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Thread: 10 Reasons Why Salvation By Works Does Not Work

  1. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin007 View Post
    How is salvation not about work when faith is required? Isn't faith a work?

    The famous nineteenth century British pastor Charles Spurgeon once explained that when we are saved, we first think it was because we decided to follow Christ. Yet as we come to understand our sin and God's greatness, we realize we would never have chosen to follow Him unless He had first placed the desire within us. This illustration accurately describes what the Bible communicates regarding our human role in salvation. We are saved by God's grace upon us that leads us to place our faith in Him.

    Faith is not a work because it is something God must do within us. On our own, we are sinful and would never choose Christ apart from His leading us to Himself. In fact, when we realize the extent to which God has worked to freely offer us salvation, we realize we can take no credit for our salvation. It is only because of Him.

    First, God's love is the initiator: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16).

    Second, Jesus is the author of our faith: "looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God" (Hebrews 12:2). Christ provides the opportunity for salvation and then offers it to us personally. Without Him, we would not have an option for salvation (Acts 4:12).

    Third, we are saved for good works, not by good works: "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:10).

    Believing is not a work, but a response to what God is doing in our lives. No one is righteous (Romans 3:10). We are not saved by works we have done (Titus 3:5). Only Christ can save.

    We may not completely understand the full distinction between our faith response and God's salvation in our lives. However, it is clear in Scripture that salvation is not something we earn by any work yet we must trust in Him by faith. Perhaps the analogy of a gift found in Ephesians 2:8-9 best expresses this idea: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." Work is contrasted with a gift.

    When we receive a gift, we do not consider it "work" to open the gift. What we have received is free. We simply need to open it to enjoy it. The same is true of salvation. It is a gift God freely offers. We need not work to earn it. Rather, we only need to receive it. When we do, we experience joy and desire to share this joy with others.

    Read more: http://www.compellingtruth.org/faith...#ixzz3GqTyOtNI
    You can cut and paste web sites all day long Lily. The fact remains that in order to live a life in Christ towards the kingdom of heaven--and the only way that faith is alive is by us physically responding to that call in these bodies. No matter what you say or do--think or believe--it all takes a physical reaction of the body and brain to complete faith as in good works. Without a body, we're dead and so is faith without a body to give evidence of what that body believes. Every single thought you think is a physical action of the brain that tells the body what to do in response to that thought.



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  3. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    No, it's not "rocking my world" at all, because I see exactly what you're doing. You're playing games and you are showing you will go to ANY length at all to maintain your position. Even to the point of absurdity and self-deception.

    The bible differentiates between faith and works, Terry. Trying to claim faith is a work is a cop-out at best... and intentional dishonesty at worst.

    But I know why you're doing this, so.... I'm not going to pressure you to recant.
    Am I playing games Lily or is this you beginning to understand that "faith without works is dead" as we are without bodies to perform the good work of faith through our thoughts and deeds.



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  5. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    Am I playing games Lily or is this you beginning to understand that "faith without works is dead" as we are without bodies to perform the good work of faith through our thoughts and deeds.
    Yes, I believe you are playing games. I think you are being intellectually dishonest, because apparently maintaining your position is more important to you than anything else.

    An inner change of mind/heart and faith is not the same thing as works. If it was, then the bible wouldn't differentiate the two.

    So, no offense, but I'm not interested in trying to have a discussion with someone who I believe is fooling themself.

    The bible says something about that too.
    Last edited by lilymc; 10-21-2014 at 10:59 PM.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  6. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    You can cut and paste web sites all day long Lily. The fact remains that in order to live a life in Christ towards the kingdom of heaven--and the only way that faith is alive is by us physically responding to that call in these bodies. No matter what you say or do--think or believe--it all takes a physical reaction of the body and brain to complete faith as in good works. Without a body, we're dead and so is faith without a body to give evidence of what that body believes. Every single thought you think is a physical action of the brain that tells the body what to do in response to that thought.
    This^^ The reason ascetics and modern students of mindfulness/meditation work so hard at controlling thoughts is that thoughts are things. They manifest in your physical body and your mind. It's a pretty interesting area of study that combines neuroscience, psychology, and a few other disciplines.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  7. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin007 View Post
    Is Salvation Really Free?

    By Rick Warren — May 21, 2014

    16

    “All need to be made right with God by his grace, which is a free gift. They need to be made free from sin through Jesus Christ.” (Romans 3:24 NCV)



    If you were to ask 100 people on the sidewalk, “How do you get to Heaven?” you’d get a lot of different answers that could be summarized by the idea that you have to earn your way to Heaven. You’d hear things like, “Try to be good and do your best” or “Work really hard at being a moral person” or “Do more good things in life than you do bad things.” All of these ideas are based on works, not grace.


    But salvation is a gift, and you don’t work for a gift. It’s free! You can’t earn it, you can’t buy it, and you can’t work for it.
    This is the fundamental difference between Christianity and every other religion. Christianity is the only religion that’s built on grace. Every other religion is based on works, and you can summarize them in one word: “do.” There are certain things you have do in order to gain God’s approval, to gain bliss, to gain heaven. There are always rules, regulations, and rituals — something you have to do.


    On the other hand, if you were to summarize Christianity in one word, it’s the word “done.” Jesus Christ has already paid the price for you on the cross. It’s done!


    A guy asked me one time, “Pastor Rick, what can I do to be saved?” I said, “You’re too late!” (That kind of shocked him.) “You’re about 2,000 years too late! What needed to be done for your salvation has already been done, and you can’t do anything about it.”


    Jesus Christ already did it. He paid for your salvation on the cross, and it’s now a free gift to you. That’s why when he was hanging on the cross, he said, “It is finished.” He didn’t say, “I am finished,” because he wasn’t. He’s still alive today. The “it” is your salvation. The plan to provide grace for every person is finished.


    Romans 3:24 says, “All need to be made right with God by his grace, which is a free gift. They need to be made free from sin through Jesus Christ” (NCV).
    You won’t get to Heaven based on what you do. You get to Heaven based on what has already been done for you by Jesus Christ.
    When you really understand grace, you will accept it, because it is the greatest gift you’re ever going to be offered.

    Talk It Over




    • Why do you think it’s so hard for people to accept a free gift? Why would they rather work for it?
    • What do you think God expects you to do after you’ve accepted his gift of salvation?
    • What effect has the freedom of salvation had on your life?


    http://rickwarren.org/devotional/eng...on-really-free
    You're quoting Rick Warren the crazy cross hater? The guy who endorses Chrislam and believes in tearing down every cross and symbol of the Lord to attract unbelievers? This guy is a real piece of evil work and is why you're so confused listening to likes of him.

  8. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    Yes, I believe you are playing games. I think you are being intellectually dishonest, because apparently maintaining your position is more important to you than anything else.

    An inner change of mind/heart and faith is not the same thing as works. If it was, then the bible wouldn't differentiate the two.

    So, no offense, but I'm not interested in trying to have a discussion with someone who I believe is fooling themself.

    The bible says something about that too.
    Terry wasn't that articulate in the post you quoted, but she was correct. But, do as you will. ~hugs~
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  9. #157
    I haven't seen a Rick Warren sermon in my life, but he is right about salvation being a gift.
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

  10. #158
    I see Terry is ignoring my simple question. Terry- do you believe you can save yourself?
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

  11. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    You're quoting Rick Warren the crazy cross hater? The guy who believes in tearing down every cross and symbol of the Lord to attract unbelievers? This guy is a real piece of evil work and is why you're so confused listening to likes of him.
    I don't like Rick Warren either, but it's a logical fallacy to imply that something is untrue simply because of who wrote it.

    Every statement should be judged on its own merits, instead of conveniently throwing it out to avoid dealing with it. There's that self-deception again.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  12. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Terry wasn't that articulate in the post you quoted, but she was correct. But, do as you will. ~hugs~
    I'm a terrible proof reader, type too fast and hit the *send* button without checking for errors. I am guilty as charged and I repent. I will try to improve my syntax and repent of spelling errors.



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  14. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin007 View Post
    I see Terry is ignoring my simple question. Terry- do you believe you can save yourself?

    .....
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

  15. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Terry wasn't that articulate in the post you quoted, but she was correct. But, do as you will. ~hugs~
    If faith was a work then her favorite scripture, "faith without works is dead" would itself be nonsensical. As would numerous other scriptures.

    But again, I can see why you guys want it to be a work.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  16. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    I don't like Rick Warren either, but it's a logical fallacy to imply that something is untrue simply because of who wrote it.

    Every statement should be judged on its own merits, instead of conveniently throwing it out to avoid dealing with it. There's that self-deception again.
    Sources are only credible based upon their frequency of being accurate. Rick Warren has some serious spiritual issues going on there. Using him as a source for truth is a real stretch of the imagination at best.

  17. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    This is why I wish she would've watched the video.

    That was one of the points. If salvation depends on our own works, then Jesus died in vain. We become our own Savior....which of course is impossible, since we are not the spotless, sinless lamb of God.

    I think it might be some sort of blind spot for some people to not realize that if you add even one work (as a requirement) to salvation, then it's no longer about Grace.

    That was also mentioned in the video, that sadly Terry didn't bother to watch.
    exactly.
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

  18. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    I don't like Rick Warren either, but it's a logical fallacy to imply that something is untrue simply because of who wrote it.

    Every statement should be judged on its own merits, instead of conveniently throwing it out to avoid dealing with it. There's that self-deception again.
    Yes, it's fallacious, but not false. (see "fallacy fallacy")In practice, quoting an unreliable source is a bad idea when forming logical arguments. No matter where you go, people will consider your source-whether defending a thesis, persuading a boss, or debating on the interwebz or anything else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  19. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    Which prayer is that, friend?
    the Christian Prayer or Lord's Prayer
    Christian Prayer: An Interpretation For All Of Us
    The model for Christian prayer in Matthew 6 is known as the Lord's Prayer. Many of us have recited this prayer for years, but have never truly meditated on its meaning. The following are spiritual snippets based on the Lord's Prayer that can help deepen your prayer life with God:

    "Our Father" - God wants us to approach Him as "Daddy" (Aramaic: Abba). He wants to take care of us and protect us. God desires intimacy. Remember, He has infinite love and grace. God wants us to be secure in His family as adopted children and heirs.

    "Which Art in Heaven" -- Look up to God. Fear Him and revere Him. He is all-powerful and can deal with all our problems, even the big ones. But He loves us so much that He doesn't stay up there.

    "Hallowed be Thy Name" -- Holy, holy, holy. Approach God with awe and wonder. Save the word "awesome" for God. Live a life that honors Him.

    "Thy Kingdom Come" - "Take this job and love it!" Working on behalf of God's kingdom is the ultimate joy. Bloom where you're planted. Do everything as unto the Lord. Find your gifts and use them. Be open to God's leading each day.

    "Thy Will Be Done" - God is the potter; we are the clay. God keeps us spinning on His potter's wheel, shaping and reshaping us as He bathes our lives in tears to make us more Christ-like so He can use us for His will. Surrender daily. Keep your clay moist through daily prayer.

    "On Earth as it is in Heaven" -- Thy will be done - not my will be done!

    "Give Us This Day Our Daily Bread" - Trust! God will provide for our needs. His eye is on the sparrow and I know He cares for me.

    "Forgive Us Our Debts as We Forgive Our Debtors" -- Forgiveness = Surrender. Don't carry your own backpack - surrender it to Him. Revealing the feeling is the beginning of healing. Act as if you have forgiven and the feeling will follow. In our weakness, God sends His strength and peace.

    "Lead Us Not Into Temptation" - Watch for unrecognized temptation. Pray, so you won't fall. We are tempted every day. It deepens our walk and strengthens our faith - but be careful of spiritual blindness. Open my eyes, Lord, to my blind spots - use honest friends and family.

    "Deliver Us From Evil" -- The Evil One, Satan. We are saved from death to life. Jesus is more powerful than Satan - God is greater!

    "For Thine Is the Kingdom (obedience), and the Power (confidence) and the Glory (joy), Forever" -- This is our Father's world. Everything we have is His. He is the ruler!
    - See more at: http://www.allaboutgod.com/christian....ddMANByj.dpuf

  20. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin007 View Post
    I see Terry is ignoring my simple question. Terry- do you believe you can save yourself?
    You chose to accept the gift--did you save yourself? Did God force you to choose Him? Salvation's a gift based upon the condition that we continually choose Christ and to the end of our lives. Are you now saying that you don't believe in a free will?

  21. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    If faith was a work then her favorite scripture, "faith without works is dead" would itself be nonsensical. As would numerous other scriptures.

    But again, I can see why you guys want it to be a work.
    Unclear antecedent is unclear. Plz be coherent next time. If you're trying to claim we argue that faith is a work, you haven't been paying attention.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12



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  23. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    You chose to accept the gift--did you save yourself? Did God force you to choose Him? Salvation's a gift based upon the condition that we continually choose Christ and to the end of our lives. Are you now saying that you don't believe in a free will?
    no it is not. Again, you are not understanding the difference between salvation, justification and sanctification.
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

  24. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    You chose to accept the gift--did you save yourself? Did God force you to choose Him? Salvation's a gift based upon the condition that we continually choose Christ and to the end of our lives. Are you now saying that you don't believe in a free will?
    if salvation were based upon a condition 1. It is no longer a gift and 2. No ONE would/could do it.
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

  25. #171
    did you miss this part?
    Ephesians 2:8,9
    Parallel Verses
    New International Version
    8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.…
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

  26. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Unclear antecedent is unclear. Plz be coherent next time. If you're trying to claim we argue that faith is a work, you haven't been paying attention.
    That's what Terry seems to be claiming.

    Are you saying that you don't believe faith is a work?
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  27. #173
    btw- salvation is a spiritual gift, not a physical one.
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

  28. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin007 View Post
    did you miss this part?
    Ephesians 2:8,9
    Parallel Verses
    New International Version
    For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.…
    I could post tons of scriptures that differentiate faith and works. But I get the feeling that wouldn't matter to Terry.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  29. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin007 View Post
    no it is not. Again, you are not understanding the difference between salvation, justification and sanctification.
    Your salvation is justification and sanctification all rolled into one gift that you chose. What are you attempting to separate here? You're either saved and living in a state of elect or you're not. You either have saving faith and good works or you don't. Now you're doing a dosey-doe to avoid the fact that everything you physically do is a "good work"--even your thoughts are a physical good work using your physical brain telling your physical body what to do in response to your belief.

    Faith without works is dead and so are you without a body that the spirit can inhabit. You're a worker kevin---you and Lily both.

  30. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin007 View Post
    btw- salvation is a spiritual gift, not a physical one.
    And how does the spirit of the Lord work then--where does it live and how to do you respond to it? Yep--you're a worker.



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  32. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    And how does the spirit of the Lord work then--where does it live and how to do you respond to it? Yep--you're a worker.
    we don't work to get or stay saved.
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

  33. #178
    Jeez--I have to get to bed--I've lost track of time. 7AM is going to come too soon. Good night all and God bless. zzzzzzz

  34. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    Your salvation is justification and sanctification all rolled into one gift that you chose. What are you attempting to separate here? You're either saved and living in a state of elect or you're not. You either have saving faith and good works or you don't. Now you're doing a dosey-doe to avoid the fact that everything you physically do is a "good work"--even your thoughts are a physical good work using your physical brain telling your physical body what to do in response to your belief.

    Faith without works is dead and so are you without a body that the spirit can inhabit. You're a worker kevin---you and Lily both.
    You are avoiding so many things, in order to maintain your church's position.

    Jesus said, "You must be born again." He repeated Himself, and stated that emphatically, that no one can enter the kingdom of God if they are not born again.

    Justification HAS to happen first, before there can be any true sanctification.

    So, while they DO go together, if justification never occurs, then a person is not saved. Therefore, all the "works" in the world aren't really going to matter much, at the end of the day.

    If you would've watched the video, you would've known that all of this was addressed.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  35. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    That's what Terry seems to be claiming.

    Are you saying that you don't believe faith is a work?
    Reading comp alert! I am going to bed this time.

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