But I did learn. I learned what St. Clement had to say about the Eucharist. It's metaphorical. If by learning you mean agreeing with you, then maybe you need to learn about learning. Maybe you might learn something.Originally Posted by TER
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
Of course it can. This is not unique to Christian understanding, but it comes from Judaism from which it bloomed from. It is also the belief of a multitude of other philosophies and religious thinking. This is natural when divinity is considered and professed to be set apart from time, that is, when God is considered eternal.
+'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ
Don't agree with me, my friend. Agree with the Church and the holy ones in the Church. I merely repeat what greater men then me have proclaimed to be the truth. 2000 years of them. So not my opinion, but their opinion.
Last edited by TER; 10-25-2014 at 09:57 PM.
+'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ
If I were you, I wouldn't keep pounding my chest thinking that you're Mr.Congeniality either. You seem to think more highly of yourself than anyone else does from what I can tell.
You and Kevin were on a mission in this thread and then because you *thought you'd found the dirt you were looking for, you gloated--"laughing hilariously" as if you actually won a case here or something. I was embarrassed for you. As it turns out--you are still wrong--how about them apples. Nothing like your own sword falling back down upon your own head is there.
BTW, I'm respectful to people who are the same to me. Unfortunately--I still have flaws and fail to suck it up in humility like I should many times. It's something I've struggled with for a very long time.
Matthew 26:29 ►
New International Version
I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."
Ephesians 2:8-9-
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
there are many reasons why the real presence is unscriptural, not just a quote from a church father.
Matthew 26:29 ►
New International Version
I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."
Jesus had not died yet, He could not have been speaking literal. Dozens of reasons to not take that passage out of context (literally). Jesus gave Himself ONCE and for all time. There are passages that speak to this;
◄ Hebrews 7:27 ►
New International Version
Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.
Ephesians 2:8-9-
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
the Holy Spirit is our teacher in ALL TRUTH. John 16:13
New International Version
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
Ephesians 2:8-9-
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Kevin, do you believe every thought that pops up in your head is from the Holy Spirit?
+'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ
Do you believe in the real presence of Christ at regeneration? Do you believe in the real presence of Christ in the baptism? Do you believe in the real presence of the Holy Spirit? If you answer yes to any one of these, then why wouldn't you believe in the real presence of Christ in the Holy Communion?
Why do you think that you're warned not to do this without properly discerning the blood and body of Christ? The word tells you that there are dire consequences for doing this.
Last edited by Terry1; 10-25-2014 at 10:54 PM.
this has nothing to do with what you think it does....
Ephesians 2:8-9-
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Well then, kindly explain yourself if you will.
Well I don't agree with you that all of the church fathers agreed with you. So my opinion is that your opinion isn't universally their opinion. So far you've provided no evidence that my interpretation of Clement is incorrect. So no. You are not "merely repeating" what men said 2000 years ago. If you wish to actually address what Clement said then by all means to do.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
I never called myself "Mr. Congenialiy". But you are Ms. Tempermental. And it's got nothing to do with people being respectful to you and everything to do with people disagreeing with you. I'm the same jmdrake that I always am. When I'm disagreeing with Kevin or Lily you like me. When I'm disagreeing with you, you don't. So no, I'm not worried about your opinion of me because it's too flighty. As for Kevin and I being on a "mission" don't make me laugh! Kevin's slammed my religion much harder than your attempt in this thread. And my "mission" in this thread has merely been to give my honest opinion. And honestly I believe it's much to do about nothing. I don't think those who believe in transubstantiation are "unbiblical" in the sense that a rational person could take the words of Jesus that way. By the same token I don't think a person who believes transubstantiation is false is "unbiblical" because a rational person could take the words of Jesus as metaphorical. And THE ONLY REASON I LOOKED UP ST CLEMENT IS BECAUSE TER DEMANDED I DO SO! Sorry to shout, but you are being irrational to pretend I did that as a part of some "mission". If TER had been willing to just accept the fact that I don't believe as he did, then I wouldn't have even looked more deeply into the subject and found more evidence to refute his (and by extension your) position.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
Fine. Then take your pick. One can choose A) symbolic only B) literal only or C) symbolic and literal and be true to the Bible and be a Christian. Earlier you asked me to find some church father that thought it was symbolic. I did. Beyond that this is really a non issue.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
"Irrational" is attempting to use *one word by one man you misunderstood* in attempts to discredit thousands of years worth of church history and teaching. I doubt that St. Clement himself would agree with your interpretation of what he said in light of simply nothing more than who he was and what he stood for.
Now that my friend is what I call--"irrational".
What you are doing is called a "strawman". Again, TER asked me to find one person that agreed with my interpretation that Jesus was speaking metaphorically. I did that. In fact I found several from that one link. From a straight Biblical standpoint there is good reason to believe Jesus was speaking metaphorically. If you want to stick with your belief that He was speaking literally, by all means go right ahead. But for you to pretend that my answering TER was somehow part of some "mission" that I joined in with Kevin on is just plain silly. Hey, but maybe TER is a part of the conspiracy? After all he set up the pitch with his open ended question.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
All of this is because you're not understanding the Eucharist at all. The bread and the wine are nothing until they've been blessed and entered the body and become the literal flesh and blood of Christ--through our faith. So metaphorically speaking--the bread and wine only symbolize the blood and body of Christ until they have been blessed and entered the body and through our faith, they become the blood and the body of Christ.
The bread isn't the body of Christ while it's being baked in the oven before it's used by the church. The wine isn't the blood of Christ before it reaches the church. What literally transforms these elements are the blessings by the church and through our faith when they enter our bodies--literally become the blood and body of Christ.
Otherwise--you wouldn't be eating and drinking condemnation and judgment unto yourself not properly discerning these elements. There's actual punishment here for this offense--because after it's blessed by the church--it is the blood and body of Christ. Which is no less than Christ being literal in our regeneration and baptism process--He's there--literally.
SO a sinful man (Priest) can do this, eh? How and where in the Bible does it mention this? Acts 1:11-Para
New International Version
"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."
There is no need for Jesus to "come down" and be resacrificed again and again....
"...Jesus [also] became the guarantee of an [even] better covenant...He has no need, as did the high priests, to offer sacrifice day after day, first for His own sins and then for those of the people; He did that once for all when He offered Himself". (Hebrews 7:22.
To have Priests call down Jesus (they cannot) shows that they do not believe enough in Jesus' one time, perfect sacrifice to end all sacrifices.
Ephesians 2:8-9-
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Oh I understand it fine. I just don't agree. It's amazing how quickly you grasped onto TER's "It's both metaphorical and literal" argument when that wasn't what you were saying at first. You were willing to go with a "Well the church fathers weren't 100% right" argument until TER gave you something else to go with. This wasn't what TER was saying at first either. Nobody said anything about it being both metaphorical and literal until TER challenged me to find some church father saying that it was metaphorical and I responded to the challenge and found a church father making that exact point. And so far nobody has provided any evidence of St. Clement saying it was literal. Anyway, believe what you want to believe.
Last edited by jmdrake; 10-26-2014 at 04:37 PM.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
exactly.
Ephesians 2:8-9-
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
You certainly like to accuse others of strawman arguments don't you. Most of what you just said is a fabrication of add-on's and subtractions to what was actually said.
Well, you've really made a fool of yourself dissing one of the most beloved and long-time respected members of this forum to support your little buddy Kevin there whose done nothing but bash the Catholics and EO's since the day he subscribed here. I must say that it's true--like you and Kevin--water does seek it's own level doesn't it. How foolish of you. I'm done here.
Last edited by Terry1; 10-26-2014 at 05:11 PM.
lol at Terry thinking me and jm are in cahoots- too funny. I haven't even spoken to him.
Ephesians 2:8-9-
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
As if you need to speak with anyone in the forum to be "in cahoots" with them.
Remember if you're not the sharpest tool in the shed, cheer up, you can still be the thickest tree in the forest. Thank God we all have hope because if it wasn't for believing God--I'd never see it some people.
SO a sinful man (Priest) can do this, eh? How and where in the Bible does it mention this? Acts 1:11-Para
New International Version
"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."
There is no need for Jesus to "come down" and be resacrificed again and again....
"...Jesus [also] became the guarantee of an [even] better covenant...He has no need, as did the high priests, to offer sacrifice day after day, first for His own sins and then for those of the people; He did that once for all when He offered Himself". (Hebrews 7:22.
To have Priests call down Jesus (they cannot) shows that they do not believe enough in Jesus' one time, perfect sacrifice to end all sacrifices.
Ephesians 2:8-9-
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Terry its too bad you have more faith in yourself than Jesus.
Ephesians 2:8-9-
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Only when it's true. And in this case it is. I've not said anything about throwing away "1,000 years of Orthodoxy". TER asked me if I could find any church father that agreed with the metaphor interpretation and I did. End of story.
The one going around calling others "fools" is typically the biggest fool. I haven't "dissed" TER. If you think so that's your problem. Kevin isn't my "buddy". He's not my enemy either. Neither are you though you've decided to set yourself that way. I'm interested in the truth. And the truth is that the church fathers weren't as united on the "It's literal not a metaphor" position on the Eucharist as you seem to think. Or if they were, the evidence of that has not been put forward in this thread. I would say sorry for offending you, but you take offense so easily that I think such an apology would be pointless.Well, you've really made a fool of yourself dissing one of the most beloved and long-time respected members of this forum to support your little buddy Kevin there whose done nothing but bash the Catholics and EO's since the day he subscribed here. I must say that it's true--like you and Kevin--water does seek it's own level doesn't it. How foolish of you. I'm done here.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
Terry has an "us versus them" mentality that I don't have. The fact that I can argue with you means that it's somehow "wrong" if you and I end up on the same side of an argument. If Terry had been paying attention she would know that I've argued with and against SF, FF, TER, HB and just about everyone else.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
Kevin started this thread "The Eucharist is unbiblical". Yet another one of his attack threads on the Catholics and the EOC. You joined forces with him in attempts to support him in this thread with full understanding of what Kevin has done since the day he subscribed to this forum, which wasn't all that long ago.
How many peaceful, loving threads has TER started that were hijacked and trashed by Kevin--along with his friends. I would think that with the length of time you've spent in this same forum with people like TER and other good faithful members with good intentions towards peace--you'd understand what Kevin's agenda and participation in this forum was all about. Yet--you team up with Kevin--to argue against the Eucharist.
My point is here that whether or not you agree with the Eucharist--choosing to team up with the likes as someone as Kevin against good, faithful peace loving long time members who have contributed more towards peace, love, the kingdom of heaven and this forum as well---I thought would have been beneath you understanding the length of time you've been here, but it seems it wasn't. You were more than willing to sink the same level as Kevin to support his agenda and efforts. That is the issue that I had with you and not your disagreement with the Eucharist at all.
This to me spoke volumes with regard to your character and integrity. This is why I said that water seeks it's own level. There are all kinds of lawyers out there suing doctors for malpractice and getting rich doing it--while there are still a few that retain some level of integrity with regard to how low they will go for a pay check.
Last edited by Terry1; 10-27-2014 at 10:32 AM.
If you can't attack the message attack the messenger. If you can't attack the messenger, attack anyone who is agreeing with the messenger at the moment--and accuse them of collusion for nefarious purposes. If you can't understand the message, agree with whomever you like more, or just laugh it off.
I've been enjoying Mr. Drake's posts here for years, and he will defend what he feels is right, period. There's nothing political about his efforts. As far as he's concerned, as anyone with clear vision can see, right is right and that is that. Regardless of who else takes that position and how he might feel about them. He, in short, has integrity.
And there is one thing I feel he is absolutely right about--to understand something is not necessarily to agree with it. As in this case...
Last edited by acptulsa; 10-27-2014 at 10:36 AM.
That's all fine and well, but don't try to misrepresent what I actually said to support your friends. That was my point as well. We can disagree on anything which is fine, but don't accuse me of saying something that I clearly did not say in effort to support your friends argument. The truth stands on it's own and needs no defense.
Last edited by Terry1; 10-27-2014 at 10:46 AM.
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