How does one lose their salvation?

[Kevin007]

honest question. I like to hear how and when someone loses it? Something so important as this there should be specific things we do to lose it? Or how many times we sin or do not repent till we lose it? When does the Spirit leave a Believer? What types of sins cause us to lose our salvation? Can we get our salvation back? Whats the difference between backsliding and losing our salvation? Would a believer know when they lose it or when they get it back? Is there any person in the bible who lost it then got it back? Will God give us a clear warning just before we could lose our salvation? Try to focus on bible verses, passages etc.. when possible.

[Terry1]

honest question. I like to hear how and when someone loses it? Something so important as this there should be specific things we do to lose it? Or how many times we sin or do not repent till we lose it? When does the Spirit leave a Believer? What types of sins cause us to lose our salvation? Can we get our salvation back? Whats the difference between backsliding and losing our salvation? Would a believer know when they lose it or when they get it back? Is there any person in the bible who lost it then got it back? Will God give us a clear warning just before we could lose our salvation? Try to focus on bible verses, passages etc.. when possible.

I'm beginning to think that the only posts you read are your own. Every question you've asked in this post has been hammered to death attempting to show you by others. I can't believe you're even asking this after everything people have posted along with scripture to back that up. Something's very wrong Kevin. I'm also beginning to think that you have a reading comp problem as well--actually--I've thought this for a while now.

I will explain one thing though--if a believer "backslides" and repents/changes their mind--they are still within the bounds of grace and faith and in a state of Elect. We are given "space to repent" for a time--Gods time--not ours. Only God knows when a believer will not return to repentance and Him. This is where Hebrews 6:4 comes in and tells you that God turns them over to their own delusions. Delusions mean just that--they've deluded themselves to the point where the Holy Spirit can no longer convict them to repentance, which is the only way back to God when we stumble. They're not stumbling any more when they reach this point. Their "space and time to repent" has ran out because God knows they will never return to where they were in Him. They are then cut off from the Vine/Jesus and burned--John 15:5 and Hebrews 6:4 again.

No--the ex-believer no longer lives in the state of belief, faith or walks in the Holy Spirit. They will not know when God has turned them over to reprobates--they will be turned over to their strong "delusions" believing something else and that they still retain salvation even though they're lost forever. This is why Jesus said--"go away--I never knew you". Falling from grace and faith is the same as if they'd never believed at all. This is something they can never change and they won't want to either because they're living in a delusion that they chose for themselves--they are lost forever. This is also why you're told to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling"--because believing lies will lead to eternal destruction of the soul.


2 Thessalonians 2:10-13

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. ...


2 Thessalonians 2:11

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Isaiah 66:4

I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

2 Peter 2:1

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

OSAS teaches "being forgiven in advance of our sin"---which is a lie. Jesus teaches that only upon repentance are we forgiven for our sins. Repentance does not end at confession of belief--that is where our journey in repentance begins and is why when God turns someone over to their own strong delusions--they are unable to be "renewed to repentance" forever--they have fallen and they are lost and will be burned to ashes as the branch in the true Vine that died and was "cut off" from Jesus/true vine-- because it bore no fruit--good works.

Then when you are face to face with Jesus and say--"but Lord--I believed and had faith--I did good things in your name and Jesus says--go away I never knew you. Because good works are only good if they're done in the spirit of the Lord--walking in the spirit and obeying His voice--otherwise--everything you've done is a dead work because you thought it made you righteous in the eyes of God. Which God says are as filthy rags to Him.

Not believing you have to repent of anything and believing that you're forgiven in advance while at the same time also believing that good works as instructed by the Holy Spirit are not what faith is made of--will indeed cause a believer to fall into unbelief and from grace and faith. Their faith will die and they will be cut off and burned--as if they never were and Jesus never knew them at all.

[Kevin007]

I'm beginning to think that the only posts you read are your own. Every question you've asked in this post has been hammered to death attempting to show you by others. I can't believe you're even asking this after everything people have posted along with scripture to back that up. Something's very wrong Kevin. I'm also beginning to think that you have a reading comp problem as well--actually--I've thought this for a while now.

I will explain one thing though--if a believer "backslides" and repents/changes their mind--they are still within the bounds of grace and faith and in a state of Elect. We are given "space to repent" for a time--Gods time--not ours. Only God knows when a believer will not return to repentance and Him. This is where Hebrews 6:4 comes in and tells you that God turns them over to their own delusions. Delusions mean just that--they've deluded themselves to the point where the Holy Spirit can no longer convict them to repentance, which is the only way back to God when we stumble. They're not stumbling any more when they reach this point. Their "space and time to repent" has ran out because God knows they will never return to where they were in Him. They are then cut off from the Vine/Jesus and burned--John 15:5 and Hebrews 6:4 again.

No--the ex-believer no longer lives in the state of belief, faith or walks in the Holy Spirit. They will not know when God has turned them over to reprobates--they will be turned over to their strong "delusions" believing something else and that they still retain salvation even though they're lost forever. This is why Jesus said--"go away--I never knew you". Falling from grace and faith is the same as if they'd never believed at all. This is something they can never change and they won't want to either because they're living in a delusion that they chose for themselves--they are lost forever. This is also why you're told to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling"--because believing lies will lead to eternal destruction of the soul.


2 Thessalonians 2:10-13

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. ...


2 Thessalonians 2:11

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Isaiah 66:4

I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

2 Peter 2:1

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

OSAS teaches "being forgiven in advance of our sin"---which is a lie. Jesus teaches that only upon repentance are we forgiven for our sins. Repentance does not end at confession of belief--that is where our journey in repentance begins and is why when God turns someone over to their own strong delusions--they are unable to be "renewed to repentance" forever--they have fallen and they are lost and will be burned to ashes as the branch in the true Vine that died and was "cut off" from Jesus/true vine-- because it bore no fruit--good works.

Then when you are face to face with Jesus and say--"but Lord--I believed and had faith--I did good things in your name and Jesus says--go away I never knew you. Because good works are only good if they're done in the spirit of the Lord--walking in the spirit and obeying His voice--otherwise--everything you've done is a dead work because you thought it made you righteous in the eyes of God. Which God says are as filthy rags to Him.

Not believing you have to repent of anything and believing that you're forgiven in advance while at the same time also believing that good works as instructed by the Holy Spirit are not what faith is made of--will indeed cause a believer to fall into unbelief and from grace and faith. Their faith will die and they will be cut off and burned--as if they never were and Jesus never knew them at all.

explain it to me again. Answer the questions please. I would like to know. What are the "bounds of grace"?

[Natural Citizen]

Something so important as this there should be specific things we do to lose it? Or how many times we sin or do not repent till we lose it?

Well. I don't know. I, for one, would say that if we didn't sin then the Jesus figure would have then died for nothing. Amirite?

[Kevin007]

I'm beginning to think that the only posts you read are your own. Every question you've asked in this post has been hammered to death attempting to show you by others. I can't believe you're even asking this after everything people have posted along with scripture to back that up. Something's very wrong Kevin. I'm also beginning to think that you have a reading comp problem as well--actually--I've thought this for a while now.

I will explain one thing though--if a believer "backslides" and repents/changes their mind--they are still within the bounds of grace and faith and in a state of Elect. We are given "space to repent" for a time--Gods time--not ours. Only God knows when a believer will not return to repentance and Him. This is where Hebrews 6:4 comes in and tells you that God turns them over to their own delusions. Delusions mean just that--they've deluded themselves to the point where the Holy Spirit can no longer convict them to repentance, which is the only way back to God when we stumble. They're not stumbling any more when they reach this point. Their "space and time to repent" has ran out because God knows they will never return to where they were in Him. They are then cut off from the Vine/Jesus and burned--John 15:5 and Hebrews 6:4 again.

No--the ex-believer no longer lives in the state of belief, faith or walks in the Holy Spirit. They will not know when God has turned them over to reprobates--they will be turned over to their strong "delusions" believing something else and that they still retain salvation even though they're lost forever. This is why Jesus said--"go away--I never knew you". Falling from grace and faith is the same as if they'd never believed at all. This is something they can never change and they won't want to either because they're living in a delusion that they chose for themselves--they are lost forever. This is also why you're told to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling"--because believing lies will lead to eternal destruction of the soul.


2 Thessalonians 2:10-13

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. ...


2 Thessalonians 2:11

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Isaiah 66:4

I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

2 Peter 2:1

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

OSAS teaches "being forgiven in advance of our sin"---which is a lie. Jesus teaches that only upon repentance are we forgiven for our sins. Repentance does not end at confession of belief--that is where our journey in repentance begins and is why when God turns someone over to their own strong delusions--they are unable to be "renewed to repentance" forever--they have fallen and they are lost and will be burned to ashes as the branch in the true Vine that died and was "cut off" from Jesus/true vine-- because it bore no fruit--good works.

Then when you are face to face with Jesus and say--"but Lord--I believed and had faith--I did good things in your name and Jesus says--go away I never knew you. Because good works are only good if they're done in the spirit of the Lord--walking in the spirit and obeying His voice--otherwise--everything you've done is a dead work because you thought it made you righteous in the eyes of God. Which God says are as filthy rags to Him.

Not believing you have to repent of anything and believing that you're forgiven in advance while at the same time also believing that good works as instructed by the Holy Spirit are not what faith is made of--will indeed cause a believer to fall into unbelief and from grace and faith. Their faith will die and they will be cut off and burned--as if they never were and Jesus never knew them at all.

2 Thes. is talking about the tribulation and the Antichrist Terry. Isaiah was written to unrepentant Israel. The false teachers are talking about churches/religions like Mormonism JW's, etc... I'm appalled you would insult me like that (reading comprehension problem), because I disagree with you? And I think you are misinterpreting scripture? Have you no shame Terry?

The reprobates and turning over to strong delusion isn't talking about a Believer Terry. It is talking about the tribulation where God sends unbelievers a delusion to believe the lies and miracles of the A.C. You clearly need to brush up/learn your Prophecy. You are not even in the ballpark. Your tunnel vision to prove OSAS wrong is hurting your ability to discern truth. Pray now to God and ask him to help you see bible truths via the Holy Spirit. Ask Him to take your hard heart and soften it so you can clearly understand God's truths of eternal security and the end times. It's ok to ask for help Terry. None of us are perfect and we won't judge you friend


And as far as God not telling a Believer when He will stop accepting His repentence? Are you serious? First of all, something so important- God will just cut him off? And second of all. Let me educate you on something. What did Jesus say to Peter about FORGIVENESS? Here let me help you;


21Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?" 22Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.…

(Mat 18:21-22)

Let me say one more thing Terry- you are trusting in your good works for salvation.

[jmdrake]

How did Crashland lose his? Oh yes, that's right. He was never saved. He just thought he was saved. Or maybe he still is saved and will one day realize it again.

[Brett85]

Well, you can certainly lose it if you decide to choose to no longer believe, if you come out and say that you reject Christ and no longer believe in what he did for you on the cross.

[lilymc]

Well, you can certainly lose it if you decide to choose to no longer believe, if you come out and say that you reject Christ and no longer believe in what he did for you on the cross.

Once a person has passed from death to life, that's it, you have eternal life. Not only is the bible clear that God will never leave someone who is truly His, and that He will never stop loving them, but the scriptures also state that someone who is a genuine believer (born from above) will not leave, because God makes sure of that.

"I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never turn away from doing good to them, and I will put fear of Me in their hearts so they will never again turn away from Me."

Jeremiah 32:40

[Terry1]

Once a person has passed from death to life, that's it, you have eternal life. Not only is the bible clear that God will never leave someone who is truly His, and that He will never stop loving them, but the scriptures also state that someone who is a genuine believer (born from above) will not leave, because God makes sure of that.

"I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never turn away from doing good to them, and I will put fear of Me in their hearts so they will never again turn away from Me."

Jeremiah 32:40

What is that verse talking about and whom Lily and why do you think God said "I will put fear of Me in their hearts--so they will never again turn away from Me".

This is another type and shadow of what was. Can you tell me what God is talking about here and with regard to whom?

[lilymc]

What is that verse talking about and whom Lily and why do you think God said "I will put fear of Me in their hearts--so they will never again turn away from Me".

This is another type and shadow of what was. Can you tell me what God is talking about here and with regard to whom?

It's a prophetic scripture about the New Covenant.

Which is JESUS. The one you need to come to first, instead of trying to earn your way to heaven.

[Terry1]

It's a prophetic scripture about the New Covenant.

Which is JESUS. The one you need to come to first, instead of trying to earn your way to heaven.

I'm going to hold your feet to the fire with these scriptures you're simply cherry picking and yanking out of the bible to support your unbiblical belief. Who is God talking about and why? What is the story behind what God is saying and why He said that He will put "fear of Himself into their hearts".

What is the meaning behind this scripture. I realize that you like to *play the game of Christianity*--now it's time show everyone that you actually know what you're talking about.

If you want to accuse me and live in my rep box insulting me---it's time you get real honest with not only everyone else here, but yourself as well.

[lilymc]

I'm going to hold your feet to the fire with these scriptures you're simply cherry picking and yanking out of the bible to support you unbiblical belief. Who is God talking about and why? What is the story behind what God is saying and why He said that He will put "fear of Himself into their hearts".

What is the meaning behind this scripture. I realize that you like to *play the game of Christianity*--now it's time show everyone that you actually know what you're talking about.

I answered your question, so please check your pride and your heart that is hard toward the Gospel of Grace. My post was to Traditional Conservative. The time in my day that God gives me is precious, so I prefer to speak with people who are not completely closed-minded and hard-hearted.

[Terry1]

I answered your question, so please check your pride and your heart that is hard toward the Gospel of Grace. My post was to Traditional Conservative. The time in my day that God gives me is precious, so I prefer to speak with people who are not completely closed-minded and hard-hearted.

You answered nothing--as usual. You have no clue as to what you posted and the only reason you posted that scripture was because it seemed to you that it supported your belief--which it does not--not anywhere close.

Explain in detail what that scripture means. Even if you have to Google it, which I'm sure you do.

[lilymc]

You answered nothing--as usual. You have no clue as to what you posted and the only reason you posted that scripture was because it seemed to you that it supported your belief--which it does not--not anywhere close.

Explain in detail what that scripture means. Even if you have to Google it, which I'm sure you do.

Are you denying that it's about the New and Everlasting Covenant?

If so, why don't you go ahead and share what your religion teaches. That seems to be what you want to do.

[Terry1]

Are you denying that it's about the New and Everlasting Covenant?

If so, why don't you go ahead and share what your religion teaches. That seems to be what you want to do.

Explain the scripture in detail Lily so you can show everyone reading how this scripture supports your belief. What did God mean when He said He would put His fear of Himself into their hearts"--explain that Lily and how that matches up with your belief.

[lilymc]

Explain the scripture in detail Lily so you can show everyone reading how this scripture supports your belief. What did God mean when He said He would put His fear of Himself into their hearts"--explain that Lily and how that matches up with your belief.

You are not my boss. (Thank God.) As I already stated (I can see that not listening is a pattern with you) your heart is hard as rock when it comes to the simple Gospel. So I will post when God leads me to.... not when YOU demand me to.

It's true what Jesus said about wrong types of soil....

[Natural Citizen]

It's true what Jesus said about wrong types of soil....

What did he say, lilymc?

[Brett85]

Once a person has passed from death to life, that's it, you have eternal life. Not only is the bible clear that God will never leave someone who is truly His, and that He will never stop loving them, but the scriptures also state that someone who is a genuine believer (born from above) will not leave, because God makes sure of that.

"I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never turn away from doing good to them, and I will put fear of Me in their hearts so they will never again turn away from Me."

Jeremiah 32:40

So basically, people lose their free will once they become a Christian and become saved. They make the choice to accept Christ, but they can't make the choice to reject him later on. At least the Calvinists are consistent and believe that no one ever had a choice to begin with, that the concept of free will doesn't exist and God simply saved those he wanted to save.

[Terry1]

You are not my boss. (Thank God.) As I already stated (I can see that not listening is a pattern with you) your heart is hard as rock when it comes to the simple Gospel. So I will post when God leads me to.... not when YOU demand me to.

It's true what Jesus said about wrong types of soil....

You posted a scripture Jeremiah 32:40 in huge font to make a point. All I'm asking is that you make that point by explaining to me how Jeremiah 32:40 supports your belief in OSAS. Can you do this or are you going to keep attempting a distraction via personal insults?

[jmdrake]

You are not my boss. (Thank God.) As I already stated (I can see that not listening is a pattern with you) your heart is hard as rock when it comes to the simple Gospel. So I will post when God leads me to.... not when YOU demand me to.

It's true what Jesus said about wrong types of soil....

LOL. When all else fails blame the listener. I would like to see you answer this post. http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post5665899 But then again, it's easier to attack a fellow Christian on how she has rejected the gospel merely because she doesn't subscribe to your OSAS version of it. It's much harder to talk to someone who has rejected the faith altogether isn't it?

[lilymc]

What did he say, lilymc?

What I had in mind was Luke 8:4-15.

[Natural Citizen]

What I had in mind was Luke 8:4-15.

Okay. I'll check out Luke 8:4-5 then. Thank you, lilymc.

[lilymc]

LOL. When all else fails blame the listener. I would like to see you answer this post. http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post5665899 But then again, it's easier to attack a fellow Christian on how she has rejected the gospel merely because she doesn't subscribe to your OSAS version of it. It's much harder to talk to someone who has rejected the faith altogether isn't it?

That post wasn't to me, and it was getting into other topics. But if I have time later, I'll reply. As for Terry, it's not about rejecting OSAS. (There are many Christians who don't believe in OSAS). She believes in an entirely different Gospel, and last night she proved to a few of us that she is trusting in herself for salvation.

She also completely lied about my view, on the other thread. I can deal with a lot of different faults in people (because none of us are perfect, and I'm definitely not). But dishonesty and complete closed-mindedness is not something I feel like dealing with right now, on my day off.... or in general.

[Kevin007]

Well, you can certainly lose it if you decide to choose to no longer believe, if you come out and say that you reject Christ and no longer believe in what he did for you on the cross.

pigs could fly too...

[Terry1]

That post wasn't to me, and it was getting into other topics. But if I have time later, I'll reply. As for Terry, it's not about rejecting OSAS. (There are many Christians who don't believe in OSAS). She believes in an entirely different Gospel, and last night she proved to a few of us that she is trusting in herself for salvation.

She also completely lied about my view, on the other thread. I can deal with a lot of different faults in people (because none of us are perfect, and I'm definitely not). But dishonesty and complete closed-mindedness is not something I feel like dealing with right now, on my day off.... or in general.

I could easily say that you've lied about my position as well--but this is what you believe and I understand that--so in such a case--you're not a liar, you're simply believing a lie yourself. I wouldn't expect you to understand this either. It's hard to be angry with someone you know can't or won't help themselves. I pity you more than anything else.

[Kevin007]

I could easily say that you've lied about my position as well--but this is what you believe and I understand that--so in such a case--you're not a liar, you're simply believing a lie yourself. I wouldn't expect you to understand this either. It's hard to be angry with someone you know can't or won't help themselves. I pity you more than anything else.

Terry- the way you feel about us/our view of salvation is the way (maybe more) we feel you have been lied to about yours. Do you understand?

[Terry1]

Terry- the way you feel about us/our view of salvation is the way (maybe more) we feel you have been lied to about yours. Do you understand?

Yes, I certainly do indeed, but the fact remains that none of you have been able to successfully explain how the scriptures you use to support your belief actually support them. As in "faith alone" justifies and those scriptures you all posted you couldn't justify that didn't exist in the Bible at all. Lily added words to the Bible that do not exist. Also Lily has just posted another one (Jeremiah 32:40)--which again--she managed to throw a tantrum of personal insults to avoid having to answer that one as well.

So--what are you left with here? How do you expect anyone else to support something that you can not biblically support yourself and why would anyone persist in a belief that can not be supported biblically anyway?

Then when neither one of you could find "faith alone justifies" in the bible--I was accused of playing mind and word games by you and Lily.

[Kevin007]

Yes, I certainly do indeed, but the fact remains that none of you have been able to successfully explain how the scriptures you use to support your belief actually support them. As in "faith alone" justifies and those scriptures you all posted you couldn't justify that didn't exist in the Bible at all. Lily added words to the Bible that do not exist. Also Lily has just posted another one (Jeremiah 32:40)--which again--she managed to throw a tantrum of personal insults to avoid having to answer that one as well.

So--what are you left with here? How do you expect anyone else to support something that you can not biblically support yourself and why would anyone persist in a belief that can not be supported biblically anyway?

Then when neither one of you could find "faith alone justifies" in the bible--I was accused of playing mind and word games by you and Lily.

there were about 100 I listed but all you did was attack the source. You do understand that the Bible was the source, right? If you like we can take them one by one and go back and forth.. up to you.

[lilymc]

Terry, that is another distortion of the truth. Over the last few weeks, on various threads, we have explained these things ad nauseam. Over, and over. You simply didn't like what we said, so now you're trying to claim we never supported our views. BS.

Your mind/heart is completely closed, it's as simple as that.

[Kevin007]

Yes, I certainly do indeed, but the fact remains that none of you have been able to successfully explain how the scriptures you use to support your belief actually support them. As in "faith alone" justifies and those scriptures you all posted you couldn't justify that didn't exist in the Bible at all. Lily added words to the Bible that do not exist. Also Lily has just posted another one (Jeremiah 32:40)--which again--she managed to throw a tantrum of personal insults to avoid having to answer that one as well.

So--what are you left with here? How do you expect anyone else to support something that you can not biblically support yourself and why would anyone persist in a belief that can not be supported biblically anyway?

Then when neither one of you could find "faith alone justifies" in the bible--I was accused of playing mind and word games by you and Lily.

you can't find it like you cant find catholic church, eo church, the rapture, the trinity etc.. Its not about finding it in one verse even. It is the overall idea we are saved by God's grace and nothing of ourselves.