10 Reasons Why Salvation By Works Does Not Work

[lilymc]

you know, I just had a revelation. Terry and others like her have faith in themselves.

That thought came to me today too. That's why I mentioned to Terry that she really must have a lot of faith in herself. That reminds me of this "good o meter" video.

She needs to watch this, but I get the feeling she is going to HATE it.

[Miss Annie]

I TOTALLY LOVE the video!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Reminds me of this......

[lilymc]

I TOTALLY LOVE the video!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Reminds me of this......

I love, love, LOVE that song and video! Thank you for sharing it!!!

Praise the one who paid my debt and raised this life up from the dead. YES!!!! And Amen.

[Natural Citizen]

That was in the context of salvation....But do you disagree that many people think that way?

Yes, I know that it was. Is why I had mentioned that it wasn't fair to do it like that.


Yes, I agree that many people think that way.Of course, many people don't. As well, others may understand the concept of salvation entirely differently. We tend to want to create gods in our image, lilymc. For the time being I'm just going to accept that I'm stardust. And, of course, to dust i'll probably return. I think of it more so as a physics as opposed to salvation. And...as a bonus...I get to live forever. Heaven, if one wishes. Is something to think on, though. Which I haven't done today. Been busy.

The camera thing you could probably fiddle around with and maybe scribble up a project of sorts out on the streets like you were saying. Maybe just try something different than what everyone else always does. Because, really, it's not that the idea isn't original. The questions are always the same. And so they no longer resonate with the people on the other end of yer mic. The more people become exposed to the same thing, they become blind to what may or may not be what a profound truth of some sort. Disrupt that. By doing so, we make things new again. Ideas become fresh again. Well...in theory.

As I said, though, I'll think on it. It is an interesting debate to have when not entirely one sided in the terms of controversy department.

[Terry1]

What does it mean to be justified, sanctified and what is its relationship to the law?


There are three stages for a Christian. Justification, sanctification and glorification. These are theological terms describing the believers position, activity and changes we go through as believers in Jesus Christ. We are justified by believing in Christ (in the gospel) but we are still being sanctified we reach the third and last stage- which is glorification, where we become transformed to be permanently sinless and immortal. These are promises that accompany the new covenant that begin and end our walk on earth. Rom 8:30 “Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.”

Justification begins our sanctification. We are both Justified (a one time event) and sanctification begins with our justification, it is a process that conforms us to Christ’s likeness (moral likeness). Justification is a legal declaration of a sinner being righteous, it does not make us righteous. Someone who is a Christian for 10 years is no more justified than when the first became a believer. It is through the process of our dying to self and being obedient to the word and the Spirit (Jn.17:19; Rom. 15:16) we are daily changed, in God’s eyes we are completed and accepted because of our faith in Jesus’ work on the cross.


Justification is a pronouncement to clear the guilty. When one is justified, he is declared right before the Lord; he is pardoned and cleared of any violation. “there is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus” (Rom.8)
Rom 3:24-25 “being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed.”

Rom 5:1: “Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ”

Rom 5:9: “Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.”



Our justification is by faith in the work of the Son of God on the cross, his shed blood and death for forgiveness of our sins.



Sanctification-is a continual process that conforms us into the image of the Son of God (1 Cor. 6:11 it first begins, with our justification Romans 8:29). Col. 3:10: “put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him.”



1 Cor. 1:2: “To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours”

Heb. 10:10: “we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”

II Thess. 2:13: “because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.”1 Peter 1:2 “elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ”


http://www.letusreason.org/Biblexp139.htm

Alright then, Kevin or Lily--answer this question for me if you will. How can your justification by faith be a "one time event", when Gods word tells you that it's possible for faith to die and to fall from grace?

Either one of you can pick this up if you choose to, but if you answer, please include scripture to support your explanation (not someone's website). Please no unrelated commentary or long emotional rants.

[jmdrake]

Impossible for man, not impossible for God. Many passages proving justification IS a one time event. It is being declared not guilty of something you were guilty off. Can you be charged for the same crime twice after being found not guilty? NO.

No. But you can be saved from the penalty of a crime before the crime itself is expunged. It's called expungible probation. To be offered expungible probation you must first admit that you actually committed the crime. Then you have to have a relationship with your probation officer. It's possible to mess up and stay on probation. But not checking in with your probation officer is a sure way to get "violated". It doesn't matter how much "good" you are doing on the outside world. If you don't remain in relationship with your probation officer you're going to jail. The hope of probation is that you will be rehabilitated during that period so that when it's over you won't commit any more crimes. When the probation is over, your record can be clean to the point that it's as if you never committed the crime in the first place.

Those who claim they are not guilty are not eligible for expungible probation. All they have a right to is a trial. If and the end of the trial they are found not guilty, then yes, you are right. They cannot be put on trial again. But those are people who are actually not guilty. They are not those who are receiving the mercy (grace) of the court.

The new covenant first described in Jeremiah 31 and then repeated in Hebrews 8 and Hebrews 10 talks about God writing His law in the hearts of believers such that there is a change to where they all personally know Him. And then He forever forgets their sins.

Hebrews 10:10-12
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

[Terry1]

Jesus answered questions with questions all the time. Are you saying that Jesus wasn't fair? I do not have to understand how God does something to believe Him when He said that He does. The Bible said God created everything out of nothing. I don't understand how that happened. Does that mean it's not true? The Bible says Jesus raised Lazarus to life after he was dead three days. I don't know how He did that. Does that mean it's not true? The Bible says Jesus laid down His life and then took it up again. I don't understand how that happened. Does that mean it's not true? You believe the bread and wine somehow becomes the physical body and blood of Jesus. You don't understand how it happened.

jmd, being empowered by God can be summed up into literally two words here: "knowledge and wisdom". We are empowered in our belief through the evidence of God revealing Himself to us through His own creation. It is the compelling evidence that drives us in faith to do what we have been called to do. God confirms Himself over and over in our lives as we live more for Christ and less for ourselves.

Gods empowerment is not some super-human power that manifests itself in such a way that we can lift buildings off their foundations or fly like birds. Gods empowerment is the evidence of Himself that gives hope, knowledge and wisdom. These are the things will cause us to understand what we've been called to do and why. They empower us in a sense that now our lives have meaning and purpose and we understand perfectly what we are suppose to do as a result of this same knowledge and wisdom.

Knowledge is only powerful and useful if it's applied in wisdom, otherwise knowledge is empty, vain and useless. So the power is spiritual in nature, but must be used in a physical way through our witness to others.

We have the knowledge that everything has been created--but wisdom tells us how they are or were created. Absent the wisdom of God--mankind fails to understand where creation begins or ends because they can not find the sources. Everything just keeps on going with no beginning or no end--same as God.

I'm sure that someone has explained this far better than I have in my own words, but I choose to explain this as I understand it.

So we are drawn to God simply by Him revealing Himself to us through His creation. This is Gods grace and power that is given to all mankind because it's the very evidence of God. When we're drawn to God by His grace/power--then it's up to us to either accept or reject this evidence through faith. "Through being the operative word". Which means that something has to happen as a result of seeing the power, evidence and grace of God "through faith". We either accept this truth and believe and act upon it in faith or many will not and walk away.

By grace and power we are drawn to God and through our own faith we either begin to act upon our belief or not. Hence--salvation is the gift and result of our accepting this truth and evidence and acting upon it in faith. Now we have been *empowered*---by grace and only through faith.

[jmdrake]

jmd, being empowered by God can be summed up into literally two words here: "knowledge and wisdom". We are empowered in our belief through the evidence of God revealing Himself to us through His own creation. It is the compelling evidence that drives us in faith to do what we have been called to do. God confirms Himself over and over in our lives as we live more for Christ and less for ourselves.

The heroin addict can have the knowledge to know he should get off heroin. He can have the wisdom to know that he ought to go to somebody's clinic to get off of heroin. He might even be off of heroin for a while and still go back to it. What he's lacking, and often cannot provide for himself, is the will. Take some time to go talk to some addicts this week. Or better yet go find an addiction counselor. Ask that person if "knowledge and wisdom" are enough to kick strong addictions. Sin in general is a very strong and subtle addictions. It's so subtle that some sin addicts don't even realize they are addicts.

Gods empowerment is not some super-human power that manifests itself in such a way that we can lift buildings off their foundations or fly like birds. Gods empowerment is the evidence of Himself that gives hope, knowledge and wisdom. These are the things will cause us to understand what we've been called to do and why. They empower us in a sense that now our lives have meaning and purpose and we understand perfectly what we are suppose to do as a result of this same knowledge and wisdom.

So....how was Jesus empowered? Jesus said:

John 5:30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Jesus also said:

John 14:12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

So Jesus promised His followers would have the same power He had. I find it odd that you have a very rational worldly view of the power of God when it comes to empowering our lives to overcome sin, but you have a irrational mystical view of wine and bread becoming human flesh and blood.

Knowledge is only powerful and useful if it's applied in wisdom, otherwise knowledge is empty, vain and useless. So the power is spiritual in nature, but must be used in a physical way through our witness to others.

Well I agree that the power is spiritual in nature. It comes from God. And it's more than mere knowledge and wisdom. There are some people who are much smarter than me and wiser than me who will be in hell. In fact the Bible specifically teaches against lifting up wisdom.

Jeremiah 9:23,24 This is what the LORD says: "Let not the wise boast of their wisdom or the strong boast of their strength or the rich boast of their riches, but let the one who boasts boast about this: that they have the understanding to know me, that I am the LORD, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight," declares the LORD.

Salvation is about your personal walk with Jesus. Having faith that Jesus is literally present with you.

Revelation 3:20 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

In fact, the more I think about it, the more I wonder if this is the true danger of the teaching on transubstantiation. It replaces a belief that Jesus is literally living in the believer through the Holy Spirit to the idea that Jesus is living at the church. I don't know. I don't think most RCC and EO Christians have taken the view you seem to have that God's supernatural power cannot rest individually on each believer. But maybe they do. I hope some other EO or RCC will chime in.

We have the knowledge that everything has been created--but wisdom tells us how they are or were created. Absent the wisdom of God--mankind fails to understand where creation begins or ends because they can not find the sources. Everything just keeps on going with no beginning or no end--same as God.

I'm sure that someone has explained this far better than I have in my own words, but I choose to explain this as I understand it.

I'm sure that's the way you understand it. But that's not the way Jesus or the apostles preached it.

[Terry1]

The heroin addict can have the knowledge to know he should get off heroin. He can have the wisdom to know that he ought to go to somebody's clinic to get off of heroin. He might even be off of heroin for a while and still go back to it. What he's lacking, and often cannot provide for himself, is the will. Take some time to go talk to some addicts this week. Or better yet go find an addiction counselor. Ask that person if "knowledge and wisdom" are enough to kick strong addictions. Sin in general is a very strong and subtle addictions. It's so subtle that some sin addicts don't even realize they are addicts.



So....how was Jesus empowered? Jesus said:

John 5:30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Jesus also said:

John 14:12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

I find it odd that you have a very rational worldly view of the power of God when it comes to empowering our lives to overcome sin, but you have a irrational mystical view of wine and bread becoming human flesh and blood.



Well I agree that the power is spiritual in nature. It comes from God. And it's more than mere knowledge and wisdom. There are some people who are much smarter than me and wiser than me who will be in hell. In fact the Bible specifically teaches against lifting up wisdom.

Jeremiah 9:23,24 This is what the LORD says: "Let not the wise boast of their wisdom or the strong boast of their strength or the rich boast of their riches, but let the one who boasts boast about this: that they have the understanding to know me, that I am the LORD, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight," declares the LORD.

Salvation is about your personal walk with Jesus. Having faith that Jesus is literally present with you. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I wonder if this is the true danger of the teaching on transubstantiation. It replaces a belief that Jesus is literally living in the believer through the Holy Spirit to the idea that Jesus is living at the church. I don't know. I don't think most RCC and EO Christians have taken the view you seem to have that God's supernatural power cannot rest individually on each believer. But if they do that's a problem.



I'm sure that's the way you understand it. But that's not the way Jesus or the apostles preached it.

I understand what you're saying, but think on this as well.

Say someone asks you, "How do I obtain the power of God for my own life?"

First of all, we must come to a full knowledge of God through His word. Jesus says: "If you abide in Me and My word, you are My disciples. You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free" (John 8:31-32). Just as the word of God empowers us through knowledge and wisdom to overcome sin through faith in Christ. Christians are empowered to overcome all of the tests and trials of life to "glory in tribulations" (Romans 5:3).

Empowerment comes from being separated from this world in our knowledge and wisdom with that power that the world can not receive because they can not see it or experience it. So we should not compare ourselves to this world because now we're not part of it, but rather of royal priesthood--holy, God's own chosen people (1 Peter 2:9).

[moostraks]

Could you explain to me exactly *how God empowers us then? Because I have the distinct feeling here that you just might be leaping tall buildings in a single bound or jetting from one astral plane to another in the blink of an eye.

I'll give it a go, since I agree with jmdrake. From my perspective He empowers us through the Holy Spirit. So we choose which master we serve and we have good works or works of the flesh according to which master we are serving. When we submit to Him, then we are empowered by the Spirit, committing to not our own will (flesh) but His Will (love) be done. The Spirit gives us the ability to resist the desires of the flesh and the ability to perform good works according to what is right to be chosen under any given circumstance.

The old Law was like training wheels but we were never able to take them off and operate until we had the Spirit by which we now have the ability to do as we should but only if we surrender to the Spirit. There is no need to check code now (am speaking of say the dietary laws) on what we are doing because the law isn't an external but internal driver (which is not to say we are ignorant but Love is within us to do as should be done), but we must be submitting to Him for it to be internal. We can know if we are abiding in His Will according to the fruits we bear per Galatians 5, and by reading and really knowing Scripture and seeing it through Love.

[Terry1]

I'll give it a go, since I agree with jmdrake. From my perspective He empowers us through the Holy Spirit. So we choose which master we serve and we have good works or works of the flesh according to which master we are serving. When we submit to Him, then we are empowered by the Spirit, committing to not our own will (flesh) but His Will (love) be done. The Spirit gives us the ability to resist the desires of the flesh and the ability to perform good works according to what is right to be chosen under any given circumstance.

The old Law was like training wheels but we were never able to take them off and operate until we had the Spirit by which we now have the ability to do as we should but only if we surrender to the Spirit. There is no need to check code now (am speaking of say the dietary laws) on what we are doing because the law isn't an external but internal driver (which is not to say we are ignorant but Love is within us to do as should be done), but we must be submitting to Him for it to be internal. We can know if we are abiding in His Will according to the fruits we bear per Galatians 5, and by reading and really knowing Scripture and seeing it through Love.

I agree with you and jmd both, that it is the Holy Spirit that enables us to understand and discern who God is through His word, which then empowers us. There's no disagreement there.

I guess what I'm attempting to do here is get back to the original point that jmd was making when he stated that "God wills us to do" whatever. While the spirit of the Lord leads us and guides to that same knowledge and truth to empower us--we are still accountable with perfect liberty and freedom to either accept or reject the truth, evidence, knowledge and wisdom of God being offered. God will not touch our perfect freedom to make that choice and can only will us to do anything if we first allow Him to do that. Although God has the power to make us conform to His will--He will not do this.

[moostraks]

I agree with you and jmd both, that it is the Holy Spirit that enables us to understand and discern who God is through His word, which then empowers us. There's no disagreement there.

I guess what I'm attempting to do here is get back to the original point that jmd was making when he stated that "God wills us to do" whatever. While the spirit of the Lord leads us and guides to that same knowledge and truth to empower us--we are still accountable with perfect liberty and freedom to either accept or reject the truth, evidence, knowledge and wisdom of God being offered. God will not touch our perfect freedom to make that choice and can only will us to do anything if we first allow Him to do that. Although God has the power to make us conform to His will--He will not do this.

So a osas vs. free will argument?

[Terry1]

So a osas vs. free will argument?

I guess that's what this thread has been about from the very beginning, because Lily is basing this thread upon OSAS teaching. I don't believe that jmd was endorsing OSAS, because I don't believe that he subscribes to that, but what it seemed he was implying was that *we do what God wills because God wills it*, which also implies that our choice and free will is redundant, while at the same time jmd stated that he believes in the free will. I'm sure he can correct me if I've misstated anything on his behalf as far as I understood what he was trying to say.

[moostraks]

I guess that's what this thread has been about from the very beginning, because Lily is basing this thread upon OSAS teaching. I don't believe that jmd was endorsing OSAS, because I don't believe that he subscribes to that, but what it seemed he was implying was that *we do what God wills because God wills it*, which also implies that our choice and free will is redundant, while at the same time jmd stated that he believes in the free will. I'm sure he can correct me if I've misstated anything on his behalf as far as I understood what he was trying to say.

Well, the free will would be in the choosing to submit to His Will. So we submit and offer our vessel as a slave and the Spirit works through us.

Romans 6:17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.…

[jmdrake]

I guess that's what this thread has been about from the very beginning, because Lily is basing this thread upon OSAS teaching. I don't believe that jmd was endorsing OSAS, because I don't believe that he subscribes to that, but what it seemed he was implying was that *we do what God wills because God wills it*, which also implies that our choice and free will is redundant, while at the same time jmd stated that he believes in the free will. I'm sure he can correct me if I've misstated anything on his behalf as far as I understood what he was trying to say.

You haven't misstated me, but I'm not sure you understand me. Do you understand what it means to freely submit your will to someone else? If you freely submit your will to God and allow Him to work out His will in your life, how do you not have free will?

[Terry1]

You haven't misstated me, but I'm not sure you understand me. Do you understand what it means to freely submit your will to someone else? If you freely submit your will to God and allow Him to work out His will in your life, how do you not have free will?

Yes, submitting your will is choosing to do the will of God--freely without coercion. The Holy Spirit leads and guides us, He does not control our free will at any level. Perfect liberty in Christ does not support coercion at all. We write our own destinies by use of that perfect freedom to choose Christ or not in any given situation or circumstance, we always have a choice as to whom we'll trust and follow. We are empowered by the knowledge and wisdom of God--we are led and guided by the Holy Spirit, but never does God touch our perfect liberty and freedom to will or to choose Him.

When Gods word told us that those who are set free are free indeed. James talks about "the perfect law of liberty" which is the law of grace and faith just the same. Paul also referred to himself as a "free man in Christ", meaning that Paul became all things to all men to win souls for Christ, which sometimes meant having to respect the laws of the land by doing them where he entered to witness Christ, even though those laws went against the law of liberty in Christ.

[Terry1]

Well, the free will would be in the choosing to submit to His Will. So we submit and offer our vessel as a slave and the Spirit works through us.

Romans 6:17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.…

Yes, we serve God and present ourselves to Him willingly being guided and led by the Holy Spirit. Perfect liberty is just that--God won't touch it. The reason God won't touch our perfect liberty in Christ is because God wants us to choose Him based upon us understanding who He is and how much He loves us. That is the wisdom and knowledge of God empowering us to make the right choice--by our understanding Him and who He is.

[jmdrake]

Yes, submitting your will is choosing to do the will of God--freely without coercion. The Holy Spirit leads and guides us, He does not control our free will at any level. Perfect liberty in Christ does not support coercion at all. We write our own destinies by use of that perfect freedom to choose Christ or not in any given situation or circumstance, we always have a choice as to whom we'll trust and follow. We are empowered by the knowledge and wisdom of God--we are led and guided by the Holy Spirit, but never does God touch our perfect liberty and freedom to will or to choose Him.

When Gods word told us that those who are set free are free indeed. James talks about "the perfect law of liberty" which is the law of grace and faith just the same. Paul also referred to himself as a "free man in Christ", meaning that Paul became all things to all men to win souls for Christ, which sometimes meant having to respect the laws of the land by doing them where he entered to witness Christ, even though those laws went against the law of liberty in Christ.

I'm still waiting on you to explain what you believe Philippians 2:13 means. Are unwilling or unable to do that?

[Kevin007]

Alright then, Kevin or Lily--answer this question for me if you will. How can your justification by faith be a "one time event", when Gods word tells you that it's possible for faith to die and to fall from grace?

Either one of you can pick this up if you choose to, but if you answer, please include scripture to support your explanation (not someone's website). Please no unrelated commentary or long emotional rants.

hey Terry! Paul is speaking to the jews that by relying on their laws (ex; circumcision), that Jesus' grace is of no benefit to them. Falling from grace in this context is Paul's warning to the Galatians. The purpose of Paul’s letter to the Galatians was to warn against the Judaizers because they attempted to lure saved Believer's back to justification through the Law. Paul never mentions salvation here. They were trying to mix the OT law with grace.

[Kevin007]

As I said Kevin, while I appreciate the time and effort Lily put into her video, the entire video is based upon a false premise being that Lily is using scripture to refute "good works" that are meant to refute "the works of the law"/the Mosaic law.

What that video is actually promoting is the contradiction of scripture by asserting that good works are not necessary for our salvation, when Paul, James, Hebrews, Rev. and the entire NT are telling us that without these good works our faith is dead. Dead faith can not justify you or anyone. Good works are the essential element of faith that justifies us, of which without--you are told you have no faith at all--it dies.

How can our justification be a permanent "one time event", when you are told that faith can die without good works? That is a blatant contradiction of scripture and is why watching that video is a waste of time that could better be spent witnessing the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

This is the "works of the law" that Paul refers to that Lily is confusing with "good works".

Acts 13:39

And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.


This is the law of faith and good works that Paul teaches us that we are to do.

Romans 3:27

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.


1 Thessalonians 1:3

Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

2 Thessalonians 1:11

Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

James 2:17

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

none of those verses are speaking of a Believer's salvation.

[Kevin007]

"law" of faith is actually the principle of faith.

[Kevin007]

Terry- its not about what WE can do for God...because we cannot do anything for God that lasts- all our righteousness is as filty rags. It is all about what He did for us.

[Kevin007]

Could you explain to me exactly *how God empowers us then? Because I have the distinct feeling here that you just might be leaping tall buildings in a single bound or jetting from one astral plane to another in the blink of an eye.

You don't know how He strengthens and empowers us? Really? There is something called the Holy Spirit.

[Kevin007]

No. But you can be saved from the penalty of a crime before the crime itself is expunged. It's called expungible probation. To be offered expungible probation you must first admit that you actually committed the crime. Then you have to have a relationship with your probation officer. It's possible to mess up and stay on probation. But not checking in with your probation officer is a sure way to get "violated". It doesn't matter how much "good" you are doing on the outside world. If you don't remain in relationship with your probation officer you're going to jail. The hope of probation is that you will be rehabilitated during that period so that when it's over you won't commit any more crimes. When the probation is over, your record can be clean to the point that it's as if you never committed the crime in the first place.

Those who claim they are not guilty are not eligible for expungible probation. All they have a right to is a trial. If and the end of the trial they are found not guilty, then yes, you are right. They cannot be put on trial again. But those are people who are actually not guilty. They are not those who are receiving the mercy (grace) of the court.

The new covenant first described in Jeremiah 31 and then repeated in Hebrews 8 and Hebrews 10 talks about God writing His law in the hearts of believers such that there is a change to where they all personally know Him. And then He forever forgets their sins.

Hebrews 10:10-12
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

that is not disagreeing with my statement. Believer's are justified immediately when they accept Christ as Savior and the Spirit indwells them.

[Kevin007]

jmd, being empowered by God can be summed up into literally two words here: "knowledge and wisdom". We are empowered in our belief through the evidence of God revealing Himself to us through His own creation. It is the compelling evidence that drives us in faith to do what we have been called to do. God confirms Himself over and over in our lives as we live more for Christ and less for ourselves.

Gods empowerment is not some super-human power that manifests itself in such a way that we can lift buildings off their foundations or fly like birds. Gods empowerment is the evidence of Himself that gives hope, knowledge and wisdom. These are the things will cause us to understand what we've been called to do and why. They empower us in a sense that now our lives have meaning and purpose and we understand perfectly what we are suppose to do as a result of this same knowledge and wisdom.

Knowledge is only powerful and useful if it's applied in wisdom, otherwise knowledge is empty, vain and useless. So the power is spiritual in nature, but must be used in a physical way through our witness to others.

We have the knowledge that everything has been created--but wisdom tells us how they are or were created. Absent the wisdom of God--mankind fails to understand where creation begins or ends because they can not find the sources. Everything just keeps on going with no beginning or no end--same as God.

I'm sure that someone has explained this far better than I have in my own words, but I choose to explain this as I understand it.

So we are drawn to God simply by Him revealing Himself to us through His creation. This is Gods grace and power that is given to all mankind because it's the very evidence of God. When we're drawn to God by His grace/power--then it's up to us to either accept or reject this evidence through faith. "Through being the operative word". Which means that something has to happen as a result of seeing the power, evidence and grace of God "through faith". We either accept this truth and believe and act upon it in faith or many will not and walk away.

By grace and power we are drawn to God and through our own faith we either begin to act upon our belief or not. Hence--salvation is the gift and result of our accepting this truth and evidence and acting upon it in faith. Now we have been *empowered*---by grace and only through faith.

no no and hell no! Not one single reference to the Holy Spirit who draws us. Where in the world do you come up with this stuff? It is not biblical at all. It is your opinion only. How do you receive the Holy Spirit? By believing on Christ and being born again.

[Kevin007]

You haven't misstated me, but I'm not sure you understand me. Do you understand what it means to freely submit your will to someone else? If you freely submit your will to God and allow Him to work out His will in your life, how do you not have free will?

and this is called SANCTIFICATION, not salvation, which has already taken place. The only process is in sanctification.

[Terry1]

no no and hell no! Not one single reference to the Holy Spirit who draws us. Where in the world do you come up with this stuff? It is not biblical at all. It is your opinion only. How do you receive the Holy Spirit? By believing on Christ and being born again.

Who's faith are you exercising when you act upon it? It's not the Holy spirit that needs faith--it's you. You're guided by the Holy Spirit, he doesn't exercise your faith for you, otherwise what's the point of God testing our faith? God's not testing the Holy Spirit.

[Kevin007]

nothing we do apart from God is good. The Holy Spirit pushes us to do good works, but good works do not save us or keep us saved. If we disobey God, the Spirit we are still His children.

[jmdrake]

that is not disagreeing with my statement. Believer's are justified immediately when they accept Christ as Savior and the Spirit indwells them.

Well to be more explicit my disagreement is two-fold. You talked about someone being declared "not guilty". But in the legal system there are two ways your record can be cleaned. One is if you are found not guilty. That's the term you used. The other is if you plead guilty but you are given mercy by the court. That's expungible probation which is the term I used. In expungible probation while you are immediately saved from the penalty of your crime (justification as I see it), your record is not immediately expunged and the penalty of your crime can be reinstated if you do not remain in the probationary process (sanctification as I see it). You believe once someone is justified, that's it as far as the penalty is concerned. I look at the parable of the man who owed a great debt and was forgiven, but wasn't willing to forgive a smaller debt by his fellow servant, as a warning that the penalty for our sin can be reinstated if we choose not to live under grace. Note that I'm not saying that this comes just because I "sin too much." Anyway, the thing with analogies is that none of them are perfect. That's probably because none of us are perfect.

[Terry1]

hey Terry! Paul is speaking to the jews that by relying on their laws (ex; circumcision), that Jesus' grace is of no benefit to them. Falling from grace in this context is Paul's warning to the Galatians. The purpose of Paul’s letter to the Galatians was to warn against the Judaizers because they attempted to lure saved Believer's back to justification through the Law. Paul never mentions salvation here. They were trying to mix the OT law with grace.

And the point is that Paul was telling believers that it's possible to fall from grace, which by your OSAS belief isn't possible. Do you understand what the circumcision of the heart vs the circumcision of the law is? If you did, you wouldn't believe in OSAS. One circumcision was done by the dead works of the Mosaic law and the circumcision of the heart is through the law of faith.

You're quoting someone else again, not understanding what you're quoting.