James vs Paul (side by side chart)

[Influenza]

The phrase "associate with" covers a lot of things. Why would no true prophet do that?

No King is any more "divine" or equatable with God than your average Pleb. Applying similar titles to God and the Babylonian King is doing just that, which is what I meant by associating with. then I don't see how a prophet from God could have such a messed up theology to the point that he was polytheistic.

[RJB]

Your post looks to me like an abbreviation of exactly what the OP says.

If this is really what you believe, that's encouraging.

As I come to understand the Orthodox faith, I see the true folly of the schism and the schisms that later resulted from it. I'll post a more indepth thread in the future, but basically the Roman Catholic Church defined everything legalistically with indulgences, penance, etc. The reformers when they rebelled instead of going the other way toward Orthodoxy they made it even more legalistic by making up loopholes and clauses that didn't exist to avoid having to live like Christians.

I think most Christians know this in their hearts when they talk about the relation with Jesus. It's not faith alone, but rather faith, hope, and (the greatest of these) charity.

The Chapter in James is not about works salvation and definitely not about faith alone, it's about loving your brethren.

[Kevin007]

As I come to understand the Orthodox faith, I see the true folly of the schism and the schisms that later resulted from it. I'll post a more indepth thread in the future, but basically the Roman Catholic Church defined everything legalistically with indulgences, penance, etc. The reformers when they rebelled instead of going the other way toward Orthodoxy they made it even more legalistic by making up loopholes and clauses that didn't exist to avoid having to live like Christians.



I think most Christians know this in their hearts when they talk about the relation with Jesus. It's not faith alone, but rather faith, hope, and (the greatest of these) charity.

The Chapter in James is not about works salvation and definitely not about faith alone, it's about loving your brethren.

Paul is speaking of being Justified before God. James about before men. If you don't have the first one, the second doesn't matter. I would rather be justified before God than man any day. Other men didn't die on the cross for me, Jesus did.

[erowe1]

No King is any more "divine" or equatable with God than your average Pleb.

I agree. And so does Daniel.

Applying similar titles to God and the Babylonian King is doing just that

Not always. In the case of Daniel it does the exact opposite. Have you ever read the book?

[erowe1]

As I come to understand the Orthodox faith, I see the true folly of the schism and the schisms that later resulted from it. I'll post a more indepth thread in the future, but basically the Roman Catholic Church defined everything legalistically with indulgences, penance, etc. The reformers when they rebelled instead of going the other way toward Orthodoxy they made it even more legalistic by making up loopholes and clauses that didn't exist to avoid having to live like Christians.

I think most Christians know this in their hearts when they talk about the relation with Jesus. It's not faith alone, but rather faith, hope, and (the greatest of these) charity.

The Chapter in James is not about works salvation and definitely not about faith alone, it's about loving your brethren.

What you're saying about James sounds like the same thing most evangelicals would say.

But do you really think that's what the Reformers were up to? Coming up with loopholes to avoid living like Christians? Where do you get that?

A legalistic way of looking at salvation isn't the only way to look at it. It doesn't capture the whole picture. But neither does any other single model. And the legalistic model isn't wrong. It's just partial, just like all the others. It is biblical and apostolic after all.

[RJB]

Paul is speaking of being Justified before God. James about before men. If you don't have the first one, the second doesn't matter. I would rather be justified before God than man any day. Other men didn't die on the cross for me, Jesus did.

We are the bride of Christ Kevin. Are you married to your wife with Faith alone. That's absurd. I can't have faith alone in my wife with out love and hope. I can't have love alone for her with out Faith and hope. I can't hope alone for a future without love and faith.

You have so defined your your relationship with God with legal loopholes that you can read a chapter that says to care for your brethren and says we are NOT saved by faith alone and read it to say that we are. I find that sad.

BTW, no surprise, Calvin was a lawyer.

[Ronin Truth]

How? Where's the book that Jesus wrote?

Is a gospel required to be a book? I think not. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/gospel

http://uuhouston.org/files/The_Jefferson_Bible.pdf

[Kevin007]

We are the bride of Christ Kevin. Are you married to your wife with Faith alone. That's absurd. I can't have faith alone in my wife with out love and hope. I can't have love alone for her with out Faith and hope. I can't hope alone for a future without love and faith.

You have so defined your your relationship with God with legal loopholes that you can read a chapter that says to care for your brethren and says we are NOT saved by faith alone and read it to say that we are. I find that sad.

BTW, no surprise, Calvin was a lawyer.

the legal loopholes are those who add legalism to His free gift. Jesus alone saves. If Jesus alone doesn't save then there was no need for Him to die on the cross at Calvary. We cannot take away our own sin, nor live up to the 2 commandments in the NT.Any one sin separates us from God. Without Jesus no one goes to Heaven, no one gets saved. There is not any deed, good work or act that can get us saved or keep us saved.

[erowe1]

Is a gospel required to be a book? I think not. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/gospel

http://uuhouston.org/files/The_Jefferson_Bible.pdf

If we can't get Jesus's words from a book he wrote, and we can't get them from a book someone else wrote about him, then what's left?

All those words in that Jefferson Bible were taken from the books of the real Bible, books written by people like Paul. The Gospel about Jesus recorded by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John is the same Gospel about Jesus as the one preached by Paul and the other apostles and brothers of Jesus (see 1 Corinthians 15:1-11).

[erowe1]

We are the bride of Christ Kevin. Are you married to your wife with Faith alone. That's absurd. I can't have faith alone in my wife with out love and hope. I can't have love alone for her with out Faith and hope. I can't hope alone for a future without love and faith.

Are you suggesting that the doctrine of justification by faith alone without works says that you can? If so, then you completely misrepresent it.

[Kevin007]

No man can mix law with grace or good works with grace.


http://www.letusreason.org/7thad7.htm

[Ronin Truth]

If we can't get Jesus's words from a book he wrote, and we can't get them from a book someone else wrote about him, then what's left?

All those words in that Jefferson Bible were taken from the books of the real Bible, books written by people like Paul. The Gospel about Jesus recorded by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John is the same Gospel about Jesus as the one preached by Paul and the other apostles and brothers of Jesus (see 1 Corinthians 15:1-11).

"All the good in Christianity can be traced to Jesus, all the bad to Paul." - Franz Overbeck, Protestant Theologian

[erowe1]

"All the good in Christianity can be traced to Jesus, all the bad to Paul." - Franz Overbeck, Protestant Theologian

That just leads back to my question. Where can you find this good in Christianity that comes from Jesus himself and isn't mediated to us by Paul and his cohorts?

[RJB]

Jesus alone saves. If Jesus alone doesn't save then there was no need for Him to die on the cross at Calvary. We cannot take away our own sin, nor live up to the 2 commandments in the NT.Any one sin separates us from God. Without Jesus no one goes to Heaven, no one gets saved. There is not any deed, good work or act that can get us saved or keep us saved.

This is the crux of western thinking. You are thinking in an false legal axiom. Your logic says that if a person doesn't believe in Faith Alone, he doesn't believe in that Jesus death and resurrection save us. Again that's not true.

(No where are those two words together in the bible but James 2:24 BTW)

[RJB]

Are you suggesting that the doctrine of justification by faith alone without works says that you can? If so, then you completely misrepresent it.

What does "we are saved by faith alone" mean?

[Kevin007]

This is the crux of western thinking. You are thinking in an false legal axiom. Your logic says that if a person doesn't believe in Faith Alone, he doesn't believe in that Jesus death and resurrection save us. Again that's not true.

(No where are those two words together in the bible but James 2:24 BTW)

you cannot mix law and grace. You can't find the word trinity either....

[erowe1]

What does "we are saved by faith alone" mean?

It means that faith, an internal orientation toward God that is seen by God and not men which is inseparable from hope and love, is all that is required in order to become declared righteous by God.

Any outward acts (i.e. works) that will be produced by that inward orientation toward God are not the same thing as faith itself, and are not the means by which righteousness in God's sight is attained, but rather the result of it. Similar works as those performed by people with genuine saving faith can be performed by people who lack faith, but those works cannot make them righteous in God's sight. Therefore, no person or organization on earth has the power to dictate to people that they must perform certain acts and participate in certain ceremonies, the legitimacy of which those people and organizations control, in order to be righteous in the sight of God.

[Kevin007]

It means that faith, an internal orientation toward God that is seen by God and not men which is inseparable from hope and love, is all that is required in order to become declared righteous by God.

Any outward acts (i.e. works) that will be produced by that inward orientation toward God are not the same thing as faith itself, and are not the means by which righteousness in God's sight is attained, but rather the result of it. Similar works as those performed by people with genuine saving faith can be performed by people who lack faith, but those works cannot make them righteous in God's sight. Therefore, no person or organization on earth has the power to dictate to people that they must perform certain acts and participate in certain ceremonies, the legitimacy of which those people and organizations control, in order to be righteous in the sight of God.

well said friend.

[RJB]

What you're saying about James sounds like the same thing most evangelicals would say.

Some are right sometimes.

But do you really think that's what the Reformers were up to? Coming up with loopholes to avoid living like Christians? Where do you get that?

That was a bit harsh on my part, but so many times I've seen some troubling statements from people defending this. Kevin once said Jesus told us to do something only to show that it's impossible. One of them is to love God with our heart mind and soul and our neighbor as ourselves. I believe, that you once said that this is impossible. But martyrs prove that we can do just that with God's help.

Faith in God is believing that God can transform us into such people. I believe that you and I agree on this.

A legalistic way of looking at salvation isn't the only way to look at it. It doesn't capture the whole picture. But neither does any other single model. And the legalistic model isn't wrong. It's just partial, just like all the others. It is biblical and apostolic after all.

This may be true, but to invent a concept such as Faith alone when those words only occurs once in the bible and it says "not by...," is wrong.

[Kevin007]

faith alone in Jesus for your salvation is the only correct teaching.

[Kevin007]

http://carm.org/are-we-saved-faith-a...need-works-too

[erowe1]

This may be true, but to invent a concept such as Faith alone when those words only occurs once in the bible and it says "not by...," is wrong.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

True or false? Everyone who believes in Jesus in the sense meant by the word "believe" in John 3:16 has eternal life.

True or false? There do not exist people who have this kind of faith, but who do not have eternal life because they lack something else that must be added to it.

[Terry1]

I wasn't messing with the word of God. I was messing with the chart someone made interpreting the word of God. Why would that be a problem?

Yeah--that chart was giving it's own interpretation there and it really didn't serve any good purpose.

[lilymc]

It means that faith, an internal orientation toward God that is seen by God and not men which is inseparable from hope and love, is all that is required in order to become declared righteous by God.

Any outward acts (i.e. works) that will be produced by that inward orientation toward God are not the same thing as faith itself, and are not the means by which righteousness in God's sight is attained, but rather the result of it. Similar works as those performed by people with genuine saving faith can be performed by people who lack faith, but those works cannot make them righteous in God's sight. Therefore, no person or organization on earth has the power to dictate to people that they must perform certain acts and participate in certain ceremonies, the legitimacy of which those people and organizations control, in order to be righteous in the sight of God.

Very well said erowe.

I think the entire Old Testament is one huge teaching that people can't measure up on their own... we all need the Savior. This is why God wants us to trust HIM and Him alone. We need to surrender and die to our old self and receive new life in Christ.

I would say that it's not HOW much faith one has, but where they place their faith. If we put our faith in our works, we are showing that we still think we can earn our salvation.

You don't earn a free gift, you receive it.

And since salvation is a gift - not a subject of merit - it cannot be lost by demerit. The only thing we can lose is rewards and future privileges.

I'm beginning to realize that IF a person doesn't understand those things when they first come to Christ or at some point after that, then they will inevitably have doubts about their salvation, live under the yoke of slavery, or - in the worst case - never actually get saved in the first place if they didn't put their trust in what Jesus did, but in their own performance.

God doesn't want us to live in doubt, not knowing if we are saved until judgement day to see if we "made the cut." He wants us to have assurance. The following passage states just that:

Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.


I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

1 John 5:10-13

[Terry1]

Very well said erowe.

I think the entire Old Testament is one huge teaching that people can't measure up on their own... we all need the Savior. This is why God wants us to trust HIM and Him alone. We need to surrender and die to our old self and receive new life in Christ.

I would say that it's not HOW much faith one has, but where they place their faith. If we put our faith in our works, we are showing that we still think we can earn our salvation.

You don't earn a free gift, you receive it.

And since salvation is a gift - not a subject of merit - it cannot be lost by demerit. The only thing we can lose is rewards and future privileges.

I'm beginning to realize that IF a person doesn't understand those things when they first come to Christ or at some point after that, then they will inevitably have doubts about their salvation, live under the yoke of slavery, or - in the worst case - never actually get saved in the first place if they didn't put their trust in what Jesus did, but in their own performance.

God doesn't want us to live in doubt, not knowing if we are saved until judgement day to see if we "made the cut." He wants us to have assurance. The following passage states just that:

Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.


I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

1 John 5:10-13

The gift can be rejected and is by many because they lack the knowledge of God that comes as a result of walking in the Spirit. Someone can give you a car or a bike, but if you don't know how to use that gift--what good is it?

Hosea 4:

6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

[Influenza]

Not always. In the case of Daniel it does the exact opposite. Have you ever read the book?

No, and if that's the case then your post was very misleading

[Ronin Truth]

That just leads back to my question. Where can you find this good in Christianity that comes from Jesus himself and isn't mediated to us by Paul and his cohorts?

You can take that up with Franz, if he's still available.

Some folks tend to be institution junkies, others are anti-institution, by nature. I tend to be the latter. Almost all institutions just tend to give me the creeps.

"By their fruits, ye shall know them."

I'll go along with TJ on this one.

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology." ~ TJ

[Ronin Truth]

I wasn't messing with the word of God. I was messing with the chart someone made interpreting the word of God. Why would that be a problem?

Oh OK, no problem, just checking, never mind.

[lilymc]

The gift can be rejected and is by many because they lack the knowledge of God that comes as a result of walking in the Spirit. Someone can give you a car or a bike, but if you don't know how to use that gift--what good is it?

Hosea 4:

6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

I agree that the gift can be rejected. Many people in the world reject it. However, once a person has truly received that gift, it's not returnable. And once a person becomes a son or daughter of God and has passed from death to life, it's a one time thing. You can't hop back and forth from saved to unsaved to saved to unsaved.

As was posted on another thread, this passage clearly states that nothing can separate us from the love of God, including ourselves!

Notice the bold.

For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:38-39

[RJB]

I'm going to tone it down a lot. I find when we get to the heart of the matter I agree with you a lot more than you would guess.

If this is your personal faith, it's very similar to my own.

It means that faith, an internal orientation toward God that is seen by God and not men which is inseparable from hope and love, is all that is required in order to become declared righteous by God.

That may be your outlook, but that is not what the doctrine Faith Alone means or says. That's you prettying it up for me. We could have faith to move mountains, but without love, we are nothing. This doctrine was purely a protest against the Roman Catholic Church and really has no other biblical or historical foundation.

Any outward acts (i.e. works) that will be produced by that inward orientation toward God are not the same thing as faith itself, and are not the means by which righteousness in God's sight is attained, but rather the result of it.

To an extent, I agree, but sometimes it takes a lot of effort to do a good deed or resist temptation. This is why we are commanded to do good works-- Jesus wasn't wasting his breath in telling us to love one another and God-- That's where prayer, almsgiving, and fasting come into play to be more Christ-like, but I agree the works in and of themselves don't save us.

Similar works as those performed by people with genuine saving faith can be performed by people who lack faith, but those works cannot make them righteous in God's sight.

Agreed.

Therefore, no person or organization on earth has the power to dictate to people that they must perform certain acts and participate in certain ceremonies, the legitimacy of which those people and organizations control, in order to be righteous in the sight of God.

I pretty much agree, but again this was a protest against Rome. The fasting thread is a great example of what a dangerous doctrine this is. We fast because there are so many examples people fasting from Jesus to St. Paul. You learn to die to self. Yet the whole thread was hijacked by people claiming we were trying to fast our way into heaven. That was False But there are a lot of knee jerk reactions like that and not just on the forum, but this was one of the saddest for me. Fasting with prayer is a great way to follow in his footsteps.

I disagree with the Roman Catholic doctrine that eating meat on Fridays in Lent is a very grave sin and requires a trip to confession and saying a few prescribed prayers for penance. In Orthodoxy, we have more rigorous and more frequent fasting but when you fail you pick yourself up, pray and continue. The same with the sacraments. They are here to bring us closer to God. In reaction to Rome, many since the reformation have completely turned against them. Turning marriage from a sacrament into a government action is just one of the many devastating effects it has had.