on hardly anything.

    There was no roll call vote on foreign aid to Israel. There was a bill that passed by voice vote, which means that Rand didn't object to it. It would've been absolutely pointless since no other Senator would've voted against it.

    He's also said that we should cut and end foreign aid to countries that are hostile to us and then phase out foreign aid to Israel over time. So even if he voted for temporary foreign aid to Israel, that wouldn't go against his position that we should eventually phase out foreign aid to Israel as well.

  32. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    There aren't hardly any votes in the Senate anymore, since Harry Reid has essentially shut down the Senate and doesn't allow votes on hardly anything.

    There was no roll call vote on foreign aid to Israel. There was a bill that passed by voice vote, which means that Rand didn't object to it. It would've been absolutely pointless since no other Senator would've voted against it.

    He's also said that we should cut and end foreign aid to countries that are hostile to us and then phase out foreign aid to Israel over time. So even if he voted for temporary foreign aid to Israel, that wouldn't go against his position that we should eventually phase out foreign aid to Israel as well.
    But Rand said it himself that he voted for more foreign aid to Israel, so he voted "Yea" in the vote. He said it from his own mouth. And if it is absolutely pointless to vote "Nay", because everybody else is voting "Yea", we might as well call their oath to the Constitution pointless as well. Because we know 98%+ of them don't even consider the Constitution when voting and don't actually read the bills.

    The reason for voting "Nay", is because then you are principled. You can point to the $17+ trillion of debt, and say that is your reason. Rand can't do that, because he's "playing the game". It's beyond ridiculous.

    Perhaps Rand should have done like Ron, and suggested, or even introduced a bill in the Senate, where the Senators could donate their salaries to Israel for the next 6 years, instead of tax payers having to pay for lousy Senators AND foreign aid. Israel would still get $51,000,000, and it would be coming from the 50 people in DC that love it so much more than you and me, and the U.S. Constitution that they took an oath to.

    At least then I would be somewhat happy knowing my Senators might actually have to work to support their families, and maybe spend time away from DC doing so, doing less harm to the country.

  33. #29

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Landon View Post
    Tube?

    - ML
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Transcript:

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...s-(transcript)
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

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