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Thread: The Eucharist is unbiblical

  1. #1

    The Eucharist is unbiblical

    THE SACRAMENT OF HOLY COMMUNION. The R.C.C. believes and teaches that the priest has been given the authority and power by the Lord to change the bread and wine of the communion into the actual, physical body and blood of the Lord Jesus Christ:


    “When our Lord instituted the blessed Eucharist, He said: ‘Do this for a commemoration of me’ (Luke 22:19), and by these words He gave power and commission to His apostles and their successors to do what He had done - namely, to change bread and wine into His body and blood, and to administer the same to others. It is in the Mass that this change is made - it is made in the name and by the power of Christ. In His name, the priest says: ‘This is my body, this is my blood;’ and in the very same instant in which these words are pronounced, the bread and wine become, by virtue of a divine power, the body and blood of Christ. The appearances, indeed, remain the same as before, but the substance is changed. This is called transubstantiation.”(10)


    “If any one shall deny (states the Council of Trent) that the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and therefore the whole Christ, are truly, really and substantially contained in the sacrament of the Holy Eucharist, let him be accursed” (Conc. Trid., Sess. 13, de Euchar, can. 1)(11)


    “The Mass is the unbloody sacrifice of the body and blood of Christ, offered on our altars under the appearances of bread and wine, to commemorate and continue the sacrifice of the cross.”(12)


    Nowhere is this ever taught in the Bible. In fact, Jesus clearly stated that we are to eat the bread and drink the wine only in remembrance of Him (1 Cor. 11:23-26). The bread and the wine are only symbolic of the body of Christ that was broken for us and His blood that was shed on the cross. The Bible clearly teaches that Christ is not to be offered again - that He gave Himself once as a final and perfect offering on the cross, after which He rose from the dead and ascended to heaven from where He will only return at His second coming (Acts 1:11).


    Nor did He (Jesus) enter heaven to offer Himself again and again …” (Heb. 9:25).
    “Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins (This points to the Jewish Old Testament animal sacrifices). But when this Priest (Jesus) had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, He sat down at the right hand of God” (Heb. 10:11,12) [Explanations added].


    “Because by one sacrifice He has made perfect forever those who are being made holy” (Heb. 10:14).

    For Christ died for sins once for all … to bring you to God” (1 Pet. 3:18).


    Not only does the Bible teach clearly that Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross was final and complete, but the Word emphatically warns us not to offer Jesus again:


    “… to their loss they are crucifying (offering) the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to public disgrace” (Heb. 6:6)





    http://www.uwitness.net/religion-art...atholic-church

    Notice the bolded verses, which clearly teach that Jesus' sacrifice was a one time completed event. Jesus can not and will not come down from Heaven to be offered over and over again, which clearly contradicts Scripture. There is no need or reason to do this anyway- none.
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.



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  3. #2
    In 1 Jn.4:2-3 it says “Every Spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God” this means only once he incarnated. John is writing after the resurrection In Greek this denotes a continuous action from the past continuing through to the future. In other words, the same body that Jesus took at the incarnation is the same body He resurrected in and dwells in forever. He does not become many little wafers or bodies, being called down from heaven by a priest to be ingested and come out the digestive track (I’m sorry to be so descriptive) He came in the flesh only once he rose in the flesh and continues in a flesh body throughout eternity. He doesn’t put His power or grace in inanimate objects. Grace comes from the person of the Father and Jesus Christ just as the scripture states. Catholics need to trust in God’s word to have the truth, not in their Catechism or traditions.
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

  4. #3
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

  5. #4
    Why does anything in the OP mean that the eucharist is unbiblical though? Isn't the eucharist the same thing as the Lord's Supper, which Christians are told in the Bible to observe until He comes?

  6. #5
    Hey Kevin, serious question. How do you feel about homosexuality?
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  7. #6
    I have the OP on ignore, so all's I can see is the headline. The simple answer is that it is an incorrect claim. Jesus disagrees with the OP:

    Quote Originally Posted by Luke 22:19-20
    And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me." In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you."
    IDK about y'all, but I say Jesus > Kevin any day.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Why does anything in the OP mean that the eucharist is unbiblical though? Isn't the eucharist the same thing as the Lord's Supper, which Christians are told in the Bible to observe until He comes?
    Yes. (though in the literal sense-body and blood, as He called it)
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    I have the OP on ignore, so all's I can see is the headline. The simple answer is that it is an incorrect claim. Jesus disagrees with the OP:


    IDK about y'all, but I say Jesus > Kevin any day.
    I'm sure Jesus meant it literally, just like the passover charoset is totally actual brick and mortar
    Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. -Douglas Hofstadter

    Life, Liberty, Logic



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  11. #9
    Not all churches teach that view of Eucharist. For many churches, the bread and cup represent the body and blood of Christ. They do not become them.
    #NashvilleStrong

    “I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by tobismom View Post
    Not all churches teach that view of Eucharist. For many churches, the bread and cup represent the body and blood of Christ. They do not become them.
    I realize that
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    I have the OP on ignore, so all's I can see is the headline. The simple answer is that it is an incorrect claim. Jesus disagrees with the OP:


    IDK about y'all, but I say Jesus > Kevin any day.
    I don't want to speak for Kevin, but it seems to me he's talking specifically about transubstantiation....not simply about communion as a remembrance of what Jesus did for us, which most churches do.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    I don't want to speak for Kevin, but it seems to me he's talking specifically about transubstantiation....not simply about communion as a remembrance of what Jesus did for us, which most churches do.
    yep.
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by tobismom View Post
    Not all churches teach that view of Eucharist. For many churches, the bread and cup represent the body and blood of Christ. They do not become them.
    Yup. Only the EOC and RCC believe in Transubstantiation, AFAIK.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  16. #14
    I'm pretty sure the bible will never accomplish "Peace Through Religion". Just look at how it's followers are always at each others' throats.

    Anyways, it reminded me of a song.



  17. #15
    It's strange how someone criticizing my family's religion wants to make me embrace it more. This strategy doesn't work if you are looking to turn people away from Catholicism--and I'm agnostic.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by fr33 View Post
    I'm pretty sure the bible will never accomplish "Peace Through Religion". Just look at how it's followers are always at each others' throats.

    Anyways, it reminded me of a song.


    Jesus didn't promise peace until his return. Matthew 10:34-35, for one example. He commanded people to be peaceful, but getting them to do it is a different thing altogether.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12



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  20. #17
    Nowhere is this ever taught in the Bible. In fact, Jesus clearly stated that we are to eat the bread and drink the wine only in remembrance of Him (1 Cor. 11:23-26). The bread and the wine are only symbolic of the body of Christ that was broken for us and His blood that was shed on the cross. The Bible clearly teaches that Christ is not to be offered again - that He gave Himself once as a final and perfect offering on the cross, after which He rose from the dead and ascended to heaven from where He will only return at His second coming (Acts 1:11).
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

  21. #18
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

  22. #19
    Kevin, I really would like an answer.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    I don't want to speak for Kevin, but it seems to me he's talking specifically about transubstantiation....not simply about communion as a remembrance of what Jesus did for us, which most churches do.
    Except all the historical writings going down to the first century as well as the stated beliefs of the Church Fathers also going down to the first century (not to forget what Christ Himself explicitly taught!) disagrees with you in this regard.

    The fact is that the interpretation you have chosen with regards to the Eucharist as being only a 'symbol' did not come about until the Reformation. The Eucharist (on the Lord's Day, meaning Sunday) was always the center of worship for the early Church and believed to be the real presence of Christ before them. They also believed that by partaking of His Body and Blood (a very guarded event) was a mystical actualization of communion with Christ and partaking in the eschaton and Kingdom of Heaven. The scholars of early Christian history all agree to this fact (of course, you will find some here and there who ignore all the available evidence and come up with theories in order to push their own presuppositions, but these are few). If someone truly wished to learn the truth, then that fact should make them question themself. Or, perhaps not! Comfort and convenience sometime trumps the diligent searching for the truth unfortunately! But for those who refuse to ignore history and the teachings which go back for 2000 years and attached to apostolic succession, who are earnest in learning the truth and give up everything for Christ to follow Him, and who humble themselves and realize that they alone are not the arbitrator of what is true nor are they some kind of pope. These true honest and objective disciples know that the Church of baptized members in unity of faith as handed down by the apostles is the pillar and foundation of truth, just as described in the Scriptures and the history of the Church. Our own individual interpretation of things against and apart from the apostolic Church leads us to heresy and delusion, even though we may fool ourselves and say it is the Holy Spirit which has revealed to us the truths. But the Holy Spirit is not the spirit of confusion! If our truths go against what the Church has faithfully and divinely passed down, then it is we who are in error when we go against the saints no matter how much blame we put on the Holy Spirit.)

    The simple truth is that to cast away as a mere symbol what Christ Himself established and taught was His Body and Blood, which His Apostles in turn also taught and passed down as well, and what the liturgical tradition for 2000 continuous years within the life of the Church has undeniably confirmed is a huge mistake which is on account of ignorance or pride. Ignorance for the one who refuses to read and study the early Christian writers and learn the divinely led truths lest they see how far from communion they are with the saints, and pride for those who go to seminaries, read tons of pages, and still in their vanity of mind and pride cannot see the forest from the trees. Many however are, by the grace of God, seeking out in spirit and truth the Church of the New Testament and have come to find it is the Orthodox Church. Many non-Orthodox are coming to this realization and are coming back to the faith of their spiritual forefathers. Glory to God! Perhaps this will indeed be the century of Orthodoxy in America now that the technology is available and the roots have been planted. If America ever needed it, it is now.
    Last edited by TER; 10-21-2014 at 07:47 AM.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  24. #21
    I am the bread and wine of my body.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    The fact is that the interpretation you have chosen with regards to the Eucharist as being only a 'symbol' did not come about until the Reformation.
    "Oceania was at war with Eastasia: Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia. A large part of the political literature of five years was now completely obsolete."
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  26. #23
    Kevin007 What version of the Bible are you reading where the word "only" is preceded by in remembrance of me in 1 Cor. 11:23-26? I have checked Biblehub.com and the word "only" does not appear in any of the 20 or so versions they provide.
    I have always supported measures and principles and not men. I have acted fearless and independent and I never will regret my course. I would rather be politically buried that to be hypochriticalley immortalized.
    Davy Crockett

    Look up, get up, and don't ever give up.
    Michael Irvin

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by TN_VOL View Post
    Kevin007 What version of the Bible are you reading where the word "only" is preceded by in remembrance of me in 1 Cor. 11:23-26? I have checked Biblehub.com and the word "only" does not appear in any of the 20 or so versions they provide.
    There are plenty of Bible studies around that will refer back to the Greek and give you the expanded explanation for what it actually says.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    Except all the historical writings going down to the first century as well as the stated beliefs of the Church Fathers also going down to the first century (not to forget what Christ Himself explicitly taught!) disagrees with you in this regard.

    The fact is that the interpretation you have chosen with regards to the Eucharist as being only a 'symbol' did not come about until the Reformation. The Eucharist (on the Lord's Day, meaning Sunday) was always the center of worship for the early Church and believed to be the real presence of Christ before them. They also believed that by partaking of His Body and Blood (a very guarded event) was a mystical actualization of communion with Christ and partaking in the eschaton and Kingdom of Heaven. The scholars of early Christian history all agree to this fact (of course, you will find some here and there who ignore all the available evidence and come up with theories in order to push their own presuppositions, but these are few). If someone truly wished to learn the truth, then that fact should make them question themself. Or, perhaps not! Comfort and convenience sometime trumps the diligent searching for the truth unfortunately! But for those who refuse to ignore history and the teachings which go back for 2000 years and attached to apostolic succession, who are earnest in learning the truth and give up everything for Christ to follow Him, and who humble themselves and realize that they alone are not the arbitrator of what is true nor are they some kind of pope. These true honest and objective disciples know that the Church of baptized members in unity of faith as handed down by the apostles is the pillar and foundation of truth, just as described in the Scriptures and the history of the Church. Our own individual interpretation of things against and apart from the apostolic Church leads us to heresy and delusion, even though we may fool ourselves and say it is the Holy Spirit which has revealed to us the truths. But the Holy Spirit is not the spirit of confusion! If our truths go against what the Church has faithfully and divinely passed down, then it is we who are in error when we go against the saints no matter how much blame we put on the Holy Spirit.)

    The simple truth is that to cast away as a mere symbol what Christ Himself established and taught was His Body and Blood, which His Apostles in turn also taught and passed down as well, and what the liturgical tradition for 2000 continuous years within the life of the Church has undeniably confirmed is a huge mistake which is on account of ignorance or pride. Ignorance for the one who refuses to read and study the early Christian writers and learn the divinely led truths lest they see how far from communion they are with the saints, and pride for those who go to seminaries, read tons of pages, and still in their vanity of mind and pride cannot see the forest from the trees. Many however are, by the grace of God, seeking out in spirit and truth the Church of the New Testament and have come to find it is the Orthodox Church. Many non-Orthodox are coming to this realization and are coming back to the faith of their spiritual forefathers. Glory to God! Perhaps this will indeed be the century of Orthodoxy in America now that the technology is available and the roots have been planted. If America ever needed it, it is now.
    Amen!
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  30. #26
    Full Definition of METAPHOR

    1
    : a figure of speech in which a word or phrase literally denoting one kind of object or idea is used in place of another to suggest a likeness or analogy between them (as in drowning in money); broadly : figurative language — compare simile
    2
    : an object, activity, or idea treated as a metaphor : symbol 2
    — met·a·phor·ic or met·a·phor·i·cal adjective
    — met·a·phor·i·cal·ly adverb
    See metaphor defined for English-language learners »
    See metaphor defined for kids »
    Examples of METAPHOR

    “He was drowning in paperwork” is a metaphor in which having to deal with a lot of paperwork is being compared to drowning in an ocean of water.
    Her poems include many imaginative metaphors.
    a poet admired for her use of metaphor
    You see, menudo is our chicken soup for the body and soul, our metaphor for bread-and-butter issues. —Joe Rodriguez, San Jose Mercury News, 20 May 2003


    People can feel free to believe that Jesus had no idea what a metaphor meant or never used metaphors or whatever. People can feel equally free to believe that Jesus was using a metaphor in this case just like He used a metaphor when He said the Pharisees were "whitewashed tombs filled with dead men's bones." I believe the latter.

    I am curious though. Supposedly the "miracle" of transubstantiation happens when a holy priest blesses the bread and wine right? But what about when the priest isn't holy? That to me is the real significance of the priest sex abuse scandal (besides the cover up by church officials). Sure there are protestant pastors who are wicked themselves. (One recently gave some of his congregation HIV). But nobody believes that when a protestant pastor officiates a communion service it has any miracle necessarily happens anyway.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
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    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  31. #27
    They say it looks and tastes like wine and bread. If it's wine and bread under a microscope, it's still wine and bread.
    Last edited by robert68; 10-21-2014 at 02:15 PM.

  32. #28
    Furthermore Paul affirms the Real Presence in 1 Corinthians 10:16. "Is not the cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?" And in 1 Corinthians 11:27-30 "Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But a man must examine himself, and in so doing For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. For this reason why many among you are weak and sick , and a number sleep." In other words, if you're receiving Communion while you're not in right relationship with Jesus, you're poisoning your own soul, a sort of spiritual suicide caused by committing mortal sin. Secondly if the Lords body and blood are not present, how can a wrong be committed against them? Also keep in mind John 13:27 Then after he (Judas) had taken the morsel ( Holy Communion), Satan entered into him. (John 13:27)
    I have always supported measures and principles and not men. I have acted fearless and independent and I never will regret my course. I would rather be politically buried that to be hypochriticalley immortalized.
    Davy Crockett

    Look up, get up, and don't ever give up.
    Michael Irvin

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    Hey Kevin, serious question. How do you feel about homosexuality?
    I feel it is wrong, a sin. Why do you ask?
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post

    People can feel free to believe that Jesus had no idea what a metaphor meant
    This is why internet discussions often times go nowhere. I would ask that we try to be more mature in our dialogue my friend. I don't think anyone put forward the proposition that Jesus has no idea what a metaphor is. I think we can hVe fruitful discussions without going to extremes.

    ...or never used metaphors or whatever. People can feel equally free to believe that Jesus was using a metaphor in this case just like He used a metaphor when He said the Pharisees were "whitewashed tombs filled with dead men's bones." I believe the latter.
    As does any rational human being. Thank you for confirming it! However, you have yet proved your positions that Christ was using metaphors and was not being literal when He said:

    "Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed,[h] and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me." (John 6)
    In fact, the only evidence we have of the early Church, confirms undoubtedly the literalness of these teachings by the Church. These are simply the facts.

    I am curious though. Supposedly the "miracle" of transubstantiation happens when a holy priest blesses the bread and wine right? But what about when the priest isn't holy?
    In the early 4th century, this actually came to debate. At that time in North Africa there was a group of Christians in the so called Donatist movement, named after the Bishop of Carthage Donatus Magnus. This movement occurred after the Diocletian persecutions when many baptized Christians apostacized because of imperial threats. This movement of rigorists did not recognize the validity of the sacraments and spiritual authority of those clergy who handed over spiritual books to be burned during the persecution and believed that there is no forgiveness for such grave sin after baptizism because the Church should be a gathering of only holy saints, not sinners. They also professed that any sacraments given by a clergy who had did such great sin would be invalid. This group then separated themselves from the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church and schismed and then forming their own heirarchy. This happened in 311 AD. They lingered until the fifth century. More information can be found here.

    This led to the one of the first great councils and indeed the first representative meeting of Christian hierarchs held in the western part of the Roman Empire in the year 313.

    This council was the first one called by emperor Constantine, and below is quoted his letter to summon the meeting. This one is addressed to the Bishop of Syracuse, but is the same letter sent to the Christian Bishops spread throughout the known world:

    (21) Constantine Augustus to Chrestus, bishop of Syracuse.

    When certain men began wickedly and perversely to disagree among themselves in regard to the holy worship and celestial power and catholic doctrine [a reference to the Donatist schism], I wished to put an end to such disputes among them. So I commanded that certain bishops should be sent from Gaul, and that the opposing parties who were contending persistently and incessantly with each other should be summoned from Africa. In this way the matter which appeared to be causing the disturbance might be examined and decided with all care in their presence, and in the presence of the bishop of Rome [this was the Council of Rome in 313].

    (22) But some of them, who seem to have forgotten both of their own salvation and of the reverence due to the most holy religion, have not yet brought the hostilities to an end. They are unwilling to conform to the judgment already passed [at Rome in 313], and assert that not enough bishops were present to express their opinions and decisions. They assert that those [present at Rome] had been too hasty in giving judgment, before all the things which ought to have been accurately investigated had been examined. On this account it has happened that those very ones who ought to hold brotherly and harmonious relations toward each other are shamefully, or rather abominably, divided among themselves, and give occasion to be ridiculed by those men whose souls are estranged from this most holy religion. Therefore it has seemed necessary to me to provide that this dissension, which ought to have ceased after the judgment had been already given by their own voluntary agreement, should now, if possible, be brought to an end by the presence of a great number of bishops.

    (23) Since, therefore, we have commanded a number of bishops from a great many different places to assemble in the city of Arles, before the 1st of August, we have thought proper to write to you also. You should secure from the most illustrious Latronianus, corrector of Sicily, a public vehicle, and you should choose two others of the second rank and take them with you. You should bring along three servants who may serve you on the way, and arrive to the above-mentioned place before the appointed day. It is disgraceful that shameful feuds have allowed this dispute to continue until the present time. Hopefully it can be resolved when all sides have been heard from, both those who are now at variance with one another, and those whom I have commanded to be present. By your firmness and the wise unanimity and harmony of other present, this division can be healed, in accordance with the faith, so that brotherly harmony may be restored, even if gradually.

    (24) May the Almighty God preserve thee in health for many years.
    In this Council, in deliberation, discussion, and above all prayer to God, the Bishops ruled against the re-baptism of heretics (that is, there requires confession and penance, but not a new baptism for those who lapsed). The council also ruled that clergy who could be proven to have been persecuted and delivered sacred books to be burned should be deposed, but their official acts were to be held valid. The council also ruled that at least three bishops were required at the consecration of a bishop.

    This is called the Council of Arles (southern Gaul) in the year 314. So what was proclaimed to be the catholic orthodox faith of the Church of Christians was that the validity of the sacraments do not depend on the worthiness of the ordained clergy, since it is God Who sanctifies the mystery. St. Augustine goes on to explain this. In Latin it is called ex opere operato. Click here for more information.

    That to me is the real significance of the priest sex abuse scandal (besides the cover up by church officials). Sure there are protestant pastors who are wicked themselves. (One recently gave some of his congregation HIV). But nobody believes that when a protestant pastor officiates a communion service it has any miracle necessarily happens anyway.
    That is so sad, my friend, to hear you, a Christian, say, and in such a matter of fact way. How much you are missing! Your position regarding the Holy Eucharist puts you theologically (and maybe spiritually) at odds with every baptized Christian for the first 1600 years of the history of Christianity. And I am not exaggerating that. I can only hope one day you will come to know.

    One can only say 'Come and see!'
    Last edited by TER; 10-21-2014 at 04:21 PM.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

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