Page 7 of 15 FirstFirst ... 56789 ... LastLast
Results 181 to 210 of 421

Thread: 10 Reasons Why Salvation By Works Does Not Work

  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    Reading comp alert!
    Ok, since you're more slippery than Bill Clinton, I can see that everything with you has to be asked in a very direct way.

    Is faith the same thing as "works" to you, yes or no?

    Once again, answer with a yes or no.

    You didn't do that last time. You like to play word games, so I can see that debating you is like trying to catch a greased pig.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau



  2. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  3. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    Ok, since you're more slippery than Bill Clinton, I can see that everything with you has to be asked in a very direct way.

    Is faith the same thing as "works" to you, yes or no?

    Once again, answer with a yes or no.

    You didn't do that last time. You like to play word games, so I can see that debating you is like trying to catch a greased pig.
    Who's playing word games here when explanations seem to be unimportant in your case? Faith isn't born in a vacuum Lily. It must be connected to us physically and have evidence of itself. The only way that "saving faith" can be of any good use is if it has good works. How can you separate "good works" from faith if the word of God is telling you explicitly that faith alone without them is dead. What possible logical conclusion would any thinking intelligent person come to understanding this fact?

    I'm not going to play your game--you answer that for yourself if you can.

    Now I am going to bed for real--LOL Good night and God bless again.

  4. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    Who's playing word games here when explanations seem to be unimportant in your case? Faith isn't born in a vacuum Lily. It must be connected to us physically and have evidence of itself. The only way that "saving faith" can be of any good use is if it has good works. How can you separate "good works" from faith if the word of God is telling you explicitly that faith alone without them is dead. What possible logical conclusion would any thinking intelligent person come to understanding this fact?

    I'm not going to play your game--you answer that for yourself if you can.

    Now I am going to bed for real--LOL Good night and God bless again.
    You're changing the topic. We weren't talking about what happens AFTER justification, we are talking about the initial "getting saved" moment.

    And just as I thought, you don't want to answer with a yes or no, because you can't. You want to have your cake and eat it too.

    When pinned down in this discussion, the ONLY thing you had, which you were reaching for, was to imply that the inner change the paraplegic had (putting his faith in Jesus) was a "work" - just so you can maintain your works salvation position.

    And now you're trying to back away from that? lol

    Playing word games might be fun for you, and it's definitely convenient, but you can't fool God.

    I will pray for you.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  5. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    You're changing the topic. We weren't talking about what happens AFTER justification, we are talking about the initial "getting saved" moment.

    And just as I thought, you don't want to answer with a yes or no, because you can't. You want to have your cake and eat it too.

    When pinned down in this discussion, the ONLY thing you had, which you were reaching for, was to imply that the inner change the paraplegic had (putting his faith in Jesus) was a "work" - just so you can maintain your works salvation position.

    And now you're trying to back away from that? lol

    Playing word games might be fun for you, and it's definitely convenient, but you can't fool God.

    I will pray for you.
    Asking if faith is the same thing as works is the same as asking if our bodies are food because without it we die or the earth is the sun because without it we're doomed. It means that one can not exist without the other because they are not mutually exclusive. Is your palm of your hand the fingers, is your heart your liver? No--they all function for a purpose together to give life--not that they must be the same thing to exist as such.

    That's it---I'm going to bed--I'm serious this time.



  6. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  7. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    Asking if faith is the same thing as works is the same as asking if our bodies are food because without it we die or the earth is the sun because without it we're doomed. It means that one can not exist without the other because they are not mutually exclusive. Is your palm of your hand the fingers, is your heart your liver? No--they all function for a purpose together to give life--not that they must be the same thing to exist as such.

    That's it---I'm going to bed--I'm serious this time.
    That wasn't the question. Again, you keep trying to go to what happens AFTER justification instead of the initial getting saved moment.

    You need to worry about justification FIRST, because without that, a person is not saved, and all the "works" in the world aren't going to save them.

    If that paraplegic died 5 minutes after receiving Christ, then he died saved, but without any works.

    There is no way around that except for doing your slippery, Clintonesque intellectual dishonesty of claiming faith IS a work.

    So once again, is faith a "work" yes or no?

    It's not that hard of a question.
    Last edited by lilymc; 10-22-2014 at 12:57 AM.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  8. #186
    I hear crickets ....again....
    Maybe she will watch your video and understand your question and position...
    Last edited by navy-vet; 10-22-2014 at 12:29 AM.

  9. #187
    At any rate thank you all and to all a good night, amen

  10. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    That wasn't the question. Again, you keep trying to go to what happens AFTER justification instead of the initial getting saved moment.

    You need to worry about justification FIRST, because without that, a person is not saved, and all the "works" in the world aren't going to save them.

    If that paraplegic died 5 minutes after receiving Christ, then he died saved, but without any works.

    There is no way around that except for doing your slippery, Clintonesque intellectual dishonesty of claiming faith IS a work.

    So once again, is faith a "work" yes or no?

    It's not that hard of a question.
    You keep implying that I'm attempting to run from your questions by accusing me of being "slippery and dishonest". Maybe you should pay closer attention to what I've posted already and multiple times.

    I've already answered that here in post #125 http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...Not-Work/page5 . I realize that it's easy to miss posts when the thread starts moving faster, but those nasty accusations are unnecessary Lily.

    And just to confirm that post again here, so you don't think I'm as slippery as a "greased pig" and "dishonest" , I'll say it again. *Yes* anything we do in response to our belief in Christ is a "good work"--even confessing belief. We are physical beings, everything we do is associated with our minds, bodies and mouths. With your mind you believe, with your mouth you confess, with your body you're baptized into the spirit of the Lord--which then becomes His dwelling place until you're no longer in that body and it dies.

    Yes--it's a good work of faith of which without--again and again and again---you have no faith--because without these works--faith alone is dead.

    To answer your other question about those who "come late" to the Lord--maybe even on their death beds they confess Christ--Yes--they are exercising their faith in a "good work" simply by their belief with their minds and confession with their mouths. Jesus teaches us the parable of the vineyard workers. Those who came late received the same payment or reward as those who came early. This doesn't mean just because you came early, that you had no need to answer your calling in Christ because others came late who weren't able to other than confess belief in their dying breath. Confession of belief requires our mind and body--which is a "good work of faith and labor of love" as Paul says here.


    1 Thessalonians 1:3

    Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;


    2 Thessalonians 1:11

    Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
    Last edited by Terry1; 10-22-2014 at 07:32 AM.

  11. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    This^^ The reason ascetics and modern students of mindfulness/meditation work so hard at controlling thoughts is that thoughts are things. They manifest in your physical body and your mind. It's a pretty interesting area of study that combines neuroscience, psychology, and a few other disciplines.
    I wasn't ignoring your post here HB, the thread started moving and I missed this last night. Yes--this subject is fascinating with regard to the relationship between the physical and the spiritual. I think that some tend to ignore or completely miss the fact that all through the NT we're taught to overcome the flesh. Which is just another way of saying that to die more to our bodies is to live more in the spirit. Denying the flesh and feeding the spirit strengthens us spiritually, infusing us with the power of Christ to overcome temptations and trials.

    Because we are physical beings--every thought requires a physical reaction to give evidence that we are human beings capable of conceptualizing. What we think and how we react to those thoughts become actions that dictate who we are, what we believe and become the evidence to the people and world around us who can visually see our work and beliefs through our behavior.

    Many of these OSAS believers attempt to separate our minds from our bodies as if "faith" and our salvation were born in a vacuum and not connected to our physical bodies. What they're not understanding is when the Apostles of the NT teach us that we must overcome this world--what they're actually saying is that we must overcome our own physical bodies that are corrupt flesh and susceptible to the temptations of this world until the day we die. The physical body wars with the spirit of the Lord as Paul tells us that *what he would rather do spiritually, his physical body doesn't want to do*.

    Everything we do as a result of our faith and belief in Christ is a "good work" that takes a physical effort and it why it's paramount that these people debating this issue with us here and now understand why it's so important that they need to understand the difference between a "dead work of the law" vs "a work of faith with power".

    I know you can expand on this and articulate it far better than I can.
    Last edited by Terry1; 10-22-2014 at 07:19 AM.

  12. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    You keep implying that I'm attempting to run from your questions by accusing me of being "slippery and dishonest". Maybe you should pay closer attention to what I've posted already and multiple times.

    I've already answered that here in post #125 http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...Not-Work/page5 . I realize that it's easy to miss posts when the thread starts moving faster, but those nasty accusations are unnecessary Lily.

    And just to confirm that post again here, so you don't think I'm as slippery as a "greased pig" and "dishonest" , I'll say it again. *Yes* anything we do in response to our belief in Christ is a "good work"--even confessing belief. We are physical beings, everything we do is associated with our minds, bodies and mouths. With your mind you believe, with your mouth you confess, with your body you're baptized into the spirit of the Lord--which then becomes His dwelling place until you're no longer in that body and it dies.

    Yes--it's a good work of faith of which without--again and again and again---you have no faith--because without these works--faith alone is dead.

    To answer your other question about those who "come late" to the Lord--maybe even on their death beds they confess Christ--Yes--they are exercising their faith in a "good work" simply by their belief with their minds and confession with their mouths. Jesus teaches us the parable of the vineyard workers. Those who came late received the same payment or reward as those who came early. This doesn't mean just because you came early, that you had no need to answer your calling in Christ because others came late who weren't able to other than confess belief in their dying breath. Confession of belief requires our mind and body--which is a "good work of faith and labor of love" as Paul says here.


    1 Thessalonians 1:3

    Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;


    2 Thessalonians 1:11

    Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
    You really have a hard time answering with a simple yes or no, don't you?

    You also have a very sneaky habit of changing the question - ever so slightly - in order to maintain your position.

    I'll give you an example of that. My question to you was, "is faith a "work" yes or no?"

    And your answer was, : "*Yes* anything we do in response to our belief in Christ is a "good work"--even confessing belief." (translation: confessing belief is a work.)

    But notice, I didn't ask you about confessing belief, I asked about faith.

    Do you see how you slightly changed the question, instead of just answering with a yes or no?

    But since trying to get you to answer with a yes or no is more difficult than pulling teeth, I'm just going to take that answer as a "yes."

    Thanks. You're clearly ignoring the bible, common sense, and most likely ignoring your conscience and intuition.... but hey, at least you *somewhat* answered the question. Not in the way I asked you to answer it, but I have a feeling that's as close as it's going to get to a simple "yes" or "no."
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  13. #191
    It is an awesome sight to behold, that sword of truth in motion!

  14. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    You really have a hard time answering with a simple yes or no, don't you?

    You also have a very sneaky habit of changing the question - ever so slightly - in order to maintain your position.

    I'll give you an example of that. My question to you was, "is faith a "work" yes or no?"

    And your answer was, : "*Yes* anything we do in response to our belief in Christ is a "good work"--even confessing belief." (translation: confessing belief is a work.)

    But notice, I didn't ask you about confessing belief, I asked about faith.

    Do you see how you slightly changed the question, instead of just answering with a yes or no?

    But since trying to get you to answer with a yes or no is more difficult than pulling teeth, I'm just going to take that answer as a "yes."

    Thanks. You're clearly ignoring the bible, common sense, and most likely ignoring your conscience and intuition.... but hey, at least you *somewhat* answered the question. Not in the way I asked you to answer it, but I have a feeling that's as close as it's going to get to a simple "yes" or "no."
    I'll answer you again the same way I answered erowe who seems to believe as you do. Is your body food simply because it exists and needs food to live? Without food your body will die, same as with our faith--it exists, but without works it dies.

    You believing that faith exists on it's own astral plane of thought in a vacuum and apart from good works is the same as saying that the human body can exist without food. One exists only because the other is keeping it alive.

    I know what you want me to say. You want me to say that faith exists apart from our good works because you believe that our good works are only good for heavenly rewards and not salvation. Salvation does not exist in a vacuum either, you had to choose that gift and act upon it to make it of any effect. There are conditions upon accepting that gift. Faith is not the gift here--faith is your responsibility to keep and maintain through your good works. The gift was and is always salvation by Grace through faith. This is why we're saved BY grace and THROUGH FAITH. One is the gift only *through* the other. "Through faith" being the key phrase here. Without saving faith with works to give evidence of that same faith--then the gift being salvation by grace and through faith--can be of no effect either.

    Key phrase that OSAS misinterprets:

    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.



    "For by grace ye are saved"---------"through faith"--------and that not of yourselves: "IT" is a gift of God--not of works (works of the Mosaic Law)--lest any man should boast.

    You have to ask yourself what the "gift" is if it must go through the process of something else as "faith". We are told in the word of God that "faith is ours to keep and maintain.

    2 Timothy 4:7

    I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

    So what did Paul mean when he said--"I have kept the faith". What did Paul have to keep if it's a *free gift* as you say then?

    I will answer this for you. The gift is salvation--conditional upon remaining--abiding and doing the will of God "through faith" and "good works" as only it can be done--otherwise faith is dead and dead faith can not justify anyone.

    The gift is yours as long as you choose to keep and maintain that gift. Someone can give you a car, but if you let it sit for too long without driving it and maintaining it--then what happens to that gift? The car dies doesn't it--a battery needs charging in order for the car to run. It needs maintenance and upkeep and gas. Same as our salvation being only "through faith", if it's not maintained properly--it will die and grace then of no effect.
    Last edited by Terry1; 10-22-2014 at 01:37 PM.



  15. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  16. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    The question wasn't "Is faith without works dead?" The question was, "Do you believe works are are required to get saved?"

    If your answer is yes to that, then thank you. You are the type of person the video is for. (Someone earlier claimed that nobody has stated that works are necessary for salvation. But now you are on the record.)
    Is "getting saved" and "getting baptized" the same thing? I ask because John the Baptist said this in Matthew 3:8, "Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance". Which means, when put into context: Before being baptized, prove that you have turned from sin by doing worthy deeds.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  17. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    I could post tons of scriptures that differentiate faith and works. But I get the feeling that wouldn't matter to Terry.
    When I read about works and faith in the Bible, I tend to see it more in terms of "works without faith". For example, agnostics oftentimes use the argument that they don't really have to have faith, because as long as they are good people, and are moral, and treat others well, then if there IS a God, he will accept them at death. Also, at the time of the Biblical writings, some of the writers (like Paul) were Jewish converts, working to convert other Jews, and so it was a necessary understanding that they needed to accept Jesus as the Messiah in order to be "saved". And I'm sure the Jews used the same logic as agnostics do, so it became necessary to make it clear that they needed to believe (have faith) that Jesus was the Christ, and not just depend on good works.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  18. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    Is "getting saved" and "getting baptized" the same thing? I ask because John the Baptist said this in Matthew 3:8, "Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance". Which means, when put into context: Before being baptized, prove that you have turned from sin by doing worthy deeds.
    The concept of Baptism was not a new thing at that time. It was called Mikveh and was commonly practiced by the Jews. John the Baptist was a Jew, as well as Jesus.
    My point is, that it was not new to Christianity. John the Baptist was not doing something new - he was doing something that had been done for thousands of years.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikveh
    Experience teaches us that it is much easier to prevent an enemy from posting themselves than it is to dislodge them after they have got possession.
    ~ George Washington

  19. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Annie View Post
    The concept of Baptism was not a new thing at that time. It was called Mikveh and was commonly practiced by the Jews. John the Baptist was a Jew, as well as Jesus.
    My point is, that it was not new to Christianity. John the Baptist was not doing something new - he was doing something that had been done for thousands of years.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikveh
    Yes. But I fail to see the relevance of that point. Faith and grace were not new either. (Hint Hebrews 11).
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  20. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Annie View Post
    The concept of Baptism was not a new thing at that time. It was called Mikveh and was commonly practiced by the Jews. John the Baptist was a Jew, as well as Jesus.
    My point is, that it was not new to Christianity. John the Baptist was not doing something new - he was doing something that had been done for thousands of years.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikveh
    That's interesting, I didn't know that. I suppose some people like myself, tend to get confused some what about certain issues because we haven't fully grasped the fact that there were no Christians at the time of Jesus, there were Jews and what? Gentiles? And nothing else right?
    So, the rituals being practiced were either Jewish or pagan?
    Last edited by navy-vet; 10-22-2014 at 03:20 PM.

  21. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Yes. But I fail to see the relevance of that point. Faith and grace were not new either. (Hint Hebrews 11).
    Yea, there was not really relevance to the debate at hand. LOL. I just thought it was an interesting tidbit. Sort of a piece of interesting history. LOL.
    I agree, faith and grace were not new either. Speaking of faith and grace, Psalms 51 has been on my heart today.

    Ps 51:1 ¶ To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
    Ps 51:2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
    Ps 51:3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
    Ps 51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
    Ps 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
    Ps 51:6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
    Ps 51:7 ¶ Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
    Ps 51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
    Ps 51:9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
    Ps 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
    Ps 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
    Ps 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
    Ps 51:13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
    Ps 51:14 ¶ Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
    Ps 51:15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
    Ps 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
    Ps 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
    Ps 51:18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
    Ps 51:19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.
    Experience teaches us that it is much easier to prevent an enemy from posting themselves than it is to dislodge them after they have got possession.
    ~ George Washington

  22. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Annie View Post
    The concept of Baptism was not a new thing at that time. It was called Mikveh and was commonly practiced by the Jews. John the Baptist was a Jew, as well as Jesus.
    My point is, that it was not new to Christianity. John the Baptist was not doing something new - he was doing something that had been done for thousands of years.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikveh
    I'm still confused. So you're stating that getting saved is different than getting baptized, right? Even though baptism requires the gift of faith? It's only done in the Christian religion so, what exactly is the difference? And is there somewhere in the Bible where it states that baptism and salvation are two different things, and both are required? Or is it just implied, or interpreted that way? One other question: Is getting baptized a work?

    I know this isn't what you and Terry are arguing, I'm not a theologian type, I'm still trying to learn about all of this.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  23. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by navy-vet View Post
    It is an awesome sight to behold, that sword of truth in motion!
    I'm glad I'm not alone here... I've gotten a few messages from people who agree with us but don't feel like arguing on this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    Is "getting saved" and "getting baptized" the same thing? I ask because John the Baptist said this in Matthew 3:8, "Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance". Which means, when put into context: Before being baptized, prove that you have turned from sin by doing worthy deeds.
    If by getting baptized you mean the physical act of water baptism, then no.

    I believe that the act of water baptism (getting physically dunked in the water, as a symbol of the new believer's identification with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ) is an act of obedience after one gets saved. It's a public proclamation or outward testimony of the inner change that took place in that new believer.

    John the Baptist was speaking to the wicked Pharisees when he said, "Bear fruit in keeping with repentance" - as a way of saying, "If you have repented, then show it." I believe that he knew they hadn't truly repented, I think that is obvious because he just finished calling them a "brood of vipers" in the previous verse, verse 7.

    I think it's also apparent that John the Baptist knew that some of them were relying on the fact that they were physical descendants of Abraham, because in the following verse, he said, "and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father.’"

    So a person should have genuine faith and a genuine inner change before they get water baptized. And in my opinion, I think that most pastors or those who water baptize people can tell if a new Christian is genuine. I don't think a good pastor is going to water baptize someone who they know is unregenerate/ unrepentant/ unsaved. Why? Because it would be an empty, meaningless ceremony, instead of what it is supposed to be - a public demonstration or testimony of one's new life in Christ.

    All of this goes back to the same point. True faith and an inner change of mind/heart must take place first, because without that, a person isn't saved, no matter how many "works" they do or other physical things, like who they are related to.

    God cares about our heart!
    Last edited by lilymc; 10-22-2014 at 03:34 PM.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau



  24. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  25. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    If by getting baptized you mean the physical act of water baptism, then no.

    I believe that the act of water baptism (getting physically dunked in the water, as a symbol of the new believer's identification with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ) is an act of obedience after one gets saved. It's a public proclamation or outward testimony of the inner change that took place in that new believer.

    So a person should have genuine faith and a genuine inner change before they get water baptized. And in my opinion, I think that most pastors or those who water baptize people can tell if a new Christian is genuine. I don't think a good pastor is going to water baptize someone who they know is unregenerate/ unrepentant/ unsaved. Why? Because it would be an empty, meaningless ceremony, instead of what it is supposed to be - a public demonstration or testimony of one's new life in Christ.

    All of this goes back to the same point. True faith and an inner change of mind/heart must take place first, because without that, a person isn't saved, no matter how many "works" they do or other physical things, like who they are related to.
    So, a person can't be saved until they are baptized? I mean, it sounds to me like the same faith needed to be baptized is the same faith needed to be saved. It just seems to me that they are one and the same.

    Edit: Sorry, I missed the first part, where you state that being saved comes first. I'm still not convinced that both are needed. If you believe that Jesus is God's son, and that he died for your sins, when you get baptized, then you're essentially saved.
    Last edited by Deborah K; 10-22-2014 at 03:43 PM.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  26. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post

    I could post tons of scriptures that differentiate faith and works. But I get the feeling that wouldn't matter to Terry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    When I read about works and faith in the Bible, I tend to see it more in terms of "works without faith". For example, agnostics oftentimes use the argument that they don't really have to have faith, because as long as they are good people, and are moral, and treat others well, then if there IS a God, he will accept them at death. Also, at the time of the Biblical writings, some of the writers (like Paul) were Jewish converts, working to convert other Jews, and so it was a necessary understanding that they needed to accept Jesus as the Messiah in order to be "saved". And I'm sure the Jews used the same logic as agnostics do, so it became necessary to make it clear that they needed to believe (have faith) that Jesus was the Christ, and not just depend on good works.
    Deb, the problem with Lily quoting scripture that she *believes differentiate works and faith* are those she's confusing with the "good works" that we are taught to do.

    Lily is not understanding the difference between these two different types of works that Paul, James and the entire NT dedicate teaching to. No matter how many times she has been shown, told, taught, given scripture to back it up--nothing is penetrating her belief that all works are the same that the NT teaches. Constantly confusing OT testament Mosaic law of dead works with the good works, works of faith that we are taught to do as opposed to the dead work under the Mosaic Law.

    She needs to understand at the time Paul was living in then speaking to the Jews who rejected Christ and telling them to go back and live under "the law" (speaking of the Mosaic law) was a curse to them because that is the Law that Jesus fulfilled on the cross for them. Still not understanding that under the New Covenant of grace through faith--that "good works or works of faith" are absolutely essential for our salvation and to maintain our faith keeping it alive so that same faith can save and justify us in the eyes of God.

    Lily's belief in OSAS is that good works serve as nothing more than an extra curricular rewards system aside from salvation and that they are not necessary for salvation at all, which is false. If our good works are the only way to keep saving faith alive and faith being the only way to be justified in the eyes of God--how then can Lily still believe that dead faith is anything but dead and non existent.

    I understand Lily's passion, but not her inability to see clearly enough to rightly divide the word of God. These false doctrines are strong walls and hard to tear down.

  27. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    I'm still confused. So you're stating that getting saved is different than getting baptized, right? Even though baptism requires the gift of faith? It's only done in the Christian religion so, what exactly is the difference? And is there somewhere in the Bible where it states that baptism and salvation are two different things, and both are required? Or is it just implied, or interpreted that way? One other question: Is getting baptized a work?

    I know this isn't what you and Terry are arguing, I'm not a theologian type, I'm still trying to learn about all of this.
    Sorry for the confusion Deb.
    I really wasn't taking any position at all. The word baptism just sparked me to post a bit of interesting history that I have learned and found interesting.
    I was being a total irrelevant and unimportant interruption. LOL.
    Sorry love,...... back on the meds for the shingles and they do make me a bit goofy. LOL
    Experience teaches us that it is much easier to prevent an enemy from posting themselves than it is to dislodge them after they have got possession.
    ~ George Washington

  28. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    So, a person can't be saved until they are baptized? I mean, it sounds to me like the same faith needed to be baptized is the same faith needed to be saved. It just seems to me that they are one and the same.
    No, that's not what I said. We are saved by Grace, through faith.... putting our full faith and trust in Jesus, not in ourselves, and believing that HE is the only way to salvation.

    Water baptism is just a physical act that is a public proclamation of our new faith and new life in Christ. It's not what saves us!

    All true believers should do it, yes.

    But water baptism is not something that absolutely HAS TO HAPPEN in order to be saved.

    There are many examples of people who were saved but did not get dunked in water, like the thief on the cross, and others who - for whatever reason- could not get water baptized.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  29. #205
    Oh. Okay. Thanks for the additional bit of history. *hugs* And yes, Psalms 51 is very comforting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Annie View Post
    Yea, there was not really relevance to the debate at hand. LOL. I just thought it was an interesting tidbit. Sort of a piece of interesting history. LOL.
    I agree, faith and grace were not new either. Speaking of faith and grace, Psalms 51 has been on my heart today.

    Ps 51:1 ¶ To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
    Ps 51:2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
    Ps 51:3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
    Ps 51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
    Ps 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
    Ps 51:6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
    Ps 51:7 ¶ Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
    Ps 51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
    Ps 51:9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
    Ps 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
    Ps 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
    Ps 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
    Ps 51:13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
    Ps 51:14 ¶ Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
    Ps 51:15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
    Ps 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
    Ps 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
    Ps 51:18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
    Ps 51:19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  30. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    I'm glad I'm not alone here... I've gotten a few messages from people who agree with us but don't feel like arguing on this thread.



    If by getting baptized you mean the physical act of water baptism, then no.

    I believe that the act of water baptism (getting physically dunked in the water, as a symbol of the new believer's identification with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ) is an act of obedience after one gets saved. It's a public proclamation or outward testimony of the inner change that took place in that new believer.

    John the Baptist was speaking to the wicked Pharisees when he said, "Bear fruit in keeping with repentance" - as a way of saying, "If you have repented, then show it." I believe that he knew they hadn't truly repented, I think that is obvious because he just finished calling them a "brood of vipers" in the previous verse, verse 7.

    I think it's also apparent that John the Baptist knew that some of them were relying on the fact that they were physical descendants of Abraham, because in the following verse, he said, "and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father.’"

    So a person should have genuine faith and a genuine inner change before they get water baptized. And in my opinion, I think that most pastors or those who water baptize people can tell if a new Christian is genuine. I don't think a good pastor is going to water baptize someone who they know is unregenerate/ unrepentant/ unsaved. Why? Because it would be an empty, meaningless ceremony, instead of what it is supposed to be - a public demonstration or testimony of one's new life in Christ.

    All of this goes back to the same point. True faith and an inner change of mind/heart must take place first, because without that, a person isn't saved, no matter how many "works" they do or other physical things, like who they are related to.

    God cares about our heart!
    Well heaven forbid sinners get baptized because they're sinners Lily. What in the world are you saying here? How can you or anyone be the judge of genuine faith when you don't understand what saving genuine faith is yet? If we have to be judged by our own brethren on whether or not we're worthy to be baptized, then who has hope?

    When an unsaved person confesses Christ as their Lord and Savior--they are repenting at that point as best they know how to, being a babe in the wilderness. What more is required at confession, after all isn't that all you believe is necessary to be once saved always saved? You can't just turn around and say that person was never saved because later they changed their mind and abandoned Christ never to return. I don't even know why anyone would believe such a thing, but many do--sadly so.

  31. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Annie View Post
    Sorry for the confusion Deb.
    I really wasn't taking any position at all. The word baptism just sparked me to post a bit of interesting history that I have learned and found interesting.
    I was being a total irrelevant and unimportant interruption. LOL.
    Sorry love,...... back on the meds for the shingles and they do make me a bit goofy. LOL
    Prayers for a speedy recovery, dearest!
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  32. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    When I read about works and faith in the Bible, I tend to see it more in terms of "works without faith". For example, agnostics oftentimes use the argument that they don't really have to have faith, because as long as they are good people, and are moral, and treat others well, then if there IS a God, he will accept them at death. Also, at the time of the Biblical writings, some of the writers (like Paul) were Jewish converts, working to convert other Jews, and so it was a necessary understanding that they needed to accept Jesus as the Messiah in order to be "saved". And I'm sure the Jews used the same logic as agnostics do, so it became necessary to make it clear that they needed to believe (have faith) that Jesus was the Christ, and not just depend on good works.
    Yes... I agree that many people in the world (agnostics, people who say they are "spiritual but not religious", etc) believe that their own actions and doing good deeds is all that matters.

    It's very common for nonbelievers to say things like, "I'm a good person, so when I die, if there is a heaven, I think I'll be there."

    But the bible says that there is NO ONE who is righteous, not even one.

    That's why everyone needs Jesus.

    Sadly, many people take the wide road instead of the narrow path.


    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    Well heaven forbid sinners get baptized because they're sinners Lily. What in the world are you saying here? How can you or anyone be the judge of genuine faith when you don't understand what saving genuine faith is yet? If we have to be judged by our own brethren on whether or not we're worthy to be baptized, then who has hope?

    When an unsaved person confesses Christ as their Lord and Savior--they are repenting at that point as best they know how to, being a babe in the wilderness. What more is required at confession, after all isn't that all you believe is necessary to be once saved always saved? You can't just turn around and say that person was never saved because later they changed their mind and abandoned Christ never to return. I don't even know why anyone would believe such a thing, but many do--sadly so.
    You completely missed the point.

    Of course we are all sinners, as I just said to Deb above - that's what the bible says, that NONE are righteous.

    However, when we truly repent (have that inner change of mind/heart) and put our faith and trust in Jesus, and become born again, we become a new creation, completely forgiven, a clean slate, sealed with the Holy Spirit. The righteousness of Jesus is imputed to us (I went over this in the video, you really should just watch it.)

    And after that INNER change, water baptism is a public, physical demonstration of that spiritual event that took place. Our death to our old self, and being resurrected to new life! That's why dunking in water is symbolic....it's symbolic of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, that WE as new believers identify with.

    My point was that the person who does the baptizing should believe that the person they are baptizing did indeed repent and genuinely come to Christ.

    Because if they are knowingly water baptizing an unrepentant sinner, then it's nothing but an empty, dishonest ceremony.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau



  33. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  34. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    No, that's not what I said. We are saved by Grace, through faith.... putting our full faith and trust in Jesus, not in ourselves, and believing that HE is the only way to salvation.

    Water baptism is just a physical act that is a public proclamation of our new faith and new life in Christ. It's not what saves us!

    All true believers should do it, yes.

    But water baptism is not something that absolutely HAS TO HAPPEN in order to be saved.

    There are many examples of people who were saved but did not get dunked in water, like the thief on the cross, and others who - for whatever reason- could not get water baptized.
    Sorry for misunderstanding. I edited my original post: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post5680094

    Okay, so baptism isn't necessary to be saved, but aren't you saved when you are baptized, given that you wouldn't do it unless you believed Jesus was the son of God and died for our sins?
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  35. #210
    Okay. I honestly don't see a difference between what you two are saying in these two posts. Yes I know other posts are wildly divergent. But these two are quite similar. Here's the key to all of this. God knows what we would do if we could. That's why wanting to kill someone is the same as killing her/him in God's eyes and wanting to sleep with someone is the same as sleeping with him/her in God's eyes. Conversely wanting to live a life pleasing to God is the same as living a life pleasing to God in God's eyes. With "alive" faith there is a heart change. God works in us to will and to do His good pleasure. The will to do it comes first. Given enough time the "do" will come as well naturally. If you try to fake it and just say "I have faith" God sees through that. That is like the son who said "I'll go work in the harvest" but didn't. Then there was the son that said "I won't work in the harvest" but repented and did. If we're "working" to be saved or "professing faith" to be saved we aren't. Salvation comes from a loving trusting relationship with Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    I'll answer you again the same way I answered erowe who seems to believe as you do. Is your body food simply because it exists and needs food to live? Without food your body will die, same as with our faith--it exists, but without works it dies.

    You believing that faith exists on it's own astral plane of thought in a vacuum and apart from good works is the same as saying that the human body can exist without food. One exists only because the other is keeping it alive.

    I know what you want me to say. You want me to say that faith exists apart from our good works because you believe that our good works are only good for heavenly rewards and not salvation. Salvation does not exist in a vacuum either, you had to choose that gift and act upon it to make it of any effect. There are conditions upon accepting that gift. Faith is not the gift here--faith is your responsibility to keep and maintain through your good works. The gift was and is always salvation by Grace through faith. This is why we're saved BY grace and THROUGH FAITH. One is the gift only *through* the other. "Through faith" being the key phrase here. Without saving faith with works to give evidence of that same faith--then the gift being salvation by grace and through faith--can be of no effect either.

    Key phrase that OSAS misinterprets:

    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.



    "For by grace ye are saved"---------"through faith"--------and that not of yourselves: "IT" is a gift of God--not of works (works of the Mosaic Law)--lest any man should boast.

    You have to ask yourself what the "gift" is if it must go through the process of something else as "faith". We are told in the word of God that "faith is ours to keep and maintain.

    2 Timothy 4:7

    I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

    So what did Paul mean when he said--"I have kept the faith". What did Paul have to keep if it's a *free gift* as you say then?

    I will answer this for you. The gift is salvation--conditional upon remaining--abiding and doing the will of God "through faith" and "good works" as only it can be done--otherwise faith is dead and dead faith can not justify anyone.

    The gift is yours as long as you choose to keep and maintain that gift. Someone can give you a car, but if you let it sit for too long without driving it and maintaining it--then what happens to that gift? The car dies doesn't it--a battery needs charging in order for the car to run. It needs maintenance and upkeep and gas. Same as our salvation being only "through faith", if it's not maintained properly--it will die and grace then of no effect.
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    I'm glad I'm not alone here... I've gotten a few messages from people who agree with us but don't feel like arguing on this thread.



    If by getting baptized you mean the physical act of water baptism, then no.

    I believe that the act of water baptism (getting physically dunked in the water, as a symbol of the new believer's identification with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ) is an act of obedience after one gets saved. It's a public proclamation or outward testimony of the inner change that took place in that new believer.

    John the Baptist was speaking to the wicked Pharisees when he said, "Bear fruit in keeping with repentance" - as a way of saying, "If you have repented, then show it." I believe that he knew they hadn't truly repented, I think that is obvious because he just finished calling them a "brood of vipers" in the previous verse, verse 7.

    I think it's also apparent that John the Baptist knew that some of them were relying on the fact that they were physical descendants of Abraham, because in the following verse, he said, "and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father.’"

    So a person should have genuine faith and a genuine inner change before they get water baptized. And in my opinion, I think that most pastors or those who water baptize people can tell if a new Christian is genuine. I don't think a good pastor is going to water baptize someone who they know is unregenerate/ unrepentant/ unsaved. Why? Because it would be an empty, meaningless ceremony, instead of what it is supposed to be - a public demonstration or testimony of one's new life in Christ.

    All of this goes back to the same point. True faith and an inner change of mind/heart must take place first, because without that, a person isn't saved, no matter how many "works" they do or other physical things, like who they are related to.

    God cares about our heart!
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

Page 7 of 15 FirstFirst ... 56789 ... LastLast


Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 27
    Last Post: 05-10-2015, 11:33 AM
  2. OSAS (by their own logic) = Salvation by works
    By jmdrake in forum Peace Through Religion
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 09-27-2014, 08:14 PM
  3. For FreedomFanatic: Theosis is NOT salvation by works
    By heavenlyboy34 in forum Peace Through Religion
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11-14-2013, 11:38 PM
  4. Right to Work Works!
    By FrankRep in forum U.S. Political News
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 12-09-2012, 09:58 AM
  5. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 09-06-2011, 11:19 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •