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Thread: How does one lose their salvation?

  1. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    I don't necessarily disagree with you but its not "clear". There is debate over whether one can remarry after one's partner commits adultery, and there is debate over whether someone who gets illegitimately divorced and then remarried is now in a legitimate relationship.
    What is clear is that Herodius was not legally divorced under Jewish law so the appeal TN_Vol made to that story is invalid.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.



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  3. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    But does God categorize them as those things? Or does He reckon them righteous, with the righteousness of Christ, given to them by faith and not works?

    Notice the next verse:


    Notice that it doesn't say, "And such were some of you. But then you stopped sinning."
    Notice that it doesn't say "And such were some of you. But then you kept on committing the same habitual sins without any change or growth or remorse whatsoever." What is your understanding of the word "Sanctified"? We are not saved by faith and works but by a faith that works. If the faith never makes any change in the believers life whatsoever, is it faith?
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  4. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Notice that it doesn't say "And such were some of you. But then you kept on committing the same habitual sins without any change or growth or remorse whatsoever." What is your understanding of the word "Sanctified"? We are not saved by faith and works but by a faith that works. If the faith never makes any change in the believers life whatsoever, is it faith?
    Sanctified means set apart.

    I agree that we are saved by a faith that works. But the works are not a condition for salvation. My point was that 1 Corinthians doesn't make God's reckoning of someone as righteous to be contingent on their achievement of that righteousness in practice.

    Notice the list of sins is not just some especially bad sins. It runs the gamut. The day someone stops ever doing any of them is the day they stop sinning completely. But in God's eyes, that perfect righteousness already belongs to everyone who has faith in Jesus Christ.

  5. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Sanctified means set apart.
    Well that's one definition. Here are all of them.

    https://net.bible.org/#!bible/1+Corinthians+6
    1) to render or acknowledge, or to be venerable or hallow 2) to separate from profane things and dedicate to God 2a) consecrate things to God 2b) dedicate people to God 3) to purify 3a) to cleanse externally 3b) to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin 3c) to purify internally by renewing of the soul

    Notice that one of the definitions is "to purify internally by the renewing of the soul". God doesn't seek merely to save us and set us apart. He works inside us to change us. All of that is sanctification.

    I agree that we are saved by a faith that works. But the works are not a condition for salvation. My point was that 1 Corinthians doesn't make God's reckoning of someone as righteous to be contingent on their achievement of that righteousness in practice.

    Notice the list of sins is not just some especially bad sins. It runs the gamut. The day someone stops ever doing any of them is the day they stop sinning completely. But in God's eyes, that perfect righteousness already belongs to everyone who has faith in Jesus Christ.
    Ummmm....that makes no sense. You're saying that someone who quits fornicating necessarily stops sinning altogether? That's a provably false statement.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  6. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Well that's one definition. Here are all of them.

    https://net.bible.org/#!bible/1+Corinthians+6
    1) to render or acknowledge, or to be venerable or hallow 2) to separate from profane things and dedicate to God 2a) consecrate things to God 2b) dedicate people to God 3) to purify 3a) to cleanse externally 3b) to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin 3c) to purify internally by renewing of the soul

    Notice that one of the definitions is "to purify internally by the renewing of the soul". God doesn't seek merely to save us and set us apart. He works inside us to change us. All of that is sanctification.



    Ummmm....that makes no sense. You're saying that someone who quits fornicating necessarily stops sinning altogether? That's a provably false statement.
    I believe erowe is saying we are perfect, through Christ and His imputed righteousness. We are white as snow in God's eyes even if we sin because Jesus died for our sins.
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

  7. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Well that's one definition. Here are all of them.

    https://net.bible.org/#!bible/1+Corinthians+6
    1) to render or acknowledge, or to be venerable or hallow 2) to separate from profane things and dedicate to God 2a) consecrate things to God 2b) dedicate people to God 3) to purify 3a) to cleanse externally 3b) to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin 3c) to purify internally by renewing of the soul

    Notice that one of the definitions is "to purify internally by the renewing of the soul". God doesn't seek merely to save us and set us apart. He works inside us to change us. All of that is sanctification.
    That's good that you're looking at all the meanings of sanctify. The word is used for various different things in the Bible. Sometimes it refers to a lifelong process that God brings believers through making them more and more holy. Sometimes it refers to God's setting apart of the elect in eternity past before they believed. In 1 Corinthians 6 it refers to the once for all event that happens when the believer believes and is justified.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Ummmm....that makes no sense. You're saying that someone who quits fornicating necessarily stops sinning altogether? That's a provably false statement.
    No. The passage doesn't just mention fornicators. Here's the list: fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, homosexuals, nor sodomites, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners. Notice also that before giving this list Paul uses the general term "unrighteous." He's not just talking about certain kinds of unrighteousness, but all kinds.

    The justification he's talking about, where people no longer are any of these things, nor any other kind of unrighteous person, is perfect justification. If he's talking about people experientially ceasing to do the things listed, then that would entail not sinning any more at all. But that's not what he's talking about. He's talking about God reckoning people as righteous, with a righteousness that they didn't attain by their own works, but rather the righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed to them.



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  9. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin007 View Post
    I believe erowe is saying we are perfect, through Christ and His imputed righteousness. We are white as snow in God's eyes even if we sin because Jesus died for our sins.
    Yes.

  10. #98
    Bible Verses About Imputed Righteousness

    Bible verses related to Imputed Righteousness from the King James Version (KJV) by Relevance

    - Sort By Book Order



    2 Corinthians 5:21 - For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    Isaiah 53:11 - He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

    Philippians 3:9 - And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

    1 Peter 2:24 - Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

    Galatians 2:16 - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    Romans 5:1 - Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

    Romans 4:3 - For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

    1 Corinthians 1:30 - But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

    Romans 5:17 - For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

    Romans 1:17 - For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

    John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Jeremiah 23:6 - In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this [is] his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

    Philippians 2:13 - For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

    Ephesians 2:9 - Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

    Galatians 2:20 - I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    Romans 4:24 - But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

    Romans 4:8 - Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

    Romans 1:16-17 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Read More...)

    Acts 16:31 - And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

    1 John 3:7 - Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

    1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    Romans 5:18 - Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

    Romans 4:5 - But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    Romans 3:26 - To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

    Romans 3:25 - Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    Romans 3:22 - Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

    Romans 3:21 - But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

    Romans 3:10 - As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

    Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/...Righteousness/

    These are just some of the many verses proving Imputed Righteousness. Made perfect because of Jesus' perfect one time sacrifice for us- those who accept Him as personal Savior.
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

  11. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin007 View Post
    Bible Verses About Imputed Righteousness

    Bible verses related to Imputed Righteousness from the King James Version (KJV) by Relevance

    - Sort By Book Order



    2 Corinthians 5:21 - For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    Isaiah 53:11 - He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

    Philippians 3:9 - And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

    1 Peter 2:24 - Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

    Galatians 2:16 - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    Romans 5:1 - Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

    Romans 4:3 - For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

    1 Corinthians 1:30 - But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

    Romans 5:17 - For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

    Romans 1:17 - For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

    John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Jeremiah 23:6 - In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this [is] his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

    Philippians 2:13 - For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

    Ephesians 2:9 - Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

    Galatians 2:20 - I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    Romans 4:24 - But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

    Romans 4:8 - Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

    Romans 1:16-17 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Read More...)

    Acts 16:31 - And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

    1 John 3:7 - Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

    1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    Romans 5:18 - Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

    Romans 4:5 - But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    Romans 3:26 - To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

    Romans 3:25 - Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    Romans 3:22 - Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

    Romans 3:21 - But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

    Romans 3:10 - As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

    Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/...Righteousness/

    These are just some of the many verses proving Imputed Righteousness. Made perfect because of Jesus' perfect one time sacrifice for us- those who accept Him as personal Savior.
    Another favorite of mine is 1 Corinthians 1:30. It always reminds me of John Bunyan's testimony as told in his, Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners.
    But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption—
    One day as I was passing into the field, this sentence fell upon my soul: “Thy righteousness is in heaven.” And with the eyes of my soul I saw Jesus at the Father’s right hand. “There,” I said, “is my righteousness!” So that wherever I was or whatever I was doing, God could not say to me, “Where is your righteousness?” For it is always right before him.

    I saw that it is not my good frame of heart that made my righteousness better, nor yet my bad frame that made my righteousness worse, for my righteousness IS Christ. Now my chains fell off indeed. My temptations fled away, and I lived sweetly at peace with God.

    Now I could look from myself to him and could reckon that all my character was like the coins a rich man carries in his pocket when all his gold is safe in a trunk at home. Oh I saw that my gold was indeed in a trunk at home, in Christ my Lord. Now Christ was all: my righteousness, sanctification, redemption.
    http://www.thegospelcoalition.org/bl...-is-in-heaven/

  12. #100
    yep, erowe- we see ourselves as sinners (as we should), but the Father sees us as perfect; just like He is looking at Jesus. Jesus' perfect life of no sin is applied directly to us- like we had never sinned. Our position in Jesus was sealed the moment we invited Him to be our Savior. Our position is permanent and unchanging with the Father.
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

  13. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin007 View Post
    I believe erowe is saying we are perfect, through Christ and His imputed righteousness. We are white as snow in God's eyes even if we sin because Jesus died for our sins.
    Sounds like he (you?) are conflating justification with sanctification. Or am I misreading you? Justification is the result of God looking at you as if you were sinless even though you aren't. Sanctification is the process of God delivering you from the power of sin.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  14. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    That's good that you're looking at all the meanings of sanctify. The word is used for various different things in the Bible. Sometimes it refers to a lifelong process that God brings believers through making them more and more holy. Sometimes it refers to God's setting apart of the elect in eternity past before they believed. In 1 Corinthians 6 it refers to the once for all event that happens when the believer believes and is justified.
    So you believe that some members of Paul's audience were still actively practicing idolatry? Sorry but that's simply not true.

    No. The passage doesn't just mention fornicators. Here's the list: fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, homosexuals, nor sodomites, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners. Notice also that before giving this list Paul uses the general term "unrighteous." He's not just talking about certain kinds of unrighteousness, but all kinds.
    Okay. Now you're just being silly. Again you said "the day someone stops doing any of them is the day that stop sinning altogether." The word "any" means "any one" on the list. I picked one from the list. Someone could stop doing "any one" thing listed without that person having stopped sinning altogether. No theology required to reach that conclusion. Just understanding of basic English.

    The justification he's talking about, where people no longer are any of these things, nor any other kind of unrighteous person, is perfect justification. If he's talking about people experientially ceasing to do the things listed, then that would entail not sinning any more at all. But that's not what he's talking about. He's talking about God reckoning people as righteous, with a righteousness that they didn't attain by their own works, but rather the righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed to them.
    Yep. I thought you were confusing justification with sanctification. And you just proved that you did. Note what I bolded.
    Last edited by jmdrake; 10-21-2014 at 06:06 AM.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  15. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    So you believe that some members of Paul's audience were still actively practicing idolatry? Sorry but that's simply not true.
    First of all, that wouldn't follow from what I said, since it could just be the case that some were still committed the sins of coveting, drunkenness, reviling, or any other thing that falls under the category of "unrighteousness."

    Second of all, yes, some either practiced idolatry or were at risk of being about to, or else Paul wouldn't warn them not to do it. Notice also the degree of convincing he feels the need to engage in in chapter 10. It looks to me like something he believed was going on already.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Okay. Now you're just being silly. Again you said "the day someone stops doing any of them is the day that stop sinning altogether." The word "any" means "any one" on the list. I picked one from the list. Someone could stop doing "any one" thing listed without that person having stopped sinning altogether. No theology required to reach that conclusion. Just understanding of basic English.
    Pardon my English then. The way I meant for you to take what I was saying (which it looks like you knew), was that stopping doing any of them meant not doing any of them, as in doing none of them.

    My argument stands. The degree of righteousness Paul says these people have is total sinless perfection. They are not the things he listed any more. They are not any of them. They used to be, but then something happened. And that thing that happened was that they were justified, washed, and sanctified. They are not counted among any category of sinner any more, and this is not the result of their ceasing to sin. It's a result of them being reckoned with a righteousness they didn't earn.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Yep. I thought you were confusing justification with sanctification. And you just proved that you did. Note what I bolded.
    As you correctly pointed out before, the word sanctification is used in various ways. Sometimes, such as in 1 Corinthians 6, it refers to something that happens at the same time as justification. Other times it refers to an ongoing process that follows from it. Other times it refers to something that happened in eternity past.

    The word on its own means "set apart." And there are various ways to refer to believers being set apart.

  16. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Sounds like he (you?) are conflating justification with sanctification. Or am I misreading you? Justification is the result of God looking at you as if you were sinless even though you aren't. Sanctification is the process of God delivering you from the power of sin.
    Both of those are biblical ways to use the word "sanctify."



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  18. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    First of all, that wouldn't follow from what I said, since it could just be the case that some were still committed the sins of coveting, drunkenness, reviling, or any other thing that falls under the category of "unrighteousness."

    Second of all, yes, some either practiced idolatry or were at risk of being about to, or else Paul wouldn't warn them not to do it. Notice also the degree of convincing he feels the need to engage in in chapter 10. It looks to me like something he believed was going on already.
    You are conflating someone who may at times fall into sin with someone habitually practicing it. It's what the old people used to call "living in sin". The Spirit convicts us of sin and makes it abhorrent to us. But getting out of the habit of sin often takes time.

    Pardon my English then. The way I meant for you to take what I was saying (which it looks like you knew), was that stopping doing any of them meant not doing any of them, as in doing none of them.
    No. I still don't know what you are saying. Again if I stop stealing I've stopped stealing. That doesn't mean I've stopped sinning. Now if you're going with the "He who offends in one is guilty of all" okay, but that's a different argument. Under U.S. law if you have committed one act in furtherance of a conspiracy you can be held criminally liable for anything anyone else does in furtherance of that conspiracy. But that doesn't mean you did every act. The Christian walk is supposed to make a difference in your life at some point.

    My argument stands. The degree of righteousness Paul says these people have is total sinless perfection. They are not the things he listed any more. They are not any of them. They used to be, but then something happened. And that thing that happened was that they were justified, washed, and sanctified. They are not counted among any category of sinner any more, and this is not the result of their ceasing to sin. It's a result of them being reckoned with a righteousness they didn't earn.

    As you correctly pointed out before, the word sanctification is used in various ways. Sometimes, such as in 1 Corinthians 6, it refers to something that happens at the same time as justification. Other times it refers to an ongoing process that follows from it. Other times it refers to something that happened in eternity past.
    Sure. But none of the alternate uses I gave = justified. In fact the way you are using it makes Paul sound like he's confused himself.

    "And ye were justified and washed and justified."

    The word on its own means "set apart." And there are various ways to refer to believers being set apart.
    Not in this context. But most certainly sanctified != justified, especially in this context.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  19. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin007 View Post
    honest question. I like to hear how and when someone loses it? Something so important as this there should be specific things we do to lose it? Or how many times we sin or do not repent till we lose it? When does the Spirit leave a Believer? What types of sins cause us to lose our salvation? Can we get our salvation back? Whats the difference between backsliding and losing our salvation? Would a believer know when they lose it or when they get it back? Is there any person in the bible who lost it then got it back? Will God give us a clear warning just before we could lose our salvation? Try to focus on bible verses, passages etc.. when possible.
    How can one lose their salvation?

    Answer:

    OSAS and perseverance of the saints believer (believes he's already reached heaven and can not lose his salvation):




    True Gospel believer: (believes that whatsoever he does unto the least he does unto Christ Himself)





    Last edited by Terry1; 10-21-2014 at 04:59 PM.

  20. #107
    Matthew 25: 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

    41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

    42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

    43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

    44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

    45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

    46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
    Last edited by Terry1; 10-21-2014 at 04:53 PM.

  21. #108
    James 2:

    Faith and Works


    (Genesis 15:1-7; Romans 4:1-12; Galatians 3:1-9; Hebrews 11:8-19)


    14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

    18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

  22. #109
    I think it's possible for someone to lose their salvation, but this idea that someone is somehow disqualified from being a Christian if they've been divorced and remarried just seems ridiculous. I've never seen the verse in the Bible which states that that particular sin is some kind of unforgivable sin.

  23. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    I think it's possible for someone to lose their salvation, but this idea that someone is somehow disqualified from being a Christian if they've been divorced and remarried just seems ridiculous. I've never seen the verse in the Bible which states that that particular sin is some kind of unforgivable sin.
    OK, if you believe that:

    1. All adulterers [defined as a lifestyle characteristic, not isolated instances] are unsaved

    and that

    2. All who divorce and are remarried are adulterers

    Than it would follow that

    3. All who divorce and are remarried are unsaved.

    The first premise is almost certainly true (just look at 1 Corinthians 5.) But is the second premise true? I don't think that it is. But I do see how one could argue that it is.

  24. #111
    Traditional Conservative a couple of years ago I would have believed that it would be ridiculous as well but after years of studying this issue I found myself facing what I believe is the truth. It truly is sad that churches no longer preach the permanence view of marriage anymore, well the Catholic church kinda does. I say kinda because they offer annulments in a lot of cases although to their credit they do not allow divorced and remarried persons to partake of the Eucharist because they do not feel they are under the grace of God. I don't tell divorced and remarried persons that they are going to hell but there is substantial scriptural evidence for that. Their salvation is not for me to decide, but what I would ask them is why would they chance 30 or 40 years of marriage to a non covenant spouse against an eternity in hell? I mean no one can say with absolute certainty that is not impossible based on scripture alone. I would ask you to remember that if it weren't for the strong belief that marriage is forever, til death do you part no exceptions, then the Anglican church would not have been formed. If it was the belief then why is it not the belief now. From Hebrews 13:8 we know that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. Think about all the social and emotional ills that could be fixed around the world if people once again took marriage as seriously as God intended or as society did just a mere 60 or 70 years ago. If you would like some more information feel free to ask and I'll be glad to point you in the right direction.
    I have always supported measures and principles and not men. I have acted fearless and independent and I never will regret my course. I would rather be politically buried that to be hypochriticalley immortalized.
    Davy Crockett

    Look up, get up, and don't ever give up.
    Michael Irvin

  25. #112
    I would encourage you to read Ezra chapters 9 & 10 and read about what the Jews did during that time when they disobeyed God and took other wives and had children with them.
    Last edited by TN_VOL; 10-21-2014 at 08:59 PM.
    I have always supported measures and principles and not men. I have acted fearless and independent and I never will regret my course. I would rather be politically buried that to be hypochriticalley immortalized.
    Davy Crockett

    Look up, get up, and don't ever give up.
    Michael Irvin



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  27. #113
    If you have to be perfect to be saved and make it to heaven, then what exactly is the point of even trying? Basically, you can be someone who waits until marriage to have sex, someone who gives to the poor and the needy, gives money to the church, evangelizes and brings others to Christ, and you're not going to make it to heaven because you happened to get married to a divorced person? Again, why even try?

  28. #114
    Shoot, David had hundreds of wives, committed adultery and murder even though he had hundreds of wives, and will make it to heaven, but I would go to hell if I chose to marry a divorced woman? How in the world does that make any sense at all?

    How can God not have any problem with polygamy in the Old Testament, but throw someone in hell simply because they got married to a divorced person?
    Last edited by Brett85; 10-21-2014 at 09:39 PM.

  29. #115
    Talk about salvation through works. That's a really extreme version of it.

  30. #116
    The Bible also does not teach that the first marriage between a husband and a wife remains in affect even if the husband and wife divorce and get remarried. On the contrary, the Bible teaches that if a husband and a wife get divorced and remarry someone else, it would be a complete abomination for the original married couple to get divorced from their new spouse and get remarried. God detests the idea of a man taking back his original wife to be his wife again after she has been defiled.

    Deuteronomy 24:2-4

    When she has departed from his house, and goes and becomes another man’s wife, if the latter husband detests her and writes her a certificate of divorce, puts it in her hand, and sends her out of his house, or if the latter husband dies who took her as his wife, then her former husband who divorced her must not take her back to be his wife after she has been defiled; for that is an abomination before the LORD

  31. #117
    Ok first off yes you can go back to your first spouse. Jesus specifically tells the Pharisees and disciples in Matthew 19:8 that Moses permitted divorce but he should not have. Therefore making Moses's law null and void, let me repeat we are not under Moses's law. You can be if you want but I'm going to continue eating my shrimp and BBQ. Earlier you presented the example of doing everything right but then marrying divorced woman and then suggesting that it would be unjust of God if you lost your salvation because of it. This comment made me think of the disciples in Matthew 19:10 when told if one "divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery." The disciples reply "If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry." Jesus then replies that "Not all men can accept this statement." Also keep in mind the immorality he is talking about here would have had to have taken place during the betrothal period not after they have consummated the marriage, I cover this in an earlier post in this thread. So you are not alone, even the disciples found this teaching hard, but Jesus basically said that's the way it's gonna be from now on.
    Theses link might give you a better understanding.
    http://t-cog.net/DIVORCE_AND_THE_MEANING_OF_PORNEIA.htm
    http://libcfl.com/articles/divorce.htm
    I have always supported measures and principles and not men. I have acted fearless and independent and I never will regret my course. I would rather be politically buried that to be hypochriticalley immortalized.
    Davy Crockett

    Look up, get up, and don't ever give up.
    Michael Irvin

  32. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by TN_VOL View Post
    Ok first off yes you can go back to your first spouse. Jesus specifically tells the Pharisees and disciples in Matthew 19:8 that Moses permitted divorce but he should not have. Therefore making Moses's law null and void, let me repeat we are not under Moses's law. You can be if you want but I'm going to continue eating my shrimp and BBQ. Earlier you presented the example of doing everything right but then marrying divorced woman and then suggesting that it would be unjust of God if you lost your salvation because of it. This comment made me think of the disciples in Matthew 19:10 when told if one "divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery." The disciples reply "If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry." Jesus then replies that "Not all men can accept this statement." Also keep in mind the immorality he is talking about here would have had to have taken place during the betrothal period not after they have consummated the marriage, I cover this in an earlier post in this thread. So you are not alone, even the disciples found this teaching hard, but Jesus basically said that's the way it's gonna be from now on.
    Theses link might give you a better understanding.
    http://t-cog.net/DIVORCE_AND_THE_MEANING_OF_PORNEIA.htm
    http://libcfl.com/articles/divorce.htm
    You have to look at the context of what Jesus was saying and the times in which he was saying it. He was living during a time when Jewish men were divorcing their wives for the sole purpose of getting married to someone else. That's the context and the back drop in which Jesus was speaking. We're not talking about some situation where women were getting abused by their husbands, and Jesus was telling the women that it wasn't lawful for them to get a divorce from their husband. It's within the context of Jesus speaking to Jewish men who were leaving their wives for the sole reason of marrying another woman. Jesus was saying that if you divorce your wife in order to get married to another woman, that's no different than committing adultery. It's no different than having sexual relations with a woman when you're married to your wife. Jesus was addressing an epidemic that was going on during that time when divorce was rampant and was being used as a reason for men to just dump their wives when they got tired of them and marry a new wife. Jesus said that this is unacceptable and is no different than adultery. It's important to actually look at the context of what was going on at the time. If you take Jesus' words 100% literally, without actually looking at the context of what was going on at the time, then you also have to assume that we literally have to poke our eyes out every time we look at a woman lustfully, and we literally have to drink Jesus' blood and eat his body in order to be saved.

  33. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    Talk about salvation through works. That's a really extreme version of it.
    But if works anyone is to be saved by meeting a works requirement, then that is exactly the only version by which they'll ever be saved. They have to attain perfect sinlessness, like Paul says in 1 Corinthians 6. If he's talking about righteousness that believers demonstrate by their practice, then that's the life they have to live.

    Fortunately, there exists another way to be righteous, apart from works, having the perfect sinless righteousness of Jesus imputed to you, by faith in Him.

  34. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    But if works anyone is to be saved by meeting a works requirement, then that is exactly the only version by which they'll ever be saved. They have to attain perfect sinlessness, like Paul says in 1 Corinthians 6. If he's talking about righteousness that believers demonstrate by their practice, then that's the life they have to live.

    Fortunately, there exists another way to be righteous, apart from works, having the perfect sinless righteousness of Jesus imputed to you, by faith in Him.
    Again, you are confusing "the dead law of dead works, which is the Mosaic law that Paul is referring to as something we shouldn't do, vs "good works of faith" that Paul turns right around and tells you that you should do--as well as James and the entire NT.

    The Mosaic law is a curse to those who attempt to keep that law. This is where mankind failed by ceremony and ritual perfectly and to the letter to achieve righteousness. This is a type and shadow of what was then vs what is now under the law of faith and good works, which we are most certainly instructed *to do* now under the New Covenant of grace through faith.

    This is also why the Mosaic law was placed in the side of the Ark of the Covenant as a witness against those who tried and failed to keep that law and also why the Ten Commandments of God were placed top dead center in the Ark to prove that Gods law is at the very center of His will. Everything has meaning. The mysteries unfold as we learn and grow in the word--this takes dedication to studying the word and listening to what the ancient church Fathers taught as well.



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