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Thread: The libertarian case against gay marriage

  1. #1

    The libertarian case against gay marriage

    Note that Justin Raimondo is openly gay.
    http://www.theamericanconservative.c...-gay-marriage/

    The Libertarian Case Against Gay Marriage
    By Justin Raimondo • April 1, 2011

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    Opponents of same-sex marriage have marshaled all sorts of arguments to make their case, from the rather alarmist view that it would de-sanctify and ultimately destroy heterosexual marriage to the assertion that it would logically lead to polygamy and the downfall of Western civilization. None of these arguments—to my mind, at least—make the least amount of sense, and they have all been singularly ineffective in beating back the rising tide of sentiment in favor of allowing same-sex couples the “right” to marry.

    The problem with these arguments is that they are all rooted in religion or in some secular concept of morality alien to American culture in the 21st century—a culture that is characterized by relativism, impiety, and a preoccupation with other matters that make this issue less pressing than it otherwise might be. Yet there is an effective conservative—or rather libertarian—case to be made against legalizing gay marriage, one that can be summarized by the old aphorism: be careful what you ask for because you just might get it.

    The imposition of a legal framework on the intricate web of relationships that have previously existed in the realm of freedom—that is, outside the law and entirely dependent on the trust and compliance of the individuals involved—would not only be a setback for liberty but a disaster for those it supposedly benefits: gay people themselves.

    Of course, we already have gay marriages. Just as heterosexual marriage, as an institution, preceded the invention of the state, so the homosexual version existed long before anyone thought to give it legal sanction. Extending the authority of the state into territory previously untouched by its tender ministrations, legalizing relationships that had developed and been found rewarding entirely without this imprimatur, would wreak havoc where harmony once prevailed. Imagine a relationship of some duration in which one partner, the breadwinner, had supported his or her partner without much thought about the economics of the matter: one had stayed home and tended the house, while the other had been in the workforce, bringing home the bacon. This division of labor had prevailed for many years, not requiring any written contract or threat of legal action to enforce its provisions.

    Then, suddenly, they are legally married—or, in certain states, considered married under the common law. This changes the relationship, and not for the better. For now the property of the breadwinner is not his or her own: half of it belongs to the stay-at-home. Before when they argued, money was never an issue: now, when the going gets rough, the threat of divorce—and the specter of alimony—hangs over the relationship, and the mere possibility casts its dark shadow over what had once been a sunlit field.

    If and when gay marriage comes to pass, its advocates will have a much harder time convincing their fellow homosexuals to exercise their “right” than they did in persuading the rest of the country to grant it. That’s because they have never explained—and never could explain—why it would make sense for gays to entangle themselves in a regulatory web and risk getting into legal disputes over divorce, alimony, and the division of property.

    Marriage evolved because of the existence of children: without them, the institution loses its biological, economic, and historical basis, its very reason for being. This is not to say childless couples—including gay couples—are any less worthy (or less married) than others. It means only that they are not bound by necessity to a mutual commitment involving the ongoing investment of considerable resources.

    From two sets of given circumstances, two parallel traditions have evolved: one, centered around the rearing of children, is heterosexual marriage, the habits and rules of which have been recognized and formalized by the state. The reason for this recognition is simple: the welfare of the children, who must be protected from neglect and abuse.

    The various childless unions and alternative relationships that are an increasing factor in modern society have evolved informally, with minimal state intervention. Rather than anchored by necessity, they are governed by the centrality of freedom.

    The prospect of freedom—not only from traditional moral restraints but from legal burdens and responsibilities—is part of what made homosexuality appealing in the early days of the gay-liberation movement. At any rate, society’s lack of interest in formalizing the love lives of the nation’s homosexuals did not result in any decrease in homosexuality or make it any less visible. Indeed, if the experience of the past 30 years means anything, quite the opposite is the case. By superimposing the legal and social constraints of heterosexual marriage on gay relationships, we will succeed only in de-eroticizing them. Are gay marriage advocates trying to take the gayness out of homosexuality?

    The gay-rights movement took its cues from the civil rights movement, modeling its grievances on those advanced by the moderate wing led by Dr. Martin Luther King and crafting a legislative agenda borrowed from the NAACP and allied organizations: the passage of anti-discrimination laws—covering housing, employment, and public accommodations—at the local and national level. Efforts to institutionalize gay marriage have followed this course, with “equality” as the goal.

    But the civil rights paradigm never really fit: unlike most African-Americans, lesbians and gay men can render their minority status invisible. Furthermore, their economic status is not analogous—indeed, there are studies that show gay men, at least, are economically better off on average than heterosexuals. They tend to be better educated, have better jobs, and these days are not at all what one could call an oppressed minority. According to GayAgenda.com, “studies show that [gay] Americans are twice as likely to have graduated from college, twice as likely to have an individual income over $60,000 and twice as likely to have a household income of $250,000 or more.”

    Gays an oppressed minority group? I don’t think so.

    The gay-liberation movement started as a protest against state oppression. The earliest gay-rights organizations, such as the Mattachine Society and the Daughters of Bilitis, sought to legalize homosexual activity, then illegal per se. The movement was radicalized in the 1960s over police harassment. A gay bar on New York City’s Christopher Street, known as the Stonewall, was the scene of a three-day riot provoked by a police raid. Tired of being subjected to continual assault by the boys in blue, gay people fought back—and won. At the time, gay bars were under general attack from the New York State Liquor Authority, which pulled licenses as soon as a bar’s reputation as a gay gathering place became apparent. Activists of that era concentrated their fire on the issues that really mattered to the gay person in the street: the legalization of homosexual conduct and the protection of gay institutions.

    As gay activists grew older, however, and began to channel their political energy into the Democratic Party, they entered a new and more “moderate” phase. Instead of celebrating their unique identity and history, they undertook the arid quest for equality—which meant, in practice, battling “discrimination” in employment and housing, a marginal issue for most gay people—and finally taking up the crusade for gay marriage.

    Instead of battling the state, they began to use the state against their perceived enemies. As it became fashionable and politically correct to be “pro-gay,” a propaganda campaign was undertaken in the public schools, epitomized by the infamous “Rainbow Curriculum” and the equally notorious tome for totsHeather Has Two Mommies. For liberals, who see the state not as Nietzsche’s “cold monster” but as a warm and caring therapist who is there to help, this was only natural. The Therapeutic State, after all, is meant to transform society into a liberal utopia where no one judges anyone and everyone listens to NPR.

    These legislative efforts are largely educational: once enacted, anti-discrimination ordinances in housing, for example, are meant to show that the state is taking a side and indirectly teaching citizens a lesson—that it’s wrong to discriminate against gays. The reality on the ground, however, is a different matter: since there’s no way to know if one is being discriminated against on account of one’s presumed sexuality—and since gays have the choice not to divulge that information—it is impossible to be sure if such discrimination has occurred, short of a “No Gays Need Apply” sign on the door. Moreover, landlords, even the bigots among them, are hardly upset when a couple of gays move in, fix up the place to look like something out of House & Garden, and pay the rent on time. The homosexual agenda of today has little relevance to the way gay people actually live their lives.

    But the legislative agenda of the modern gay-rights movement is not meant to be useful to the gay person in the street: it is meant to garner support from heterosexual liberals and others with access to power. It is meant to assure the careers of aspiring gay politicos and boost the fortunes of the left wing of the Democratic Party. The gay-marriage campaign is the culmination of this distancing trend, the reductio ad absurdum of the civil rights paradigm.

    The modern gay-rights movement is all about securing the symbols of societal acceptance. It is a defensive strategy, one that attempts to define homosexuals as an officially sanctioned victim group afflicted with an inherent disability, a disadvantage that must be compensated for legislatively. But if “gay pride” means anything, it means not wanting, needing, or seeking any sort of acceptance but self-acceptance. Marriage is a social institution designed by heterosexuals for heterosexuals: why should gay people settle for their cast-off hand-me-downs?

    Justin Raimondo is editorial director of Antiwar.com and author of Reclaiming the American Right: The Lost Legacy of the Conservative Movement.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
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    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.



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  3. #2
    An alternate libertarian case: Is it peaceful? Is it voluntary? Is it between two consenting adults? Then it's none of my business. Have at it. Carry on.

    Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do (pdf)

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    An alternate libertarian case: Is it peaceful? Is it voluntary? Is it between two consenting adults? Then it's none of my business. Have at it. Carry on.

    Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do (pdf)
    Right. There's no reason for the state to ban or legitimize anybody's marriage. And that applies to a lot of other consensual activities.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Right. There's no reason for the state to ban or legitimize anybody's marriage. And that applies to a lot of other consensual activities.
    replace with 'recognize' and 'contracts'.
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  6. #5
    Bump
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Marriage evolved because of the existence of children: without them, the institution loses its biological, economic, and historical basis, its very reason for being. This is not to say childless couples—including gay couples—are any less worthy (or less married) than others. It means only that they are not bound by necessity to a mutual commitment involving the ongoing investment of considerable resources.
    First of all, that's a total misunderstanding of marriage. Ppl don't just get married for kids. They also do it for relationship and economic resources, its easy to pool resources living together, and if you're going to do it, then it helps to have a "mutual commitment involving the ongoing investment of considerable resources," and they thus try to do it with someone that they'll want to be with 'forever.'

    Second, this argument that they're being pulled into this crazy regulatory scheme. Okay. And? If they want to do it, then there's no harm to them. The only potential harm is that they're using our tax dollars for the courts/paperwork when millions are already doing this. That's not an argument against gay marriage, that's arbitrarily singling out gays for doing the same thing as others.

    Finally, its important and relevant that a huge portion of the libertarians opposing gay marriage do so not on principled libertarian grounds, but due to their opposition to homosexual lifestyle. Notice how Justin Raimondo isn't arguing for getting rid of govt-marriage, he's trying to reach out to conservatives/moderates who only want to leave out same-sex marriage. He's selectively deciding when to complain about govt regulations and when not to. That's not libertarianism, that's just homophobia disguised as libertarianism. If you want to leave gays out of a program because you actually think gays are entitled to less than you, then you're arguing that you deserve something from the state that gay's don't deserve. And that's not libertarianism.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by maybemaybenot View Post
    Finally, its important and relevant that a huge portion of the libertarians opposing gay marriage do so not on principled libertarian grounds, but due to their opposition to homosexual lifestyle. Notice how Justin Raimondo isn't arguing for getting rid of govt-marriage, he's trying to reach out to conservatives/moderates who only want to leave out same-sex marriage. He's selectively deciding when to complain about govt regulations and when not to. That's not libertarianism, that's just homophobia disguised as libertarianism. If you want to leave gays out of a program because you actually think gays are entitled to less than you, then you're arguing that you deserve something from the state that gay's don't deserve. And that's not libertarianism.
    So Justin Raimondo is a homophobic homosexual, thanks for enlightening us.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
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  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    So Justin Raimondo is a homophobic homosexual, thanks for enlightening us.
    Oh, so he's worse than a bigot, he's a sellout. He's calling for different rights for straights and gays, even though he's gay, because it helps his political goals. F*ck him. Thx for the info. Now I know to never, ever give a f*ck about Justin Raimondo.



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  11. #9
    Sorry, Raimondo. THIS is the correct approach... End government regulation of marriage. Period.


  12. #10
    As an artificial construct fot purposes of the state, replace "marriage" with "defined household" and carry on. Make provision for any two adults to define themselves as a household with whatever benefits / rights seem appropriate.
    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

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  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by maybemaybenot View Post
    F*ck him.
    No thanks, I'm not into that crap.

    Quote Originally Posted by maybemaybenot View Post
    Now I know to never, ever give a f*ck about Justin Raimondo.
    Make up your mind already.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Sorry, Raimondo. THIS is the correct approach... End government regulation of marriage. Period.
    Justin is a Rothbardian an-cap - he doesn't support state endorsement or regulation of any kind of marriage.

    But like abortion, "gay marriage" - as distinct from just "marriage" - is one of those issues upon which there is deeper/wider division among libertarians relative to other issues (such as minimum wages or the War on Drugs). This - combined with the fact that Justin is gay himself (with the result that the issue strikes much "closer to home" for him than for most of the rest of us) - is why he focuses his opposition on "extending the franchise" of government-sponsored marriages (rather than on the existence of the franchise itself).

    IOW: It shouldn't be taken as an indication that Raimondo approves of or supports state licensing of "straight" marriages. He does not. He is simply expressing his opposition to government-sponsored "gay" marriage in terms of the deleterious politicization of the "gay culture" of which he is a part. Given his perspective as a gay man, this does not at all seem an unreasonable approach for him to take.
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  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    Justin is a Rothbardian an-cap - he doesn't support state endorsement or regulation of any kind of marriage.

    But like abortion, "gay marriage" - as distinct from just "marriage" - is one of those issues upon which there is deeper/wider division among libertarians relative to other issues (such as minimum wages or the War on Drugs). This - combined with the fact that Justin is gay himself (with the result that the issue strikes much "closer to home" for him than for most of the rest of us) - is why he focuses his opposition on "extending the franchise" of government-sponsored marriages (rather than on the existence of the franchise itself).

    IOW: It shouldn't be taken as an indication that Raimondo approves of or supports state licensing of "straight" marriages. He does not. He is simply expressing his opposition to government-sponsored "gay" marriage in terms of the deleterious politicization of the "gay culture" of which he is a part. Given his perspective as a gay man, this does not at all seem an unreasonable approach for him to take.
    But he purposely writes an article for homohpobic conservatives, misleading them into thinking that he supports marriage as a whole, he's still playing ball with the homophobes to benefit his own political career.. 99% of ppl don't know that libertarians want out of govt-marriage, so handing that article to someone implies that he's just against same-sex marriage. This was on purpose. Its like a politician using doulbespeak. $#@! Justin Raimondo.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by maybemaybenot View Post
    But he purposely writes an article for homohpobic conservatives, misleading them into thinking that he supports marriage as a whole, he's still playing ball with the homophobes to benefit his own political career.. 99% of ppl don't know that libertarians want out of govt-marriage, so handing that article to someone implies that he's just against same-sex marriage. This was on purpose. Its like a politician using doulbespeak. $#@! Justin Raimondo.
    What do you think of Ron Paul?
    Stop believing stupid things

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Tywysog Cymru View Post
    What do you think of Ron Paul?
    He's like Thomas Jefferson. I admire him greatly, but he's a bigot, and I'm not a sheep in his flock. And he sure as hell doesn't deserve a statue. A statist who believes in basic human equality deserves a statue before a bigot does, because the only thing more evil than statism is class-based statism. THere was no liberty when there were slaves, and there is no liberty when your tax dollars subside an institution used to label gays as "others" and "inferior," and that's exactly what we have when legislatures play this game and categorize citizens. Its state-subsidized scarlet letters, and $#@! anyone who agrees with it. Equality is a necessary part of liberty. And I mean equal rights, I know there's a horde of sheep ready to call me a communist just for saying the government has to follow the constitution (and basic decency) and apply laws equally.
    Last edited by maybemaybenot; 10-18-2014 at 12:12 PM.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by maybemaybenot View Post
    ...he's a sellout.

    Gays are actually selling out their rights by pushing for government privilege.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
    Gays are actually selling out their rights by pushing for government privilege.
    Lol Its not govt privilege. This is whether to allow gays to get the same privilege as everyone else. You're arguing for govt privilege. You're saying one group gets to do it but not another group.

    Many ppl seek the rational benefits of marriage, like the status (its good for careers sometimes), for religious reasons (and ppl religiously believe they need a govt certificate), economic benefits. There are zoning regulations saying ppl have to be nuclear families. It is fundamentally unlibertarian to deny these benefits on the basis of homosexuality. Government should get out of marriage, and stop creating these classes entirely. But in the meantime, fairness and justice clearly dictate that you give them the same benefits others get.

    I think its an absurd "ends justify the means" illusion, as if banning gay govt-marriage really brings us closer to banning government-marriage. In the meantime, two women that love each other can't live in same neighborhood as a man and woman who love eachother, because of zoning regulations. And a million other unequal injustices from not allowing gay ppl to get the the same status/benefits as others. This isn't a libertarian hypothetical, this is specifically whether or not to allow gays to use the program that straight ppl already use. This is like denying social security benefits based on race, then saying its great cuz we're slowly getting out of social security. Meanwhile, blacks pay for something and get nothing out of it.
    Last edited by maybemaybenot; 10-18-2014 at 05:12 PM.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by maybemaybenot View Post
    In the meantime, two women that love each other can't live in same neighborhood as a man and woman who love eachother, because of zoning regulations.
    Where does that happen?
    #NashvilleStrong

    “I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by maybemaybenot View Post
    First of all, that's a total misunderstanding of marriage. Ppl don't just get married for kids. They also do it for relationship and economic resources, its easy to pool resources living together, and if you're going to do it, then it helps to have a "mutual commitment involving the ongoing investment of considerable resources," and they thus try to do it with someone that they'll want to be with 'forever.'
    State involvement in marriage has generally been about family perpetuation (yes, the children). All kinds of groups pool their resources (college students, roommates, extended families, communes, etc.), but they are obviously not married. Other "resources" have never been viewed nearly as important as the resource of children and perpetuation of the family.




    Second, this argument that they're being pulled into this crazy regulatory scheme. Okay. And? If they want to do it, then there's no harm to them.
    Every regulation means a gradual loss of freedom. If you value freedom, then you see the harm.



    The only potential harm is that they're using our tax dollars for the courts/paperwork...
    That harm is not "only" and "potential," but real, insidious, and exponential.


    when millions are already doing this.
    That's privilege. If you want to go-along-to-get-along, then so be it. Don't however, criticize libertarians for being immoral and not taking the high ground, when you are do the exact same thing. Your effort is less about the high ground, but just securing more money through marriage (tax breaks, benefits, etc.). If you are really interested in equality and not privilege, then you would work to end state involvement in marriage. If that is too tall an order, then just acknowledge it instead of criticizing people for the exact same government bootlicking you seek.





    Finally, its important and relevant that a huge portion of the libertarians opposing gay marriage do so not on principled libertarian grounds, but due to their opposition to homosexual lifestyle.

    Do you have a source or is this just your own brand of bigotry again?
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by maybemaybenot View Post
    Lol You're saying one group gets to do it but not another group.
    No, I did not. Go ahead and do it, but it's a sellout, especially in the context of you pretending the take the moral high ground. You simply seek the same money as everyone else (tax breaks, benefits, etc.). So be it if that is your goal, but don't pretend you're taking the high ground. You are seeking to sell your rights for privilege, something that heterosexuals sold long ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Sorry, Raimondo. THIS is the correct approach... End government regulation of marriage. Period.

    BOOM!! Headshot! Thnx for sharing, I missed that one. 3 cheers to gunny for the rhetoric as well as the legislation. ~applauds~
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
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  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by maybemaybenot View Post
    he's still playing ball with the homophobes to benefit his own political career.
    You keep throwing out the term homophobes. If you want to have credibility, maybe you should think about not making sweeping generalizations and being a little more consistent in your argument.
    #NashvilleStrong

    “I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi

  26. #23
    Get back to me when there's actual progress at getting the state out of marriage or a movement larger than Ron Paul supporters. Until then, I'll continue supporting legalizing gay marriage. A few of us in our little group want the state out of all marriages and most people never heard of such a concept.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    BOOM!! Headshot! Thnx for sharing, I missed that one. 3 cheers to gunny for the rhetoric as well as the legislation. ~applauds~
    Glen's too damn good, too damn right, so after the Reps won the majority for the first time in forever they gerrymandered him out. I'll not vote this go around in N.C. except for Haughs.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by fr33 View Post
    Get back to me when there's actual progress at getting the state out of marriage or a movement larger than Ron Paul supporters. Until then, I'll continue supporting legalizing gay marriage. A few of us in our little group want the state out of all marriages and most people never heard of such a concept.
    Wow. What a great guy you are, looking good to leftists while demeaning people who actually stand up for your supposed principles.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by green73 View Post
    Wow. What a great guy you are, looking good to leftists while demeaning people who actually stand up for your supposed principles.
    Show me a bill that gets the government out of marriage. Meanwhile people like Ron Paul support DOMA and the Marriage Protection Act. Neither of those get the government out of marriage. They do the opposite. When touting "state's rights", you are not supporting getting government out of marriage. You are supporting the government defining marriage.

  31. #27
    The whole "get govt out of marriage" argument is similar to how some people claim we can't get rid of warfare or welfare spending until we end the fed.

    "To really stop this, we must end the fed first."

    No, we have to end the injustice first. The fed will end when it's no longer needed to pay for the injustice. Ending the fed first will ensure a new central bank will be established to fund the root problems that some are willing to ignore. That has happened before.

    Get the govt out of marriage? Who's going to do that? I guarantee you Rand is not going to campaign on that.
    Last edited by fr33; 10-19-2014 at 12:46 AM.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by fr33 View Post
    Show me a bill that gets the government out of marriage. Meanwhile people like Ron Paul support DOMA and the Marriage Protection Act. Neither of those get the government out of marriage. They do the opposite. When touting "state's rights", you are not supporting getting government out of marriage. You are supporting the government defining marriage.
    Your silly enmity towards Ron Paul baffles me. As a statist (correct me if I'm wrong) you should support at least the decentralization of marriage.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by green73 View Post
    Your silly enmity towards Ron Paul baffles me. As a statist (correct me if I'm wrong) you should support at least the decentralization of marriage.
    Calling me names does not answer my challenge nor solve the problem our movement faces. It is also inaccurate. You are calling me a statist for criticizing a statist. If getting the government out of marriage is what we want, and it is, then why has our standard bearer never even tried to do that? Rather why has he always done the opposite?
    Last edited by fr33; 10-19-2014 at 12:47 AM.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by fr33 View Post
    Calling me names does not answer my challenge nor solve the problem our movement faces. It is also inaccurate. You are calling me a statist for criticizing a statist. If getting the government out of marriage is what we want, and it is, then why has our standard bearer never even tried to do that. Rather why has he always done the opposite?
    "Our standard bearer" as you say has alway been consistent in advocating for less centralization first and foremost. As an elected politician I think we should be damn grateful for how successful he was at advancing the philosophy of freedom. That he should be criticized for sometimes advocating policies that trended away from central government but weren't "libertarian enough" is laughable.

    Christ, the guy got $#@! from most the world for always voting no, and now he gets $#@! here too for what he did support?

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