How does one lose their salvation?

[Terry1]

What's your basis for saying that that English version is a good translation of that Greek? You can see that the Greek has krima. And krima does not mean damnation.

ETA: Here it says that the English version they use there is just the King James.
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek...nt/default.asp

So it's not a modern source for translating kirma as "damnation." It's the same 17th century source you already used.

Strong's Concordance
Cognate: 2917 kríma (a neuter noun derived from 2919 /krínō, "to distinguish, judge") – judgment, emphasizing its result (note the -ma suffix). This is everlasting damnation (torment) for the unredeemed (the usual implication of 2319 /theostygḗs) – or the eternal benefits that come from the Lord's judgment in favor of the redeemed (cf. Rev 20:4). See 2919 (krinō). 2917 /kríma ("the results of a judgment") dramatically links cause-to-effect. Indeed, every decision (action) we make carries inevitable eternal results (cf. Ecc 12;14).

[erowe1]

Which translations are more acceptable to you then?

Which translation of the word krima is more acceptable? The translations "judgement" or "condemnation" are both more acceptable than "damnation" or "doom."

[erowe1]

Cognate: 2917 kríma (a neuter noun derived from 2919 /krínō, "to distinguish, judge") – judgment, emphasizing its result (note the -ma suffix). This is everlasting damnation (torment) for the unredeemed (the usual implication of 2319 /theostygḗs) – or the eternal benefits that come from the Lord's judgment in favor of the redeemed (cf. Rev 20:4). See 2919 (krinō). 2917 /kríma ("the results of a judgment") dramatically links cause-to-effect. Indeed, every decision (action) we make carries inevitable eternal results (cf. Ecc 12;14).

What's that from? What's the basis for saying that it's everlasting damnation? Notice that whatever that quote comes from, it's not just giving a definition or literal translation, but drawing theological conclusions that one could only draw when the word is used in a larger context and not from the word by itself.

[Terry1]

What's that from? What's the basis for saying that it's everlasting damnation?

http://biblehub.com/strongs/greek/2917.htm

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance 2917. krima
condemnation, damnation, judgment.
From krino; a decision (the function or the effect, for or against ("crime")) -- avenge, condemned, condemnation, damnation, + go to law, judgment.

see GREEK krino

[Terry1]

What's that from? What's the basis for saying that it's everlasting damnation? Notice that whatever that quote comes from, it's not just giving a definition or literal translation, but drawing theological conclusions that one could only draw when the word is used in a larger context and not from the word by itself.

You're not debating that with me, but rather with multiple reputable sources. I can't help you with that.

[erowe1]

http://biblehub.com/strongs/greek/2917.htm

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance 2917. krima
condemnation, damnation, judgment.
From krino; a decision (the function or the effect, for or against ("crime")) -- avenge, condemned, condemnation, damnation, + go to law, judgment.

see GREEK krino

Notice that this source just keeps it down to the translations and not the theological extrapolations. And it also says condemnation and judgment, which are exactly what I said. Also, Strong's Concordance is from 1890. So it also is a fairly old source. My earlier question was about translations from within the past 100 years. In older English, "damnation" just meant "condemnation," and not specifically eternal punishment.

Most importantly, Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 11 what the krima he's talking about entails. And he specifically says that it's physical sickness and death.

[erowe1]

You're not debating that with me, but rather with multiple reputable sources. I can't help you with that.

I'm not. You haven't found a single source that's more recent than 100 years old that uses the word "damnation." And, again, in older English, "damnation" just meant "condemnation." So far all the sources, including the ones you've provided, support everything I've said.

[Terry1]

Notice that this source just keeps it down to the translations and not the theological extrapolations. And it also says condemnation and judgment, which are exactly what I said. Also, Strong's Concordance is from 1890. So it also is a fairly old source. My earlier question was about translations from within the past 100 years.

The earliest source I gave you was from the Byzantine era Christian Fathers and the word kríma is used in that translation. Translated into the English and KJV means damnation or judgment from the Greek to English--either one which indicates the same thing and is translated as such.

Cognate: 2917 kríma (a neuter noun derived from 2919 /krínō, "to distinguish, judge") – judgment, emphasizing its result (note the -ma suffix). This is everlasting damnation (torment) for the unredeemed (the usual implication of 2319 /theostygḗs) –

"Cognate" means having the same root meaning.

[erowe1]

The earliest source I gave you was from the Byzantine era Christian Fathers and the word kríma is used in that translation.

Correct. And krima just means judgment.

The only English sources that translate it as "damnation" are very old ones, as your own research has shown.

In modern usage, damnation is more specific than judgment. And the kind of judgment Paul refers to in 1 Corinthians 11 does not include anything in the afterlife.

[Terry1]

Correct. And krima just means judgment.

The only English sources that translate it as "damnation" are very old ones, as your own research has shown.

erowe--"cognate" means that these words have the same root meaning. Kirma=judgment=damnation=condemnation=unredeemed. You'll have to argue this with the scholars who researched and arrived at these conclusions based upon their Greek to English translations.

[erowe1]

erowe--"cognate" means that these words have the same root meaning. Kirma=judgment=damnation=condemnation=unredeemed. You'll have to argue this with the scholars who researched and arrived at these conclusions based upon their Greek to English translations.

But the scholars all support everything I've said. The only source you gave that used the word "unredeemed" was that theological one that you still haven't said where you got it.

[Terry1]

But the scholars all support everything I've said.

LOL--not if they're saying that krima means the same thing as damnation they aren't.

[erowe1]

LOL--not if they're saying that krima means the same thing as damnation they aren't.

The only ones that used the word "damnation" were all very old sources. In older English "damnation" referred to any and all condemnation.

Notice that, using your own links, every English version that is less than 100 years old uses some other translation of that word.

[Terry1]

The only ones that used the word "damnation" were all very old sources. In older English "damnation" referred to any and all condemnation.

Can you find another reputable source that defends your position on the word "krima"? If so--then you should post that so we can compare that with the sources I've already provided.

[erowe1]

Can you find another reputable source that defends your position on the word "krima"? If so--then you should post that so we can compare that with the sources I've already provided.

I've already provided links. Have you checked them?

Check all the English versions of 1 Corinthians 11:29 here:
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/e...thians%2011:29

Notice, once again, that the only ones that say "damnation" are the very old ones. None of the modern ones do, out of dozens and dozens.

Here's the Liddell-Scott-Jones Greek lexicon, which is the standard. This is certainy, by far, a more reputable source of Greek lexicography than the Strong's Concordance is.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...try%3Dkri%2Fma

κρίμα , ατος, τό, (κρίνω)
A.decision, judgement, Chrysipp.Stoic.3.58, Plb.23.1.12, LXX Ps.118(119).7, al., Ep.Rom.11.33, Arr.Epict.2.15.8; “περί τινος” M.Ant.8.47; verdict on a literary work, Phld.Po.5.23.
2. decree, resolution, “δήμου” D.H.4.12; “ἱερομνημόνων” BCH27.107, cf. IGRom.3.58,66 (Prusias).
3. legal decision, PPetr.3p.56 (iii B. C.), SIG826Eii 29 (Delph., ii B. C.); decision of arbitrators, ib. 421.44 (Thermum, iii B. C.); esp. sentence, condemnation, LXX De.21.22, al., Ev.Marc.12.40, etc.
II. matter for judgement, question, “οὐκ εὔκριτον τὸ κρῖμα” A.Supp.397.
2. law-suit, LXX Ex.18.22, 1 Ep.Cor.6.7.
III. = κρίσις, judging, judgement, Ev.Jo.9.39, Act.Ap.24.25, etc. [ῖ in A.l.c. (nisi leg. κρεῖμα ): ι^ in post-classical poetry; freq. written κρίμα in codd.]
Henry George Liddell. Robert Scott. A Greek-English Lexicon. revised and augmented throughout by. Sir Henry Stuart Jones. with the assistance of. Roderick McKenzie. Oxford. Clarendon Press. 1940.

[Terry1]

I've already provided links. Have you checked them?

Check all the English versions of 1 Corinthians 11:29 here:
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/e...thians%2011:29

Notice, once again, that the only ones that say "damnation" are the very old ones. None of the modern ones do, out of dozens and dozens.

Here's the Liddell-Scott-Jones Greek lexicon, which is the standard. This is certainy, by far, a more reputable source of Greek lexicography than the Strong's Concordance is.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...try%3Dkri%2Fma

Either way, the one thing you'd have to agree on is that there is a severe "condemnation" and "Judgment" upon those who do not properly discern Holy Communion. The word "damnation" implies eternal judgment--as to whether the punishment for improperly discerning Holy Communion is eternal or not is up to the reader to interpret those scripture as they're meant to be understood. This is why the Eucharist is held in such sacred trust--because they do properly discern the body and the blood of Christ in that sacrament.

[erowe1]

Either way, the one thing you'd have to agree on is that there is a severe "condemnation" and "Judgment" upon those who do not properly discern Holy Communion.

Yes.

The word "damnation" implies eternal judgment

And that's precisely the problem with using that word. The word krima does not imply eternal judgment, but rather, just judgment of any kind.

as to whether the punishment for improperly discerning Holy Communion is eternal or not is up to the reader to interpret those scripture as they're meant to be understood.

And the reader should listen to Paul, when Paul tells us what the nature of the judgment is in verse 30 of that passage.

[Terry1]

Yes.


And that's precisely the problem with using that word. The word krima does not imply eternal judgment, but rather, just judgment of any kind.



And the reader should listen to Paul, when Paul tells us what the nature of the judgment is in verse 30 of that passage.

I can agree with that.

[jmdrake]

Can I ask you and Kevin then--just what do you think is supposed to happen spiritually if we don't discern the blood and body of Christ properly at communion? Gods words says that you're eating and drinking damnation unto yourself. Explain then please if you will just how one can be damned by improper use a nothing more than a metaphor?

I guess St. Clement is damned then. Because he said it's a metaphor. I find it interesting that failing to make your point Biblicaly you fall back on church tradition. Then when church tradition fails you then fall back on your interpretation of the Bible. Tell me this. Have you figured out yet what Philippians 2:13 means? And if the bread and wine are metaphors and/or symbols of Christ's body and blood then shouldn't that be enough to treat them with respect? My Bible is written on paper. I respect it as the Word of God. Should I feel free to treat it as a common book because it's really just ink on paper?

[Terry1]

I guess St. Clement is damned then. Because he said it's a metaphor. I find it interesting that failing to make your point Biblicaly you fall back on church tradition. Then when church tradition fails you then fall back on your interpretation of the Bible. Tell me this. Have you figured out yet what Philippians 2:13 means? And if the bread and wine are metaphors and/or symbols of Christ's body and blood then shouldn't that be enough to treat them with respect? My Bible is written on paper. I respect it as the Word of God. Should I feel free to treat it as a common book because it's really just ink on paper?

We don't venerate the saints because they were perfect or because they were always 100% correct in every jot and tittle of everything they ever said or wrote. We venerate them because of their service, love, devotion and dedication towards Christ and the church.

We're meant to ask questions and question everything and compare that with scripture. I think erowe1 did a good job of clearing up the difference between being damned and judged or placed under condemnation. There are some conclusions one just can't argue with.

I still think that you and Kevin don't clearly understand the depth of what St. Clement was saying regarding Holy Communion.

[jmdrake]

We don't venerate the saints because they were perfect or because they were always 100% correct in every jot and tittle of everything they ever said or wrote. We venerate them because of their service, love, devotion and dedication towards Christ and the church.

Great! I agree. That's why I believe Sola Scriptura. I hope you can join me in that belief.

[Terry1]

Great! I agree. That's why I believe Sola Scriptura. I hope you can join me in that belief.

No--I would never subscribe to sola scripture, it's entirely unbiblical. If sola scripture were true, the same churches that endorse it wouldn't have the Gospel of Jesus Christ screwed up.

[heavenlyboy34]

Great! I agree. That's why I believe Sola Scriptura. I hope you can join me in that belief.

Non-sequitur.

[Kevin007]

Terry, Hb- do you two believe that Jesus paid for all your sins at the Cross?

[jmdrake]

No--I would never subscribe to sola scripture, it's entirely unbiblical. If sola scripture were true, the same churches that endorse it wouldn't have the Gospel of Jesus Christ screwed up.

Okay. Expound on your belief then. You believe that the Bible is infallible right? And you don't believe that the Saints are infallible though you think they give guidance. That's different from sola-scriptura because.....?

[jmdrake]

Non-sequitur.