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Thread: City of Houston demands pastors turn over sermons

  1. #1

    City of Houston demands pastors turn over sermons

    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/...-over-sermons/

    The city of Houston has issued subpoenas demanding a group of pastors turn over any sermons dealing with homosexuality, gender identity or Annise Parker, the city’s first openly lesbian mayor. And those ministers who fail to comply could be held in contempt of court.

    “The city’s subpoena of sermons and other pastoral communications is both needless and unprecedented,” Alliance Defending Freedom attorney Christina Holcomb said in a statement. “The city council and its attorneys are engaging in an inquisition designed to stifle any critique of its actions.”


    ADF, a nationally-known law firm specializing in religious liberty cases, is representing five Houston pastors. They filed a motion in Harris County court to stop the subpoenas arguing they are “overbroad, unduly burdensome, harassing, and vexatious.”

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    “Political and social commentary is not a crime,” Holcomb said. “It is protected by the First Amendment.”

    The subpoenas are just the latest twist in an ongoing saga over the Houston’s new non-discrimination ordinance. The law, among other things, would allow men to use the ladies room and vice versa. The city council approved the law in June.

    The Houston Chronicle reported opponents of the ordinance launched a petition drive that generated more than 50,000 signatures – far more than the 17,269 needed to put a referendum on the ballot.

    However, the city threw out the petition in August over alleged irregularities.

    After opponents of the bathroom bill filed a lawsuit the city’s attorneys responded by issuing the subpoenas against the pastors.

    The pastors were not part of the lawsuit. However, they were part of a coalition of some 400 Houston-area churches that opposed the ordinance. The churches represent a number of faith groups – from Southern Baptist to non-denominational.

    “City council members are supposed to be public servants, not ‘Big Brother’ overlords who will tolerate no dissent or challenge,” said ADF attorney Erik Stanley. “This is designed to intimidate pastors.”

    Mayor Parker will not explain why she wants to inspect the sermons. I contacted City Hall for a comment and received a terse reply from the mayor’s director of communications.

    “We don’t comment on litigation,” said Janice Evans.

    However, ADF attorney Stanley suspects the mayor wants to publicly shame the ministers. He said he anticipates they will hold up their sermons for public scrutiny. In other words – the city is rummaging for evidence to “out” the pastors as anti-gay bigots.

    Among those slapped with a subpoena is Steve Riggle, the senior pastor of Grace Community Church. He was ordered to produce all speeches and sermons related to Mayor Annise Parker, homosexuality and gender identity.

    The mega-church pastor was also ordered to hand over “all communications with members of your congregation” regarding the non-discrimination law.

    “This is an attempt to chill pastors from speaking to the cultural issues of the day,” Riggle told me. “The mayor would like to silence our voice. She’s a bully.”

    David Welch, director of the Houston Area Pastor Council, also received a subpoena. He said he will not be intimidated by the mayor.

    “We’re not afraid of this bully,” he said. “We’re not intimidated at all.”

    He accused the city of violating the law with the subpoenas and vowed to stand firm in the faith.

    “We are not going to yield our First Amendment rights,” Welch told me. ‘This is absolutely a complete abuse of authority.”

    Tony Perkins, the head of the Family Research Council, said pastors around the nation should rally around the Houston ministers.

    “The state is breaching the wall of separation between church and state,” Perkins told me. ‘Pastors need to step forward and challenge this across the country. I’d like to see literally thousands of pastors after they read this story begin to challenge government authorities – to dare them to come into their churches and demand their sermons.”

    Perkins called the actions by Houston’s mayor “obscene” and said they “should not be tolerated.”

    “This is a shot across the bow of the church,” he said.

    This is the moment I wrote about in my book, “God Less America.” I predicted that the government would one day try to silence American pastors. I warned that under the guise of “tolerance and diversity” elected officials would attempt to deconstruct religious liberty.

    Sadly, that day arrived sooner than even I expected.

    Tony Perkins is absolutely right. Now is the time for pastors and people of faith to take a stand. We must rise up and reject this despicable strong-arm attack on religious liberty. We cannot allow ministers to be intimidated by government thugs.

    The pastors I spoke to tell me they will not comply with the subpoena – putting them at risk for a “fine or confinement, or both.”

    Heaven forbid that should happen. But if it does, Christians across America should be willing to descend en masse upon Houston and join these brave men of God behind bars.

    Pastor Welch compared the culture war skirmish to the 1836 Battle of San Jacinto, fought in present-day Harris County, Texas. It was a decisive battle of the Texas Revolution.

    “This is the San Jacinto moment for traditional family,” Welch told me. “This is the place where we stop the LGBT assault on the freedom to practice our faith.”

    We can no longer remain silent. We must stand together - because one day – the government might come for your pastor.



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  3. #2
    Is this real life?

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    Is this real life?
    It's just the beginning of what you'll see in the new "tolerant America."

  5. #4
    Yes it's real. Our mayor who never flaunted her lesbianism when she was city controller, is now trying to shove her agenda down everyone's throat for her future political aspirations. She has done a couple of good things..one is opening a dialog about decriminalizing weed and another is not jailing first time PI cases but she most definitely wants to use her office as a bully pulpit for other issues.
    Last edited by Carlybee; 10-14-2014 at 05:47 PM.

  6. #5
    Are these the same pastors who call for police to arrest people for smoking plants?

    Hopefully they'll realize that the hammer of the "Just-Us" department can be used to whack them just as readily as it can be used to whack others...

    I don't support government doing this to the pastors any more than I support them doing it to others.....

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Carlybee View Post
    Yes it's real. Our mayor who never flaunted her lesbianism when she was city controller, is now trying to shove her agenda down everyone's throat for her future political aspirations. She has done a couple of good things..one is opening a dialog about decriminalizing weed and another is not jailing first time PI cases but she most definitely wants to use her office as a bully pulpit for other issues.
    Lol, so she wants to allow people to smoke marijuana but believes that Christians should be thrown in prison. I'm pretty sure that's not a net positive overall.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Are these the same pastors who call for police to arrest people for smoking plants?

    Hopefully they'll realize that the hammer of the "Just-Us" department can be used to whack them just as readily as it can be used to whack others...

    I don't support government doing this to the pastors any more than I support them doing it to others.....
    I'm not in favor of marijuana prohibition, but I still don't really think there's any comparison between that and throwing people in prison simply for practicing their faith. Still, your point about how pastors should be more consistent defenders of liberty is valid.

  9. #8
    Anti-discrimination? These pastors are voicing their opposition to homosexuality and the like, not barring them from attending. That's not discrimination by any definition. If I were to say that I abhor smoking does that mean that I'm discriminating against smokers? No. In their own churches they are allowed to say whatever they want; they aren't exactly carrying out hate crimes and should not be punished as though they are.

    This reeks of Thought Police.



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  11. #9
    This is why churches should not take tax-exempt status - so when the gubmint comes knocking they can tell them to piss off!
    Few men have virtue enough to withstand the highest bidder. ~GEORGE WASHINGTON, letter, Aug. 17, 1779

    Quit yer b*tching and whining and GET INVOLVED!!

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by mosquitobite View Post
    This is why churches should not take tax-exempt status - so when the gubmint comes knocking they can tell them to piss off!
    I don't think it would matter. These pastors are being harassed because they supposedly violated an anti discrimination statute. Even if they didn't take the tax exempt status, they would just be forced to pay a fine or face prison time for speaking out against homosexuality.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    I don't think it would matter. These pastors are being harassed because they supposedly violated an anti discrimination statute. Even if they didn't take the tax exempt status, they would just be forced to pay a fine or face prison time for speaking out against homosexuality.

    It hasn't gone into effect yet because of the lawsuit. This is just the mayor getting retribution. One of the main reasons for the opposition is the unisex bathrooms.

  14. #12
    I would think they would gladly hand over a copy of their sermon, heck they should publish it on their website?

    I understand the problem with them being "required" to hand it over; but why wouldn't they be happy to willingly produce it? Heck, if I was one of them I'd take the opportunity to turn it into a media event and reap the rewards of donations.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    I would think they would gladly hand over a copy of their sermon, heck they should publish it on their website?

    I understand the problem with them being "required" to hand it over; but why wouldn't they be happy to willingly produce it? Heck, if I was one of them I'd take the opportunity to turn it into a media event and reap the rewards of donations.
    Because the entire point is for the mayor's political operation to trawl through the sermons for quotes that sound bad or can be taken out of context to demagogue opponents to their "equality" ordinance. Giving them what they want would be a PR disaster -- you really expect the big media outlets to publish full uncut sermons and not a few choice excerpts pointed out by the mayor's office?
    “Do you not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?” - Oxenstiern

    Violence will not save us. Let us love one another, for love is from God.

  16. #14
    Lesbian witch runs a town in my State, depressing.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  17. #15
    This is what Congressman John G. Schmitz would have referred to as an "Attack of the Bulldykes"
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  18. #16
    LibForestPaul
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    Lol, so she wants to allow people to smoke marijuana but believes that Christians should be thrown in prison. I'm pretty sure that's not a net positive overall.
    For the uppity Christians I know. Net positive, definitely.



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  20. #17
    So wtf happened to separation of church and state? Can't chisel out in god we trust from the court house wall but then ask for their sermons. Tell em to go fk off. Throw a pastor in jail and watch your political career pull a Toronto type trajectory.

    However, our pastor posts text and a mp3 on the web. Text prior to and audio after.

  21. #18

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  22. #19
    Give up your 501(c)(3.) and tell the Fed Gov to go f*ck themselves. Then, when they come unto you for taxes tell them to go f*ck themselves once more. If every church and every member did this Leviathan would crumble.
    If every church asked their members to reject Leviathan the federal government would crumble tomorrow.
    But, petty tyrants must pay a price to be a petty tyrant.

  23. #20
    What if they don't have a written sermon? (Many preachers don't)
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Give up your 501(c)(3.) and tell the Fed Gov to go f*ck themselves. Then, when they come unto you for taxes tell them to go f*ck themselves once more. If every church and every member did this Leviathan would crumble.
    If every church asked their members to reject Leviathan the federal government would crumble tomorrow.
    But, petty tyrants must pay a price to be a petty tyrant.
    The only possible way to do this is to give them an alternative (ie. one they can believe in) interpretation to "Render unto Caesar'... I'm still not 100% sure how to take that passage honestly. But most Christians are still convinced that it is telling them to pay taxes. And unfortunately, as long as they believe that, there is no hope of convincing them to do otherwise.

  25. #22

    Angry City of Houston demands pastors turn over sermons!!

    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/...-over-sermons/

    he city of Houston has issued subpoenas demanding a group of pastors turn over any sermons dealing with homosexuality, gender identity or Annise Parker, the city’s first openly lesbian mayor. And those ministers who fail to comply could be held in contempt of court.

    “The city’s subpoena of sermons and other pastoral communications is both needless and unprecedented,” Alliance Defending Freedom attorney Christina Holcomb said in a statement. “The city council and its attorneys are engaging in an inquisition designed to stifle any critique of its actions.”

    ADF, a nationally-known law firm specializing in religious liberty cases, is representing five Houston pastors. They filed a motion in Harris County court to stop the subpoenas arguing they are “overbroad, unduly burdensome, harassing, and vexatious.”

    CLICK HERE TO JOIN TODD ON FACEBOOK FOR CONSERVATIVE CONVERSATION!

    “Political and social commentary is not a crime,” Holcomb said. “It is protected by the First Amendment.”

    The subpoenas are just the latest twist in an ongoing saga over the Houston’s new non-discrimination ordinance. The law, among other things, would allow men to use the ladies room and vice versa. The city council approved the law in June.

    The Houston Chronicle reported opponents of the ordinance launched a petition drive that generated more than 50,000 signatures – far more than the 17,269 needed to put a referendum on the ballot.

    However, the city threw out the petition in August over alleged irregularities.

    After opponents of the bathroom bill filed a lawsuit the city’s attorneys responded by issuing the subpoenas against the pastors.

    The pastors were not part of the lawsuit. However, they were part of a coalition of some 400 Houston-area churches that opposed the ordinance. The churches represent a number of faith groups – from Southern Baptist to non-denominational.

    “City council members are supposed to be public servants, not ‘Big Brother’ overlords who will tolerate no dissent or challenge,” said ADF attorney Erik Stanley. “This is designed to intimidate pastors.”

    Mayor Parker will not explain why she wants to inspect the sermons. I contacted City Hall for a comment and received a terse reply from the mayor’s director of communications.

    “We don’t comment on litigation,” said Janice Evans.

    However, ADF attorney Stanley suspects the mayor wants to publicly shame the ministers. He said he anticipates they will hold up their sermons for public scrutiny. In other words – the city is rummaging for evidence to “out” the pastors as anti-gay bigots.

    Among those slapped with a subpoena is Steve Riggle, the senior pastor of Grace Community Church. He was ordered to produce all speeches and sermons related to Mayor Annise Parker, homosexuality and gender identity.

    The mega-church pastor was also ordered to hand over “all communications with members of your congregation” regarding the non-discrimination law.

    “This is an attempt to chill pastors from speaking to the cultural issues of the day,” Riggle told me. “The mayor would like to silence our voice. She’s a bully.”

    David Welch, director of the Houston Area Pastor Council, also received a subpoena. He said he will not be intimidated by the mayor.

    “We’re not afraid of this bully,” he said. “We’re not intimidated at all.”

    He accused the city of violating the law with the subpoenas and vowed to stand firm in the faith.

    “We are not going to yield our First Amendment rights,” Welch told me. ‘This is absolutely a complete abuse of authority.”

    Tony Perkins, the head of the Family Research Council, said pastors around the nation should rally around the Houston ministers.

    “The state is breaching the wall of separation between church and state,” Perkins told me. ‘Pastors need to step forward and challenge this across the country. I’d like to see literally thousands of pastors after they read this story begin to challenge government authorities – to dare them to come into their churches and demand their sermons.”

    Perkins called the actions by Houston’s mayor “obscene” and said they “should not be tolerated.”

    “This is a shot across the bow of the church,” he said.

    This is the moment I wrote about in my book, “God Less America.” I predicted that the government would one day try to silence American pastors. I warned that under the guise of “tolerance and diversity” elected officials would attempt to deconstruct religious liberty.

    Sadly, that day arrived sooner than even I expected.

    Tony Perkins is absolutely right. Now is the time for pastors and people of faith to take a stand. We must rise up and reject this despicable strong-arm attack on religious liberty. We cannot allow ministers to be intimidated by government thugs.

    The pastors I spoke to tell me they will not comply with the subpoena – putting them at risk for a “fine or confinement, or both.”

    Heaven forbid that should happen. But if it does, Christians across America should be willing to descend en masse upon Houston and join these brave men of God behind bars.

    Pastor Welch compared the culture war skirmish to the 1836 Battle of San Jacinto, fought in present-day Harris County, Texas. It was a decisive battle of the Texas Revolution.

    “This is the San Jacinto moment for traditional family,” Welch told me. “This is the place where we stop the LGBT assault on the freedom to practice our faith.”

    We can no longer remain silent. We must stand together - because one day – the government might come for your pastor.
    "Governor, if I had foreseen the use those people designed to make of their victory,
    there would have been no surrender at Appomattox Courthouse; no sir, not by me.
    Had I foreseen these results of subjugation, I would have preferred to die at Appomattox
    with my brave men, my sword in my right hand."
    - Robert E. Lee to Governor Fletcher S. Stockdale (D-Texas), 1870

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    The only possible way to do this is to give them an alternative (ie. one they can believe in) interpretation to "Render unto Caesar'... I'm still not 100% sure how to take that passage honestly. But most Christians are still convinced that it is telling them to pay taxes. And unfortunately, as long as they believe that, there is no hope of convincing them to do otherwise.
    If the fed.gov is telling you what you may or may not preach then rendering unto Caesar becomes something totally different from even the inferred passage. Does changing the scripture to suit the Caesar mean "rendering unto Caesar?" I think not.

  27. #24
    "Governor, if I had foreseen the use those people designed to make of their victory,
    there would have been no surrender at Appomattox Courthouse; no sir, not by me.
    Had I foreseen these results of subjugation, I would have preferred to die at Appomattox
    with my brave men, my sword in my right hand."
    - Robert E. Lee to Governor Fletcher S. Stockdale (D-Texas), 1870



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  29. #25
    I've read the article several times now... it reads like a article in a book about Nazis taking over Germany.... I can't believe this is actually real... i mean... really????
    "Governor, if I had foreseen the use those people designed to make of their victory,
    there would have been no surrender at Appomattox Courthouse; no sir, not by me.
    Had I foreseen these results of subjugation, I would have preferred to die at Appomattox
    with my brave men, my sword in my right hand."
    - Robert E. Lee to Governor Fletcher S. Stockdale (D-Texas), 1870

  30. #26
    The pastors I spoke to tell me they will not comply with the subpoena – putting them at risk for a “fine or confinement, or both.”

    Heaven forbid that should happen. But if it does, Christians across America should be willing to descend en masse upon Houston and join these brave men of God behind bars.
    As much as I'd like to take a minute to enjoy some Romans 13 schadenfreude, I cannot and nobody else should either, this is a very serious reach by the police state, regardless of whether you like Christians or not.

  31. #27
    The pastors I spoke to tell me they will not comply with the subpoena – putting them at risk for a “fine or confinement, or both.”

    Heaven forbid that should happen. But if it does, Christians across America should be willing to descend en masse upon Houston and join these brave men of God behind bars.
    As much as I'd like to take a minute to enjoy some Romans 13 schadenfreude, I cannot and nobody else should either, this is a very serious reach by the police state, regardless of whether you like Christians or not.

  32. #28
    Also demonstrates, again, that the ***** lobby has no real interest in liberty, freedom or "live and let live".

  33. #29
    Heaven forbid that should happen. But if it does, Christians across America should be willing to descend en masse upon Houston and join these brave men of God behind bars.
    I disagree with this whole idea!

    Once government imprisons you it's too late.

    Fight the bastards off by any means necessary.....

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Inkblots View Post
    Because the entire point is for the mayor's political operation to trawl through the sermons for quotes that sound bad or can be taken out of context to demagogue opponents to their "equality" ordinance. Giving them what they want would be a PR disaster -- you really expect the big media outlets to publish full uncut sermons and not a few choice excerpts pointed out by the mayor's office?
    I get that. and I get why being told to hand them over is a bad thing. I just question whether refusing is the right way to go at it. I'd be more impressed if these pastors wrote sermons talking about why such govt power is a bad thing; or even homosexuality. Instead of acting like they have something to hide, publish their sermons and target them specifically for this abuse of power.

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