Vengeful God and Violence in the Bible

[jllundqu]

This technically started in another thread, but no one answered my post, so I'll ask here.

As many of you know, I am not Christian. From what I read in these forums from many of you assert that every word of the bible is absolute truth, not to be questioned. One of the MAIN reasons I left the church is because of how God is portrayed in the Bible itself.

Would someone explain the following chapter?:

Deuteronomy Chap. 13

13 [a]If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.

12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in 13 that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 [B]you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock. 16 You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt, 17 and none of the condemned things[c] are to be found in your hands. Then the Lord will turn from his fierce anger, will show you mercy, and will have compassion on you. He will increase your numbers, as he promised on oath to your ancestors— 18 because you obey the Lord your God by keeping all his commands that I am giving you today and doing what is right in his eyes.

This is just one of many examples of how evil parts of the bible are, imo.

Why on Earth, would I want to worship a God or believe a Bible that commands such ignorance, intolerance, and stupidity? What kind of god is this?

This is not a troll thread. I genuinely want to hear from some of you your thoughts on the above.

Thanks.

[Beorn]

This technically started in another thread, but no one answered my post, so I'll ask here.

As many of you know, I am not Christian. From what I read in these forums from many of you assert that every word of the bible is absolute truth, not to be questioned. One of the MAIN reasons I left the church is because of how God is portrayed in the Bible itself.

Would someone explain the following chapter?:

Deuteronomy Chap. 13



This is just one of many examples of how evil parts of the bible are, imo.

Why on Earth, would I want to worship a God or believe a Bible that commands such ignorance, intolerance, and stupidity? What kind of god is this?

This is not a troll thread. I genuinely want to hear from some of you your thoughts on the above.

Thanks.

You highlighted the punishment not the crime.

What do you think is a suitable punishment for insulting and disobeying God himself the creator of everything and the source of all that is good?

You don't like the punishment and you think it's unfair because you don't recognize the value of God and just how horrible it is to blaspheme him.

[William Tell]

God made the world, he owns the world, he makes the rules. That is the premise of Christianity, and I adhere to it.

[jllundqu]

Ok... I've gotten two responses and both seem to be just fine with killing apostates.

I don't consider "worshipping another god(s)" to be a "crime" that one should be killed over... much less massacre an entire town, men women and children.

WTF?

Is this really the message of Christ? Obey me and me alone or be stoned to death if you leave?

[jllundqu]

I "blaspheme" all day long since I am not Christian.... that's my point. I used to call myself a Christian and was raised as one. According to both of you, I should be killed for my "crime" of leaving and choosing to worship a god that does not condone mass murder.

Thanks Jesus, but no thanks.

[heavenlyboy34]

The commandments in Deuteronomy don't exist in a vacuum. They are for a specific people in a specific place and time. Hence, God the Son came to make sense of the law for the rest of the world and time. (one of the Pharisees' fails was extreme legalism in the Jewish sense)

[dannno]

[jllundqu]

I understand that the Canaanites were a brutal and 'sinful' culture... but I how can one square their beliefs in God when the bible says to kill women and children... innocent people. How can people here on RPF, who advocate liberty and free will and freedom of religion and expression condone such barbarism?

[William Tell]

I "blaspheme" all day long since I am not Christian.... that's my point. I used to call myself a Christian and was raised as one. According to both of you, I should be killed for my "crime" of leaving and choosing to worship a god that does not condone mass murder.

I did not say that you should be killed. But if God did indeed create all things, then he is the one who decides what a is moral or immoral. If God says murder is wrong, it is wrong, if he says worshiping idols is wrong, then it is wrong. Some believe in God, but reject his rules, I have no control over that. I just live my own life.

Thanks Jesus, but no thanks.

Well, Jesus was the one, who according to the Bible, came to forgive us, and told us to not be hypocrites. But that was not what your thread was about.

[heavenlyboy34]

I understand that the Canaanites were a brutal and 'sinful' culture... but I how can one square their beliefs in God when the bible says to kill women and children... innocent people. How can people here on RPF, who advocate liberty and free will and freedom of religion and expression condone such barbarism?

hmmmm....

Your Logical Fallacy Is: Strawman

[Beorn]

I understand that the Canaanites were a brutal and 'sinful' culture... but I how can one square their beliefs in God when the bible says to kill women and children... innocent people. How can people here on RPF, who advocate liberty and free will and freedom of religion and expression condone such barbarism?

Nobody is innocent before God. All have sinned.

The difference between now and then is a matter of authority. Israel was a theocracy that did God's direct bidding. There are no theocracies today and thus no states that have the power to pass that type of judgement.

[William Tell]

(one of the Pharisees' fails was extreme legalism in the Jewish sense)

'Twas hypocrisy, actually, he criticized them for straining the fly and swallowing the camel. They did not live up to the rules they insisted others follow, they looked for loopholes. 'Tis a grave sin, I know I have done it.

[Beorn]

hmmmm....

Yup.

Also, circular reasoning is underneath the condemnations. You can only call such acts barbarism if you deny God's existence and or authority.

[William Tell]

I understand that the Canaanites were a brutal and 'sinful' culture...

If God does not exist, then there is no sin as I see it. Of course, almost all of us believe some things are immoral, weird, eh? But there is not a universal standard for morality from a secular perspective.

[jmdrake]

This technically started in another thread, but no one answered my post, so I'll ask here.

As many of you know, I am not Christian. From what I read in these forums from many of you assert that every word of the bible is absolute truth, not to be questioned. One of the MAIN reasons I left the church is because of how God is portrayed in the Bible itself.

Would someone explain the following chapter?:

Deuteronomy Chap. 13



This is just one of many examples of how evil parts of the bible are, imo.

Why on Earth, would I want to worship a God or believe a Bible that commands such ignorance, intolerance, and stupidity? What kind of god is this?

This is not a troll thread. I genuinely want to hear from some of you your thoughts on the above.

Thanks.

Really? That's the worst you can come up with? There are passages that bother me in the OT but this doesn't rise to the occasion. Would I want to live under this? No. But as others have pointing out it's a warning for a specified crime. And some of these other gods were pretty bad. (Requiring human sacrifice and such.)

[otherone]

'Twas hypocrisy, actually, he criticized them for straining the fly and swallowing the camel. They did not live up to the rules they insisted others follow, they looked for loopholes. 'Tis a grave sin, I know I have done it.

Matthew 23:24 is a good passage for this forum.

[William Tell]

Matthew 23:24 is not about hypocrisy. Actually, it's a good passage for this forum.

Yes it is, he called them hypocrites in the verse before.
(NKJV) Matthew 23:1

Chapter 23
23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. 24 Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

[heavenlyboy34]

'Twas hypocrisy, actually, he criticized them for straining the fly and swallowing the camel. They did not live up to the rules they insisted others follow, they looked for loopholes. 'Tis a grave sin, I know I have done it.

Yep. That's an even better way to put it. ~hugz~

[William Tell]

Yep. That's an even better way to put it. ~hugz~

Thanks man, manly hugz

[Natural Citizen]

Here are some verses that seem to align with the subject matter of the thread...

"Samar'ia shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open." Hosea 13:16

"Behold the day of the Lord is coming, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in the midst of you. For I will gather the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women ravished..." -Zechariah 14:1

"Behold, I will corrupt your seed and spread dung upon your faces..." -Malachi 2:3

"...they have rejected the word of the Lord, and what wisdom is in them? Therefore I will give their wives to others..." -Jeremiah 8:9

"...I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the light of this sun." 2 Samuel 12:11

"(Elisha) went up from there to Bethal; and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, 'Go up, you baldhead! Go up you baldhead!' And he turned around, and when he saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. And two she-bears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the boys." 2 Kings 2:23

"Behold the day of the Lord comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger...Whoever is found will be thrust through and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed in pieces before their eyes, their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished."-Isaiah 13:9, 13:15

"'Pass through the city after him, and smite; your eye shall not spare and you shall show no pity; slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women...'" -Ezekiel 9:5

"Behold, I am against you, says the Lord of hosts, and will lift up your skirts over your face; and I will let nations look on your nakedness and kingdoms on your shame. I will throw filth at you...."-Nahum 3:5

"I myself will lift up your skirts over your face and your shame will be seen." -Jeremiah 13:26

"..the Lord will smite with a scab the heads of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will lay bare their secret parts." -Isaiah 3:17

"The Lord raised up for them a deliverer, Ehud...And Ehud said, 'I have a message from God for you.' And he rose from his seat. And Ehud reached with his left hand, took the sword from his right thigh, and thrust it into his belly; and the hilt also went in after the blade, and the fat closed over the blade, for he did not draw the sword out of his belly; and the dirt came out. Judges 3:15, 3:20

"When men fight with one another, and the wife of one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of him who is beating him, and puts out her hand and seizes him by the private parts, then you shall cut off her hand; your eye shall have no pity." -Deuteronomy 25:11

"Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." -Numbers 31:17

"But if the thing is true, that the tokens of virginity were not found in the young woman, then you shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones..." -Deuteronomy 22:20

"Any animal which has its testicles bruised or crushed or torn or cut, you shall not offer to the Lord or sacrifice within your land..." -Leviticus 22:24

"You have not brought me your sheep for burnt offerings, or honored me with your sacrifices." -Isaiah 43:23

"...I make weal and create woe, I am the Lord, who do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

"Folly is bound up in the heart of a child. But the rod of discipline drives it far from him." Proverbs 22:15

"Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you beat him with a rod, he will not die. If you beat him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol." Proverbs 23:13


And, behold, I will lay bands upon thee, and thou shalt not turn thee from one side to another, till thou hast ended the days of thy siege.

Take thou also unto thee wheat, and barley, and beans, and lentiles, and millet, and fitches, and put them in one vessel, and make thee bread thereof, according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon thy side, three hundred and ninety days shalt thou eat thereof.

And thy meat which thou shalt eat shall be by weight, twenty shekels a day: from time to time shalt thou eat it.

Thou shalt drink also water by measure, the sixth part of an hin: from time to time shalt thou drink.

And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight.

And the LORD said, Even thus shall the children of Israel eat their defiled bread among the Gentiles, whither I will drive them.

Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! behold, my soul hath not been polluted: for from my youth up even till now have I not eaten of that which dieth of itself, or is torn in pieces; neither came there abominable flesh into my mouth.

Then he said unto me, Lo, I have given thee cow's dung for man's dung, and thou shalt prepare thy bread therewith.

[Brett85]

How is it possible for God to do something "evil" when he's the one who creates the rules? What standard of morality to you use to determine that what God did in these instances was "evil?"

[Brett85]

I "blaspheme" all day long since I am not Christian.... that's my point. I used to call myself a Christian and was raised as one. According to both of you, I should be killed for my "crime" of leaving and choosing to worship a god that does not condone mass murder.

Thanks Jesus, but no thanks.

Well, we all should be killed for sinning against God. The Bible teaches that the wages of sin is death. In the next life, the unsaved will perish in the lake of fire. But you can avoid that fate if you turn to Christ and accept what he did for you on the cross.

[Natural Citizen]

How is it possible for God to do something "evil" when he's the one who creates the rules? What standard of morality to you use to determine that what God did in these instances was "evil?"

Well. How is it possible to ask a moral question while premising it upon an unproven pre-requisite for order itself? The standard of ones morality determines the validity? I don't think so. Morality is subjective as it is. What you're doing, essentially, is creating "God" in man's image. Again...subjective. And man always identifies himself from the perspective of his own morals.

[Miss Annie]

The first thing I will say about this is that any type of sin we commit does not only hurt ourselves, but hurts others too, either directly or indirectly.

But.... I think my take on this is a little bit different than others.

Genesis 6 King James Version (KJV)

6 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Now granted, this story is leading up to the flood of Noah, but notice the underlined part "and after that". That means that the flood did not eradicate the Nephilim.

I also notice that all of the verses that you posted were punishments for idolatry. I think one thing that we need to understand is that yes, God was / is a jealous God and wanted / wants worship only for himself... but He was also trying to protect the people because many of those gods that people worshipped demanded things like human and child sacrifice.

The Nephilim were definitely trying to lead people away from God and lead them into idolatry.

[Brett85]

Well. How is it possible to ask a moral question while premising it upon an unproven pre-requisite for order itself? The standard of ones morality determines the validity? I don't think so. Morality is subjective as it is.

How do you determine morality? What is your standard? And how can your standard of morality apply to everyone?

[Natural Citizen]

How do you determine morality? What is your standard? And how can your standard of morality apply to everyone?

You have to answer my question first, TC.


Also...when I say You or your, I don't mean to ask it in a way that literally means you. We is probably a better use of language, I imagine.

[Brett85]

You have to answer my question first, TC.


Also...when I say You or your, I don't mean to ask it in a way that literally means you. We is probably a better use of language, I imagine.

I don't really understand your question. Please try to explain further.

[bubbleboy]

Maybe God was prophesying what was to befell them. Maybe its because translation and a BUNCH of different ones. Maybe there was bloodlines of angels, animals and polluted DNA and hybrid humans living in the land.

What I'm thinking is WHAT other god? Technically. Isn't it too each knows good doesn't do it is sin? '

These are mysteries only revealed to those whom He has choosen, the rest are blinded, but not lost.

[pcosmar]

This is not a troll thread. I genuinely want to hear from some of you your thoughts on the above.

Thanks.

Allrighty then,,

If you read the book from the beginning, it is not unclear at all.

First before the flood. And soon again after. It was the Fallen Angels that taught man to war in the first place.
God is looking for a people who will chose to love him. And to be given a free choice,, there has to be a wrong choice.

But it was not God that first taught man to war.

[Natural Citizen]

I don't really understand your question. Please try to explain further.

Okay. Do pm or something, though. I don't really feel like wrecking the direction of the thread or anything. Plus I want to browse through the news and whatnot.