Oh, so now you have me "on record" do you? LOL Okay then, you're clear that faith without works is dead then? Now if you can find any scripture that says that dead faith can justify you, then I'd like to see that one too.Originally Posted by lilymc
We are not talking about AFTER one is saved.
James was speaking to believers. He was speaking to people who already were saved. (One clue for that is that he uses the word "Brethren" over and over). There may have been some people who professed to be Christians but weren't actually saved, but that's another issue.
So the question was about getting saved in the first place. So your answer is "yes" works are required to get saved?
“I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”
― Henry David Thoreau
Well how can you be saved without engaging the body, mind, mouth, heart and lips? It's a physical response to your belief. That is a "good work" or as Paul calls it--"a work of faith". Anything you choose to do in response to your belief is a work Lily--whether you *choose to acknowledge that fact or not. This is why faith is dead without works.
IT ISN'T a good work to accept a free gift, no.
Ephesians 2:8-9-
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Oh but it is a "good work" to confess Christ. It takes a physical action that involves your mind, body, tongue and lips. We are physical beings-- Jesus told you that if your light doesn't shine--it's not there and the only way to glorify the Father in heaven. We have physical brains with free wills that are meant to be used in choosing whatever we want to believe in.
so you take credit then for your salvation, because you did something? Is that what you are saying?
And a response, like putting your arms up to accept a GIFT is not a work. It is a natural response. According to your line of thinking it is a work to breathe too. The whole point of a gift is that you did nothing to earn it.
Ephesians 2:8-9-
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Faith and an inner change of mind/heart is not the same thing as "works."
The scriptures constantly differentiate between faith and works.
So if you are now trying to lump in faith or a change of mind/heart with "works" then that to me sounds like a convenient but deceptive way to have your cake and eat it too.
Again, I'm not talking about what happens AFTER one receives Jesus and gets saved. We have been talking about the initial moment when a person changes their mind/heart, realizes they are a sinner in need of salvation and puts their faith in Jesus.
"Works" would be doing things, like going through the sacraments, doing good deeds, going to church, law keeping, water baptism, etc.
To get saved in the first place, people don't have to do all those things and jump through hoops. A saving faith - THAT is all that is needed to get saved in the first place.
The works come later.
Did you watch the video? I went over all of this in the vid.
“I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”
― Henry David Thoreau
Didn't you choose Christ with your brain, body and mouth? Does that mean you credit your salvation to yourself? Shoe's on the other foot now Kevin. You can come out of that corner killing pride now or you can wallow in it.
a choice is not a work. You did not answer my ? - was it a work to accept a gift from someone? Did you earn it? If the answer is NO, IT IS NOT A WORK. Pretty simple.
Ephesians 2:8-9-
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
I disagree Lily and no, I didn't watch your video because I was fairly confident that I already knew what was in it.Faith and an inner change of mind/heart is not the same thing as "works."
The scriptures constantly differentiate between faith and works.
So if you are now trying to lump in faith or a change of mind/heart with "works" then that to me sounds like a convenient but deceptive way to have your cake and eat it too.
Again, I'm not talking about what happens AFTER one receives Jesus and gets saved. We have been talking about the initial moment when a person changes their mind/heart, realizes they are a sinner in need of salvation and puts their faith in Jesus.
"Works" would be doing things, like going through the sacraments, doing good deeds, going to church, law keeping, water baptism, etc.
To get saved in the first place, people don't have to do all those things and jump through hoops. A saving faith - THAT is all that is needed to get saved in the first place.
The works come later.
Did you watch the video? I went over all of this in the vid.
It is a "good work" to confess Christ Lily--this is undisputable. Without a physical brain and a body that the spirit can inhabit--there is only death of this life. If your body and brain do something in faith--then you are doing a "good work" because that's the only way faith can work and live--otherwise--it's dead. Dead faith can not justify you.
Terry- your understanding of a work is wrong. Please show me in the Bible where accepting Jesus as Savior was a work?
You even know that salvation is a gift, right? Like Lily said you cannot have it both ways. The pride is coming from you, not me. I checked my pride at the door. I even apologized to you but you ignored it. Now that is PRIDE.
Ephesians 2:8-9-
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Sola Fide would disagree with you. But he's not here to defend his position.
OH now you have psychic abilities too....I disagree Lily and no, I didn't watch your video because I was fairly confident that I already knew what was in it.
It is a "good work" to confess Christ Lily--this is undisputable. Without a physical brain and a body that the spirit can inhabit--there is only death of this life. If your body and brain do something in faith--then you are doing a "good work" because that's the only way faith can work and live--otherwise--it's dead. Dead faith can not justify you.
Ephesians 2:8-9-
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
then it should be easy for you to show it from the Bible. You could not have possibly ignored all the scriptures that say that salvation is a free gift, could you?I disagree Lily and no, I didn't watch your video because I was fairly confident that I already knew what was in it.
It is a "good work" to confess Christ Lily--this is undisputable. Without a physical brain and a body that the spirit can inhabit--there is only death of this life. If your body and brain do something in faith--then you are doing a "good work" because that's the only way faith can work and live--otherwise--it's dead. Dead faith can not justify you.
Ephesians 2:8-9-
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
- John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God to salvation to every one that believes; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 10:9 That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
http://www.godvine.com/bible/category/salvation
Ephesians 2:8-9-
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
thats nice.
Ephesians 2:8-9-
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Can you make a choice without a brain? Can your brain live without your body? You are doing a physical good work by confessing Christ. You're not a ghost yet. Everything we do is physical, even our thoughts take a physical action of the brain. Why do you think we are taught to have good thoughts and think on good things? It's part of who we are physically and spiritually. Everything you do in response to your belief in Christ is a "good work".
His argument is that anything that doesn't come from God is a work. If you choose Christ, rather than him choosing you, that's a work on your part. (His argument, not mine)
what did I just read...you are really really reaching. You look foolish now. Your credibility in this matter is very low. Take a step back and think about what you are saying. You are really saying a gift is a work.
Ephesians 2:8-9-
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
You chose to accept the gift didn't you. You engaged your physical brain to make a conscious choice and your body followed through---the spirit being your guide. We are part physical and part spirit if we reside in Christ. Everything we do is physical because we can *live* no other way. This is why faith MUST have works or else it's dead.
Let's go back to that previous example of a paraplegic, who is laying in a hospital bed, without being able to move or do anything, not even speak.I disagree Lily and no, I didn't watch your video because I was fairly confident that I already knew what was in it.
It is a "good work" to confess Christ Lily--this is undisputable. Without a physical brain and a body that the spirit can inhabit--there is only death of this life. If your body and brain do something in faith--then you are doing a "good work" because that's the only way faith can work and live--otherwise--it's dead. Dead faith can not justify you.
He had an inner change of mind/heart, he realized he was a sinner in need of God and in need of salvation, and in his mind He called out to Jesus and received the gift of salvation.
That is not a "work." That is having a repentant and humble heart, and putting one's faith in Jesus.
Again, it is very deceptive to now try to claim that is a "work."
But I can see why you'd want to do that.
Set aside the pride and just get real, Terry.
“I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”
― Henry David Thoreau
are you saying that you take credit in the free gift in salvation? Salvation is not of works, lest any man should boast. The gift of salvation is fully a free gift God gave us through His Son. Nothing we do can save us. If we could do anything to save ourselves than Jesus did not have to go to the Cross.
Ephesians 2:8-9-
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
My understanding is this. Terry thinks that she can save herself. Is this correct Terry? Can you save yourself? You can help God out? If yes, then why weren't you crucified at the Cross? Only a perfect sinless sacrifice would do and Jesus was the only person ever who could be in our place. The entire point of the Gospel message is salvation is a free gift. This is Religion 101, first chapter, 1st sentence.
Last edited by Kevin007; 10-21-2014 at 10:37 PM.
Ephesians 2:8-9-
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
It's unbelievable to me that you can try to twist the basics of the Gospel of Grace and Salvation into any kind of a "work". It is appalling and an insult to God (all 3 persons).
Ephesians 2:8-9-
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Is Salvation Really Free?
By Rick Warren — May 21, 2014
16
“All need to be made right with God by his grace, which is a free gift. They need to be made free from sin through Jesus Christ.” (Romans 3:24 NCV)
If you were to ask 100 people on the sidewalk, “How do you get to Heaven?” you’d get a lot of different answers that could be summarized by the idea that you have to earn your way to Heaven. You’d hear things like, “Try to be good and do your best” or “Work really hard at being a moral person” or “Do more good things in life than you do bad things.” All of these ideas are based on works, not grace.
But salvation is a gift, and you don’t work for a gift. It’s free! You can’t earn it, you can’t buy it, and you can’t work for it.
This is the fundamental difference between Christianity and every other religion. Christianity is the only religion that’s built on grace. Every other religion is based on works, and you can summarize them in one word: “do.” There are certain things you have do in order to gain God’s approval, to gain bliss, to gain heaven. There are always rules, regulations, and rituals — something you have to do.
On the other hand, if you were to summarize Christianity in one word, it’s the word “done.” Jesus Christ has already paid the price for you on the cross. It’s done!
A guy asked me one time, “Pastor Rick, what can I do to be saved?” I said, “You’re too late!” (That kind of shocked him.) “You’re about 2,000 years too late! What needed to be done for your salvation has already been done, and you can’t do anything about it.”
Jesus Christ already did it. He paid for your salvation on the cross, and it’s now a free gift to you. That’s why when he was hanging on the cross, he said, “It is finished.” He didn’t say, “I am finished,” because he wasn’t. He’s still alive today. The “it” is your salvation. The plan to provide grace for every person is finished.
Romans 3:24 says, “All need to be made right with God by his grace, which is a free gift. They need to be made free from sin through Jesus Christ” (NCV).
You won’t get to Heaven based on what you do. You get to Heaven based on what has already been done for you by Jesus Christ.
When you really understand grace, you will accept it, because it is the greatest gift you’re ever going to be offered.
Talk It Over
- Why do you think it’s so hard for people to accept a free gift? Why would they rather work for it?
- What do you think God expects you to do after you’ve accepted his gift of salvation?
- What effect has the freedom of salvation had on your life?
http://rickwarren.org/devotional/eng...on-really-free
Ephesians 2:8-9-
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
This is why I wish she would've watched the video.
That was one of the points. If salvation depends on our own works, then Jesus died in vain. We become our own Savior....which of course is impossible, since we are not the spotless, sinless lamb of God.
I think it might be some sort of blind spot for some people to not realize that if you add even one work (as a requirement) to salvation, then it's no longer about Grace.
That was also mentioned in the video, that sadly Terry didn't bother to watch.
“I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”
― Henry David Thoreau
How is salvation not about work when faith is required? Isn't faith a work?
The famous nineteenth century British pastor Charles Spurgeon once explained that when we are saved, we first think it was because we decided to follow Christ. Yet as we come to understand our sin and God's greatness, we realize we would never have chosen to follow Him unless He had first placed the desire within us. This illustration accurately describes what the Bible communicates regarding our human role in salvation. We are saved by God's grace upon us that leads us to place our faith in Him.
Faith is not a work because it is something God must do within us. On our own, we are sinful and would never choose Christ apart from His leading us to Himself. In fact, when we realize the extent to which God has worked to freely offer us salvation, we realize we can take no credit for our salvation. It is only because of Him.
First, God's love is the initiator: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16).
Second, Jesus is the author of our faith: "looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God" (Hebrews 12:2). Christ provides the opportunity for salvation and then offers it to us personally. Without Him, we would not have an option for salvation (Acts 4:12).
Third, we are saved for good works, not by good works: "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:10).
Believing is not a work, but a response to what God is doing in our lives. No one is righteous (Romans 3:10). We are not saved by works we have done (Titus 3:5). Only Christ can save.
We may not completely understand the full distinction between our faith response and God's salvation in our lives. However, it is clear in Scripture that salvation is not something we earn by any work yet we must trust in Him by faith. Perhaps the analogy of a gift found in Ephesians 2:8-9 best expresses this idea: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." Work is contrasted with a gift.
When we receive a gift, we do not consider it "work" to open the gift. What we have received is free. We simply need to open it to enjoy it. The same is true of salvation. It is a gift God freely offers. We need not work to earn it. Rather, we only need to receive it. When we do, we experience joy and desire to share this joy with others.
Read more: http://www.compellingtruth.org/faith...#ixzz3GqTyOtNI
Ephesians 2:8-9-
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Without a physical body, you're not alive. If you do have a physical body, which I assume you do--then every thing you do is physical--even thinking is a physical action of the brain. You can not avoid this truth or cover it up to support what you've chosen to believe. Everything you do in reaction to your belief in Christ is physical--even prayer which uses your mind and heart that are part of your physical body in which the spirit of the Lord dwells. Without a body--where does the spirit dwell?
Everything you do is a physical good work in response to your belief. I know this is rocking your and Kevin's worlds right now--hopefully so--we pray.
so Terry believes that she saved herself. Pride.
Ephesians 2:8-9-
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
No, it's not "rocking my world" at all, because I see exactly what you're doing. You're playing games and you are showing you will go to ANY length at all to maintain your position. Even to the point of absurdity and self-deception.Without a physical body, you're not alive. If you do have a physical body, which I assume you do--then every thing you do is physical--even thinking is a physical action of the brain. You can not avoid this truth or cover it up to support what you've chosen to believe. Everything you do in reaction to your belief in Christ is physical--even prayer which uses your mind and heart that are part of your physical body in which the spirit of the Lord dwells. Without a body--where does the spirit dwell?
Everything you do is a physical good work in response to your belief. I know this is rocking your and Kevin's worlds right now--hopefully so--we pray.
The bible differentiates between faith and works, Terry. Trying to claim faith is a work is a cop-out at best... and intentional dishonesty at worst.
But I know why you're doing this, so.... I'm not going to pressure you to recant.
“I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”
― Henry David Thoreau
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