10 Reasons Why Salvation By Works Does Not Work

[Terry1]

Yes... I agree that many people in the world (agnostics, people who say they are "spiritual but not religious", etc) believe that their own actions and doing good deeds is all that matters.

It's very common for nonbelievers to say things like, "I'm a good person, so when I die, if there is a heaven, I think I'll be there."

But the bible says that there is NO ONE who is righteous, not even one.

That's why everyone needs Jesus.

Sadly, many people take the wide road instead of the narrow path.




You completely missed the point.

Of course we are all sinners, as I just said to Deb above - that's what the bible says, that NONE are righteous.

However, when we truly repent (have that inner change of mind/heart) and put our faith and trust in Jesus, and become born again, we become a new creation, completely forgiven, a clean slate, sealed with the Holy Spirit. The righteousness of Jesus is imputed to us (I went over this in the video, you really should just watch it).

And after that INNER change, water baptism is a public, physical demonstration of that spiritual event that took place. Our death to our old self, and being resurrected to new life! That's why dunking in water is symbolic....it's symbolic of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, that WE as new believers identify with.

My point was that the person who does the baptizing should believe that the person they are baptizing did indeed repent and genuinely come to Christ.

Because if they are knowingly water baptizing an unrepentant sinner, then it's nothing but an empty, dishonest ceremony.

"Inner change" is a long time spiritual process that doesn't happen over-night. Spiritual character takes a life time to build. If people are judged unworthy of baptism by those doing it based upon their judgment of them spiritually--that is not only unbiblical, but not of the spirit of the Lord. Only God knows the hearts.

If someone repents and confesses Christ--they should be baptized if they so choose. No one can know the future spiritual life of anyone based upon their perceptions of them at baptism.

[lilymc]

Sorry for misunderstanding. I edited my original post: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post5680094

No worries.... Right after I posted I noticed that you added on to your previous post.

Okay, so baptism isn't necessary to be saved, but aren't you saved when you are baptized, given that you wouldn't do it unless you believed Jesus was the son of God and died for our sins?

Yes, we are saved before we get water baptized. It's something we do, to show the world that we have a new life in Christ!

Btw, I posted this on another thread, but I don't think you were posting on that thread, so if you want to see my water baptism, here is a video. (it happens near the beginning, so you don't watch the whole thing if you don't want to, of course)

[lilymc]

"Inner change" is a long time spiritual process that doesn't happen over-night. Spiritual character takes a life time to build. If people are judged unworthy of baptism by those doing it based upon their judgment of them spiritually--that is not only unbiblical, but not of the spirit of the Lord. Only God knows the hearts.

If someone repents and confesses Christ--they should be baptized if they so choose. No one can know the future spiritual life of anyone based upon their perceptions of them at baptism.

When you say that, you are trying to make justification and sanctification the same thing.

While they DO go together, they are not the same thing. Justification has to happen, and it has to happen first, or else there will be no true sanctification.

Spiritual growth and maturity take time, yes. Because sometimes people need to go through experiences to learn, grow, mature.... those things don't happen overnight.

However, justification is a one time event. And that HAS TO HAPPEN, or else a person is not saved.... and any "works" they do are not going to matter very much, if they are unsaved and doomed to eternal separation from God.

Here is an excerpt of an article on this topic:

Justification speaks of a legal declaration that gives one a right standing before God. It is a one time event. It involves an imputed righteousness of Christ in which we, although we are sinners, are pronounced "not guilty" of sin as in a court of law. We are cleared of any charges against us. Christ's sacrifice means he was punished in our place, satisfying the demands of the law, and God's justice upon sin.

http://www.letusreason.org/occ1.htm

[Deborah K]

No worries.... Right after I posted I noticed that you added on to your previous post.



Yes, we are saved before we get water baptized. It's something we do, to show the world that we have a new life in Christ!

Btw, I posted this on another thread, but I don't think you were posting on that thread, so if you want to see my water baptism, here is a video. (it happens near the beginning, so you don't watch the whole thing if you don't want to, of course)

Thank you for sharing that, Lily. You are a beautiful girl. You resemble Sandra Bullock.

You know, it pains me to see us Christians fighting amongst ourselves. We all know that we're never going to agree on everything, so I guess we do this to hone our debating skills. But, in the process, I think we lose ourselves, when we get nasty with each other.

I just want to learn and share. I wrote a thread on Bible reading and study and it is largely being ignored, which makes me kind of sad, because I would like to know what you theologian types get out of the various books and chapters. I would love to see your personal interpretations, and even the writings of other theologians and the Church Fathers (TER)! I even want constructive criticism, because I'm sure my take, as is written in the thread, probably offends someone. Most of all, I just want to learn everything I can. And, I think it might help clear some things up for agnostics and atheists. Right now they don't have a very good impression of us, and if we're going to be witnesses for Christ, and his seasoning here on earth, we need to change that.

[Miss Annie]

Thank you for sharing that, Lily. You are a beautiful girl. You resemble Sandra Bullock.

You know, it pains me to see we Christians fighting amongst ourselves. We all know that we're never going to agree on everything, so I guess we do this to hone our debating skills. But, in the process, I think we lose ourselves, when we get nasty with each other.

I just want to learn and share. I wrote a thread on Bible reading and study and it is largely being ignored, which makes me kind of sad, because I would like to know what you theologian types get out of the various books and chapters. I would love to see your personal interpretations, and even the writings of other theologians and the Church Fathers (TER)! I even want constructive criticism, because I'm sure my take, as is written in the thread, probably offends someone. Most of all, I just want to learn everything I can. And, I think it might help clear some things up for agnostics and atheists. Right now they don't have a very good impression of us, and if we're going to be witnesses of Christ, and his seasoning here on earth, we need to change that.

I agree Deb. Nuff said. I am more accustomed to doing topical studies ( I will blame that on the ADD, LOL ), but I will make more of an effort to be involved in your bible study thread - in a good way. Thank you.

[lilymc]

Thank you for sharing that, Lily. You are a beautiful girl. You resemble Sandra Bullock.

You know, it pains me to see we Christians fighting amongst ourselves. We all know that we're never going to agree on everything, so I guess we do this to hone our debating skills. But, in the process, I think we lose ourselves, when we get nasty with each other.

I just want to learn and share. I wrote a thread on Bible reading and study and it is largely being ignored, which makes me kind of sad, because I would like to know what you theologian types get out of the various books and chapters. I would love to see your personal interpretations, and even the writings of other theologians and the Church Fathers (TER)! I even want constructive criticism, because I'm sure my take, as is written in the thread, probably offends someone. Most of all, I just want to learn everything I can. And, I think it might help clear some things up for agnostics and atheists. Right now they don't have a very good impression of us, and if we're going to be witnesses of Christ, and his seasoning here on earth, we need to change that.

Thanks so much! Heh, yeah a couple people have told me before I look like Sandra Bullock. Maybe sometimes, I guess.

And actually, I agree with what you said about Christians fighting with each other. I don't like that either. But it happens because a few people here have a profoundly different view of salvation and the Gospel.

I do have to say.... I admire your attitude. I can see that you genuinely want to learn. And I believe that you (like many of us here) want the truth.

I want to learn too, and I want only the truth. I am always reading and studying and trying to learn.... and I have a long way to go. Interestingly, being in these debates over the last few weeks has helped to clarify some things that I believed (but hadn't given a lot of thought to before) and I've gotten some new revelations, so that is awesome and huge blessing.

But I agree that it's sad that the nonbelievers here are seeing the bickering, and ugliness on some threads. It pains me too, because we are supposed to be LIGHTS in this world and salt of the earth. Not hard-hearted or other negative things like that.

I hope that the thread you posted gets revived.

I really need to spend less time on these forums, because I have SO much I need to do IRL, but if the thread gets going again, I'll try to add my two cents to it.

Thanks again!

[navy-vet]

To be clear, my reference to "the sword of truth" was meant to imply that the truth was being revealed by slashing through the misnomers and "not-so's" and not implying any act of violence....like say the "Sword of Justice" might. It was a simple metaphor.

[Kevin007]

So, a person can't be saved until they are baptized? I mean, it sounds to me like the same faith needed to be baptized is the same faith needed to be saved. It just seems to me that they are one and the same.

Edit: Sorry, I missed the first part, where you state that being saved comes first. I'm still not convinced that both are needed. If you believe that Jesus is God's son, and that he died for your sins, when you get baptized, then you're essentially saved.

there are 2 baptisms for a Believer. 1. The moment they choose Christ. The Holy Spirit indwells them for the first time. 2. The second baptism is a water baptism- outward sign of an inward change. It is a step of obedience to God. It shows MEN you are a new creature in Christ.

[Terry1]

When you say that, you are trying to make justification and sanctification the same thing.

While they DO go together, they are not the same thing. Justification has to happen, and it has to happen first, or else there will be no true sanctification.

Spiritual growth and maturity take time, yes. Because sometimes people need to go through experiences to learn, grow, mature.... those things don't happen overnight.

However, justification is a one time event. And that HAS TO HAPPEN, or else a person is not saved.... and any "works" they do are not going to matter very much, if they are unsaved and doomed to eternal separation from God.

Here is an excerpt of an article on this topic:

Justification speaks of a legal declaration that gives one a right standing before God. It is a one time event. It involves an imputed righteousness of Christ in which we, although we are sinners, are pronounced "not guilty" of sin as in a court of law. We are cleared of any charges against us. Christ's sacrifice means he was punished in our place, satisfying the demands of the law, and God's justice upon sin.

http://www.letusreason.org/occ1.htm

It's impossible that justification is only a "one-time" event because justification apart from freedom is not justice. There is no love apart from freedom-- coercion and slavery are characteristics that are incompatible with a perfect love. There are assurances in Scripture that God will hold close to himself those who are of his fold, and the Christian can rest confidently in this fact. But, we are just as free to reject God and his love as we are to embrace him.

The word tells you that you are justified by faith, faith is contingent upon remaining and abiding in Christ of our own free will. If this were not true, then it wouldn't be possible for faith to die. Faith must be alive in a believer before it can die. One must be within the grace of God before they can fall from it. The only way a believers faith can die and they fall from grace is by their own free will and choice to abandon God.

OSAS does not follow biblical truth that people can and do walk away from Christ and lose their salvation in this life.

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/how-are-we-saved

[Christian Liberty]

Sola Fide would disagree with you. But he's not here to defend his position.

Sola_Fide is at least sort of right.

[jmdrake]

Lilly, Terry, are either of you going to address this? And times you are arguing real differences and at other times you are putting forward arguments that are basically saying the same thing. Nobody will be saved by their own works. But nobody will be saved without a faith that works. God counts the works that you would want to do, good or bad, as if you had done them. God leads you to both want to do good works and to ultimately do good works. Both of you have essentially said all of that at various points in this and other threads. But you're both too focused on your differences to see that. I ultimately disagree with both OSAS and EO doctrine but not for the reasons that you two think you're arguing with each other over.

Okay. I honestly don't see a difference between what you two are saying in these two posts. Yes I know other posts are wildly divergent. But these two are quite similar. Here's the key to all of this. God knows what we would do if we could. That's why wanting to kill someone is the same as killing her/him in God's eyes and wanting to sleep with someone is the same as sleeping with him/her in God's eyes. Conversely wanting to live a life pleasing to God is the same as living a life pleasing to God in God's eyes. With "alive" faith there is a heart change. God works in us to will and to do His good pleasure. The will to do it comes first. Given enough time the "do" will come as well naturally. If you try to fake it and just say "I have faith" God sees through that. That is like the son who said "I'll go work in the harvest" but didn't. Then there was the son that said "I won't work in the harvest" but repented and did. If we're "working" to be saved or "professing faith" to be saved we aren't. Salvation comes from a loving trusting relationship with Jesus.

[Terry1]

Lilly, Terry, are either of you going to address this? And times you are arguing real differences and at other times you are putting forward arguments that are basically saying the same thing. Nobody will be saved by their own works.

What that should say jmd, is that "nobody's saved by "dead works of the law". There's a difference between *our good works* and those *dead works*. That is what the confusion is over is the difference between these two very polar opposite set of works. One work represents OT law of Moses, which are called dead works or Paul refers to them as "the law of works" in the NT. The Mosaic Law is what Jesus fulfilled on the cross. The law of Moses represented mans failure to perfectly keep the Ten Commandments of God by ritual and ceremony to obtain righteousness. Those are the works of the law that Paul refers to that we are not to do.

*We are to do those "good works" that without--(James, Paul, John, Hebrews and Revelation in the NT) teach us that faith is dead and can not justify anyone. So we are taught to do these good works according to our calling in Christ and commanded by our Lord to do them in the two greatest commandments in the word of God. This is how and the only way we can maintain and keep our faith without it dying. This is the true Gospel and this is what Lily is confused about because she is subscribing to the OSAS doctrine that is not consistent with the word of God. There's no other way to color this and no way to say it where it will not offend--it's the truth and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

But nobody will be saved without a faith that works. God counts the works that you would want to do, good or bad, as if you had done them. God leads you to both want to do good works and to ultimately do good works. Both of you have essentially said all of that at various points in this and other threads. But you're both too focused on your differences to see that. I ultimately disagree with both OSAS and EO doctrine but not for the reasons that you two think you're arguing with each other over.

What Lily's saying and what I'm saying are polar opposite, although I respect her right to be wrong--it's still wrong and unbiblical. We have the scriptures that tell us that faith is dead without our good works that are done in faith according to the leading of the Holy Spirit. Lily believes that "justification is a one time event" which is what the OSAS doctrine teaches because they believe that they are once saved always saved and that no one can lose their salvation who was truly saved. This is also false because if faith was permanent and a "one time event"--it could not die, while James and the NT absolutely teach us that faith can die--so faith can not be just a one permanent time event. If we do nothing in response to our faith and belief as in our "good works"--our faith will die and salvation can be lost. Revelation also confirms this when speaking to the church of Sardis here: Rev. 3:

1And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. 2Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. 3Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. 4Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. 5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. 6He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

But then if they see that someone has walked away from Christ and abandoned their belief---then they will tell you that "they were never saved to begin with". This is not consistent with the hallmark statement of faith of OSAS though and contradicts itself automatically because they then say that once you confess Christ and are baptized in the Holy Spirit that nothing can cause you to lose that state of salvation.

Lily and I are very far from saying the same thing here jmd. It's nice to make friends and get to know people and it's a very delicate balance to maintain friendship while disagreeing with each other on scripture and the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I try to be as kind and respectful as I can, but I value truth above everything else and I think it's far more important to tell the truth than to pacify someone with a lie simply because you think it might offend their sensibilities.

As long as we can remain civil and respectful in our dialogue with each other--I think that's the best that can be expected and still works towards keeping the peace amongst the brethren. No one likes to be told that they're wrong or that they're believing something other than the true Gospel of Christ. We have the word of God that confirms itself if it's presented rightly. All we truly need is the leading and guiding of the Holy Spirit and God does the rest. We are all sower of seeds. We sow them and some will fall on good ground and some won't--God is in control of that part.

[jmdrake]

Terry, what produces those good works you are talking about? Yourself? Or God through your faith? Faith that doesn't produce good works is not faith. Now, you and Lilly disagree on OSAS. Lilly and I disagree on OSAS. But do you honestly believe that you do your good works of yourself when the Bible teaches that it is God who works in us to both will and to do His good pleasure?

[Terry1]

Terry, what produces those good works you are talking about? Yourself? Or God through your faith? Faith that doesn't produce good works is not faith. Now, you and Lilly disagree on OSAS. Lilly and I disagree on OSAS. But do you honestly believe that you do your good works of yourself when the Bible teaches that it is God who works in us to both will and to do His good pleasure?

By abiding in Christ we're empowered to do the good works that we're called to do, but it's always our choice to either do them or not. We do these good works willingly understanding that we are answering our calling in Christ by doing them which Jesus Himself commanded us to do telling us that only those who abide in Christ who have *saving faith* are those who actually--willingly do the will of God. Jesus told us this is the only way we can possibly glorify the Father in heaven and faith is no faith at all and dead without the evidence that reveals that same faith which are our good works.

Good works don't just magically happen--we will them to happen--we willingly do them or not. Our eternal destinies have been designed by God in such a way that He's given us total liberty and freedom to choose for ourselves whom and what we will follow and believe in. God will not force us to love Him--He allows us that freedom to seek and find His truth in the Gospel of Jesus Christ that reveals just how much He loves us. Only those who seek in the Spirit of the Lord will truly find Him.

Faith is ours to maintain and keep--and justification by faith is not a one time event--it is ongoing throughout our lives according to what we choose to believe in and follow by either doing the good works of faith or believing a lie that claims that faith keeps and maintains itself--which is impossible.

Remaining within the state of salvation in this life is conditional upon us remaining and maintaining our faith in God through these good works and to the very end of it. No one is once saved always saved--faith does not maintain itself and is not a "one time event". Faith can only justify if it's living and faith can only live through our obedience and free will to continually choose Christ to the very end of our lives by doing the good works we have been spiritually called to do in Christ.

[jmdrake]

By abiding in Christ we're empowered to do the good works that we're called to do, but it's always our choice to either do them or not. We do these good works willingly understanding that we are answering our calling in Christ by doing them which Jesus Himself commanded us to do telling us that only those who abide in Christ who have *saving faith* are those who actually--willingly do the will of God. Jesus told us this is the only way we can possibly glorify the Father in heaven and faith is no faith at all and dead without the evidence that reveals that same faith which are our good works.

I agree. But without the power of God we can't even will to do good works. Phillipians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Good works don't just magically happen--we will them to happen--we willingly do them or not. Our eternal destinies have been designed by God in such a way that He's given us total liberty and freedom to choose for ourselves whom and what we will follow and believe in. God will not force us to love Him--He allows us that freedom to seek and find His truth in the Gospel of Jesus Christ that reveals just how much He loves us. Only those who seek in the Spirit of the Lord will truly find Him.

Except we don't "will them to happen". God works in us to "will them to happen". Our willing is being willing to turn our will over to God's will. Yes we still have freedom. We can choose to take our will back. There are people who have the bumper sticker that says "God is my co-pilot". He wants to be your pilot.

Faith is ours to maintain and keep--and justification by faith is not a one time event--it is ongoing throughout our lives according to what we choose to believe in and follow by either doing the good works of faith or believing a lie that claims that faith keeps and maintains itself--which is impossible.

I agree. I know Lilly does not. But in the specific quote that I showed comparing you r words to hers she didn't address OSAS although you did. My point is that some of this disagreement is semantic. (That is unless you really don't take Phil 2:13 at face value.)

Remaining within the state of salvation in this life is conditional upon us remaining and maintaining our faith in God through these good works and to the very end of it. No one is once saved always saved--faith does not maintain itself and is not a "one time event". Faith can only justify if it's living and faith can only live through our obedience and free will to continually choose Christ to the very end of our lives by doing the good works we have been spiritually called to do in Christ.

Hmmmm....I disagree. We maintain our faith by abiding in Jesus, not through good works. That is unless you are talking about the good work of belief.

John 6:28, 29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

[Terry1]

I agree. But without the power of God we can't even will to do good works. Phillipians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Gods grace is His power--the same power that draws people to Christ, but God doesn't make our choices for us. So by you stating that "we can't even will to do good works" would be incorrect in such a case because you're implying that our free will is redundant and has no power on it's own. We are never left without a choice or our own free will to choose Christ or abandon Him.

God has created all of His sons, both angels and mankind with perfect freedom and liberty eternally. His grace is His power that draws people to Him, but they are still left with a choice to either *willingly serve Him or to walk away.

Except we don't "will them to happen". God works in us to "will them to happen". Our willing is being willing to turn our will over to God's will. Yes we still have freedom. We can choose to take our will back. There are people who have the bumper sticker that says "God is my co-pilot". He wants to be your pilot.

What your doing here is annihilating the free will by stating that God is choosing for us. Perfect freedom means just that. Yes, God wants to be our pilot, but only can be if we allow Him to be. We have perfect freedom at any point and time to say--*okay God scoot over, I'll take the wheel now* and many do.

In the word of God--He begs and pleads with those who've gone astray to return to Him. God said--"return unto Me and I will return unto you".

Jeremiah 4:
1 If thou wilt return, O Israel, saith the LORD, return unto me: and if thou wilt put away thine abominations out of my sight, then shalt thou not remove.

Zachariah 1:
3Therefore say thou unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Turn ye unto me, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will turn unto you, saith the LORD of hosts.

Malachi 3: 7Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?



As reference above--God could have at any point forced them to return to Him, but He didn't. God will not touch our perfect freedom because it's written as part of His decree and He changes not

I agree. I know Lilly does not. But in the specific quote that I showed comparing you r words to hers she didn't address OSAS although you did. My point is that some of this disagreement is semantic. (That is unless you really don't take Phil 2:13 at face value.)

On the face of it to some might seem like semantics, but it's not. Many Protestant doctrines confuse "the works of the law" with "good works". They see them all as one and the same instead of how they are meant to be understood properly. This is in part due to some of these ministries and churches practicing dispensationalism. They do not believe that the OT is relevant in light of what the NT teaches, so they dispense with it entirely. When in reality--the key to understanding what the NT is talking about--it's paramount that they understand first what the OT was about and taught. This is why there is so much confusion over the word "works". They can not distinguish between the two and don't want to by then claiming that all works are the same. What they don't understand is that without good works--faith can not live and dead faith can not justify.

There are many churches and denominations that do understand and do teach this properly. Unfortunately--there's also just as many that don't understand or teach the Gospel properly.

Hmmmm....I disagree. We maintain our faith by abiding in Jesus, not through good works. That is unless you are talking about the good work of belief.

If you're abiding in Jesus--then the works that you're doing are good works, but Jesus isn't doing them for you--you are willingly doing them understanding this is what you've been called to do and this is how you maintain your faith is by willingly obeying the spirit of the Lord by doing the good works He's telling you to do, but you are the one choosing to do them. Jesus isn't forcing you to make that choice-- A "good work" is only good if it's done willingly by the believer in obedience to the spirit of the Lord. That's the entire point of them being called "good works" instead of "dead works of the Law".

John 6:28, 29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Yes and by believing God--we do everything else His word teaches us to do and be, which are our good works.

Matthew 5: 14Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. 15Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. 16Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.



James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[Terry1]

When you love, give, forgive, have mercy, compassion, comfort another, have charity or simply a shoulder or an ear to listen, or when you witness the love of Christ and confess Him to another--these are all good works done in faith. This is how your faith lives is by you acting upon it doing the work and will of God He's called us to do.

Sacrifice is the essence of love. Jesus was our ultimate example of this. Only a willing sacrifice can be called "saving faith". These are the things that we willingly choose to do in obedience to the spirit of the Lord. Belief is nothing without these good works to give evidence of our faith as Jesus said in Matthew 5:14. They are the only way to glorify the Father in heaven.

We are physical beings. Every single thing we think, say or do while abiding in Christ is our choice to willingly sacrifice a part of ourselves to serve the Lord. This is saving faith--this is living faith and only this kind of faith can justify anyone. Without doing these good works--there is no faith--it dies and then grace is of no effect and there is no evidence of who we are in Christ--hence salvation is lost when faith dies.

[lilymc]

Okay. I honestly don't see a difference between what you two are saying in these two posts. Yes I know other posts are wildly divergent. But these two are quite similar. Here's the key to all of this. God knows what we would do if we could. That's why wanting to kill someone is the same as killing her/him in God's eyes and wanting to sleep with someone is the same as sleeping with him/her in God's eyes. Conversely wanting to live a life pleasing to God is the same as living a life pleasing to God in God's eyes. With "alive" faith there is a heart change. God works in us to will and to do His good pleasure. The will to do it comes first. Given enough time the "do" will come as well naturally. If you try to fake it and just say "I have faith" God sees through that. That is like the son who said "I'll go work in the harvest" but didn't. Then there was the son that said "I won't work in the harvest" but repented and did. If we're "working" to be saved or "professing faith" to be saved we aren't. Salvation comes from a loving trusting relationship with Jesus.

Hey JM. Sorry for not replying to that post til now.

I read those 2 quotes you posted, and no, Terry and I are not saying the same thing at all... not even close. So I'm not sure which parts you thought were saying the same thing.

Terry has her own version of the Gospel....which I think is not only wrong, but sad, dismal, anthropocentric, legalistic, and about as far away from the true Gospel of Grace as one can get.

She insists that it's the New Covenant, but she is playing word games. For example, calling it the "law of faith" to make it sound like it's about faith, but it's not about faith at all, it's about works. Or throwing in other spiritual-sounding words, to make it sound like it's about God, but it's not...it's all about man's works, man's performance, man's efforts.

Yes, Terry, we've heard your response to that a million times... so you don't have to keep repeating yourself. I know your theory on the covenants, and that "works" to you only means the Mosaic covenant.

Once again, you are playing word games while ignoring the whole point... ignoring the big huge elephant in the room.

It's the Old Covenant mindset all over again.

No matter what name you give it, or what phrases you attach to it ("led by the Spirit") it still boils down to the same thing..... the idea that we are saved by our works, our law-keeping, our performance.

In fact, Jesus' death on the cross was entirely pointless, with your version of the Gospel (something I stated in the video, which you didn't bother to watch.)

Did Jesus die for the remission of your sins, Terry, yes or no?

If He didn't die to pay the price for your sins....or for anyone's sins (since we're still under condemnation, according to your sad, legalistic version of the Gospel... something that blatantly contradicts Romans 8:1 and about 30,000 other scriptures) then why did Jesus have to die, Terry?

You have a works-based, Old Covenant mindset.

I don't want to be too hard on you, but your version of the Gospel is like a heavy dark cloud of gloom and doom.

The very word Gospel means GOOD news!

But what is so good about your version of the Gospel? Absolutely nothing.

• Jesus did not pay the full debt for you, once and for all, with your version of the Gospel. Because you think you can pay it yourself.
  
  
• You cannot be truly saved in this life, with your version of the Gospel. The word 'saved' becomes meaningless.
  
  
• There is no Grace with your version of the Gospel... just works, law-keeping, and religion.
  
  
• There is no peace with your version of the Gospel.... because it hinges on fallible men, not infallible God.
  
  
• There is no assurance with your version of the Gospel. Yet another thing that blatantly contradicts scripture.
  
  
• There is no joy with your version of the Gospel. What is so joyful about "You have to constantly strive to measure up or be thrown in hell."
  
  
• There is no new life with your version of the Gospel. As I said in the video, trying to get saved through our works is like spraying perfume on a corpse.

It's just religion. And if you would've watched the video, you would've seen that one of the points was that just about every false religion in the world, and every cult has at least one thing in common.... they are works-based.

The one thing that makes Christianity unique is that it's about God's GRACE.

Your version of the Gospel took the one thing that makes Christianity unique, and tossed it out.

That is sad. Very sad.

[Kevin007]

AMEN Lily.

[lilymc]

AMEN Lily.

I was going to say something else about the works mindset, but it truly saddens me that some people can miss the point in such a colossal way.... so, I don't want to stay on that topic.

I prefer to think about the GOOD news!

So let's lift this thread up, and give thanks to GOD!

Speaking of joy and praise, I'll start with the song Happy Day.

It's from an old movie that I'm sure most here have seen.... but if you haven't seen this in a while, watch this clip.

The first half of the song looks like the gloomy works Gospel... then the second half looks more like the joyful, GOOD NEWS of the Gospel of Grace! So you have to stick it out and watch the whole thing... The best part isn't until 2:54, near the end.

[heavenlyboy34]

Hey JM. Sorry for not replying to that post til now.

I read those 2 quotes you posted, and no, Terry and I are not saying the same thing at all... not even close. So I'm not sure which parts you thought were saying the same thing.

Terry has her own version of the Gospel....which I think is not only wrong, but sad, dismal, anthropocentric, legalistic, and about as far away from the true Gospel of Grace as one can get.

She insists that it's the New Covenant, but she is playing word games. For example, calling it the "law of faith" to make it sound like it's about faith, but it's not about faith at all, it's about works. Or throwing in other spiritual-sounding words, to make it sound like it's about God, but it's not...it's all about man's works, man's performance, man's efforts.

Yes, Terry, we've heard your response to that a million times... so you don't have to keep repeating yourself. I know your theory on the covenants, and that "works" to you only means the Mosaic covenant.

Once again, you are playing word games while ignoring the whole point... ignoring the big huge elephant in the room.

It's the Old Covenant mindset all over again.

No matter what name you give it, or what phrases you attach to it ("led by the Spirit") it still boils down to the same thing..... the idea that we are saved by our works, our law-keeping, our performance.

In fact, Jesus' death on the cross was entirely pointless, with your version of the Gospel (something I stated in the video, which you didn't bother to watch.)

Did Jesus die for the remission of your sins, Terry, yes or no?

If He didn't die to pay the price for your sins....or for anyone's sins (since we're still under condemnation, according to your sad, legalistic version of the Gospel... something that blatantly contradicts Romans 8:1 and about 30,000 other scriptures) then why did Jesus have to die, Terry?

You have a works-based, Old Covenant mindset.

I don't want to be too hard on you, but your version of the Gospel is like a heavy dark cloud of gloom and doom.

The very word Gospel means GOOD news!

But what is so good about your version of the Gospel? Absolutely nothing.

• Jesus did not pay the full debt for you, once and for all, with your version of the Gospel. Because you think you can pay it yourself.
• You cannot be truly saved in this life, with your version of the Gospel. The word 'saved' becomes meaningless.
• There is no Grace with your version of the Gospel... just works, law-keeping, and religion.
• There is no peace with your version of the Gospel.... because it hinges on fallible men, not infallible God.
• There is no assurance with your version of the Gospel. Yet another thing that blatantly contradicts scripture.
• There is no joy with your version of the Gospel. What is so joyful about "You have to constantly strive to measure up or be thrown in hell."
• There is no new life with your version of the Gospel. As I said in the video, trying to get saved through our works is like spraying perfume on a corpse.

It's just religion. And if you would've watched the video, you would've seen that one of the points was that just about every false religion in the world, and every cult has at least one thing in common.... they are works-based.

The one thing that makes Christianity unique is that it's about God's GRACE.

Your version of the Gospel took the one thing that makes Christianity unique, and tossed it out.

That is sad. Very sad.

I see everything Terry said went completely over your head. Plz re-read it because nothing you say that she said is actually there. Whether you agree with her or not, quit being intellectually dishonest.

[lilymc]

I see everything Terry said went completely over your head. Plz re-read it because nothing you say that she said is actually there. Whether you agree with her or not, quit being intellectually dishonest.

I've heard her theory, over and over, on numerous threads. We all have. These threads have been going on for many weeks.

I posted some general statements, not necessarily about what she just posted.

And btw, I took the time to make that video (that was the purpose of this thread) and she didn't even bother to watch it. That to me speaks volumes.

So, I'm done (at least for now) with this arguing, because it clearly is going nowhere, at least with Terry.

Ok, back to praising God. Speaking of Grace..... and chains being gone. This song is appropriate.

[Kevin007]

If you did not watch the video, that Lily took great time and prayer to make- you should NOT EVEN BE ALLOWED to comment in this thread. Have the basic courtesy to at least watch it. How sad. How ignorant. Whether you agree or not is not the point. MAYBE, JUST MAYBE God will show you something NEW.

[Kevin007]

230 plus replies in and not one constructive reply ON HER VIDEO. Can we get an honest answer please of who has watched it so far!? Please..... I have, Annie, who else?

[lilymc]

230 plus replies in and not one constructive reply ON HER VIDEO. Can we get an honest answer please of who has watched it so far!? Please..... I have, Annie, who else?

Other than RJB, I don't think any of the EO or works salvation people mentioned they watched it or were planning to.

Anyway, thanks Kevin. I am curious about who actually watched it.

[Kevin007]

Other than RJB, I don't think any of the EO or works salvation people mentioned they watched it or were planning to.

Anyway, thanks Kevin. I am curious about who actually watched it.

I bet erowe watched it It's unabashedly ignorant and prideful to try to diss it w/o even watching it.

[lilymc]

It's unabashedly ignorant and prideful to try to diss it w/o even watching it.

This is what comes to mind for me...

[Natural Citizen]

Yes... I agree that many people in the world (agnostics, people who say they are "spiritual but not religious", etc) believe that their own actions and doing good deeds is all that matters.

Placeholder

I'd debate what are a few separate (and unfair) assumptions here in this single line alone.

These assumptions beg several questions. In a loaded way too. Will think on it. One could almost scribble up a short book to make the case.

[Terry1]

I've heard her theory, over and over, on numerous threads. We all have. These threads have been going on for many weeks.

I posted some general statements, not necessarily about what she just posted.

And btw, I took the time to make that video (that was the purpose of this thread) and she didn't even bother to watch it. That to me speaks volumes.

So, I'm done (at least for now) with this arguing, because it clearly is going nowhere, at least with Terry.

Ok, back to praising God. Speaking of Grace..... and chains being gone. This song is appropriate.

Dear Lily, it disturbs me that we've come to this over our disagreement in scripture. I understand your frustration. The reason I didn't watch your video is because I'm already aware of what you believe and practice. I appreciate the time you took to make that video, God bless you for that.

The entire premise for your belief is biblically incorrect because you're basing your belief upon the misunderstanding of scripture. The scriptures that you use to refute good works are actually the scriptures meant to refute "the works of the law" or the "Mosaic Law". This is why your belief is in contradiction to itself.

This is not just a "Catholic belief" or an "EO belief" because many protestant churches teach this properly as well. This is an OSAS belief that you're subscribing to.

Spending time watching your video would be to me--time wasted when I could be witnessing to you what the scriptures are actually saying instead of what you believe they are saying.

Lily, we all see through the glass darkly at some level and from one degree to another, but some are actually closer to the mark because they've devoted time and prayer to rightly dividing the word. I wasn't aware of certain things that were revealed to me recently, but my mind was never closed to hearing what others have to say. Things that used to be a blur became clear because I have sought them out in prayer. I want to know the truth--don't you?

Lily--you remind me of myself many years ago. Decades ago I would have never thought that I'd come to understand and believe what I do today and whom. The very things I fought and disbelieved are those very things and people God has used to reveal to me how wrong I used to be. And my journey's not over yet. I'm not finished in this life learning and growing until the day I die--none of us are.

With this, I pray that you keep an open mind and heart and try to hear what's being said. While it's not that I don't believe your saved or that you're living within the will of God, but understanding what Gods word is saying clearly enhances our spiritual relationship with Him and others as well. We grow in our faith as we listen, learn, study and pray for those revelations of truth that take us from strength to strength and from one level of faith to yet another level of faith so God can use you more effectively to win souls for Christ.

Peace dear sister--it was never my intention to be condescending, but to share what I believe the Lord has given me. It's up to you to do with it as you please.

[Terry1]

If you did not watch the video, that Lily took great time and prayer to make- you should NOT EVEN BE ALLOWED to comment in this thread. Have the basic courtesy to at least watch it. How sad. How ignorant. Whether you agree or not is not the point. MAYBE, JUST MAYBE God will show you something NEW.

As I said Kevin, while I appreciate the time and effort Lily put into her video, the entire video is based upon a false premise being that Lily is using scripture to refute "good works" that are meant to refute "the works of the law"/the Mosaic law.

What that video is actually promoting is the contradiction of scripture by asserting that good works are not necessary for our salvation, when Paul, James, Hebrews, Rev. and the entire NT are telling us that without these good works our faith is dead. Dead faith can not justify you or anyone. Good works are the essential element of faith that justifies us, of which without--you are told you have no faith at all--it dies.

How can our justification be a permanent "one time event", when you are told that faith can die without good works? That is a blatant contradiction of scripture and is why watching that video is a waste of time that could better be spent witnessing the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

This is the "works of the law" that Paul refers to that Lily is confusing with "good works".

Acts 13:39

And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.


This is the law of faith and good works that Paul teaches us that we are to do.

Romans 3:27

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.


1 Thessalonians 1:3

Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

2 Thessalonians 1:11

Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

James 2:17

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.