Can your good works save you?

[fisharmor]

The only church where I ever heard it said that people who do good things go to heaven was protestant.

[Kevin007]

By saying then what, I am clearly assuming one does get the first part right.

lots of people think they are serving God, but unless they have Jesus as their personal Savior, they are not.

[Kevin007]

The only church where I ever heard it said that people who do good things go to heaven was protestant.

so Protestants say satanists and atheists go to Heaven?

[Brett85]

It would be man-based if someone were to attempt to earn their salvation by works from the start.

Exactly. But what I'm saying is that faith and works go hand in hand. Once someone has true faith and becomes saved, a true saving faith will manifest itself by doing good works. Our works are the evidence of our faith. If we have no good works at all, then our faith is dead, and it isn't a saving faith. Our works are how we demonstrate that we have true faith in what Christ did for us on the cross. Otherwise we're simply giving lip service to God, which he simply won't accept. The Bible teaches that you will know them by their fruit, that every true Christian produces fruit. (Good works) The Bible doesn't teach that works are something completely different from faith. The Bible teaches that faith and works go hand in hand, that you can't have one without the other.

[Kevin007]

Why exactly would works be man based? The Bible is clear that the works that we do come from God.

Ephesians 2: 10-11

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

does it? Are you sure?

[Crashland]

so Protestants say satanists and atheists go to Heaven?

no, more like satanists and atheists are incapable of doing good things. or they aren't *really* good things if they don't do them for the right reason. or, something like that.

[Kevin007]

Exactly. But what I'm saying is that faith and works go hand in hand. Once someone has true faith and becomes saved, a true saving faith will manifest itself by doing good works. Our works are the evidence of our faith. If we have no good works at all, then our faith is dead, and it isn't a saving faith. Our works are how we demonstrate that we have true faith in what Christ did for us on the cross. Otherwise we're simply giving lip service to God, which he simply won't accept. The Bible teaches that you will know them by their fruit, that every true Christian produces fruit. (Good works) The Bible doesn't teach that works are something completely different from faith. The Bible teaches that faith and works go hand in hand, that you can't have one without the other.

here is the kicker- many people have FAITH in their WORKS but Not Jesus.

[Brett85]

what do you mean all works are from God? Are you serious here? Satanist's do good works. Even Believers do "good" works, yet God burns them up at the JSOC/BEMA.... showing that although we thought they were good , they were not because we did them for selfish reasons. Regardless the important point is you cannot mix grace with works.

By "we" I meant "Christians" The Bible is clear that the good works that we as Christians do were predestined by God, as it says in Ephesians 2: 10-11. You seem to be a fan of Ephesians 2: 8-9 but not Ephesians 2: 10-11.

[Brett85]

here is the kicker- many people have FAITH in their WORKS but Not Jesus.

Anyone who has good works but doesn't have faith in Jesus won't make it to heaven.

[Kevin007]

Exactly. But what I'm saying is that faith and works go hand in hand. Once someone has true faith and becomes saved, a true saving faith will manifest itself by doing good works. Our works are the evidence of our faith. If we have no good works at all, then our faith is dead, and it isn't a saving faith. Our works are how we demonstrate that we have true faith in what Christ did for us on the cross. Otherwise we're simply giving lip service to God, which he simply won't accept. The Bible teaches that you will know them by their fruit, that every true Christian produces fruit. (Good works) The Bible doesn't teach that works are something completely different from faith. The Bible teaches that faith and works go hand in hand, that you can't have one without the other.

agreed. Salvation happens before any good works occur. Then our works start (sanctification)- a life long process.

[Brett85]

agreed. Salvation happens before any good works occur. Then our works start (sanctification)- a life long process.

Ok. But the ironic thing is that I think JMdrake and Terry1 would say the same thing, but yet you're accusing them of believing that we're saved by works.

[Crashland]

Nope, it's not possible. Which of course means we have no free will and God is a capricious being who causes some of his creatures to reject him, and then throws them into eternal flame.

And it also means that the Godward condition of salvation is, in fact, absolutely nothing other than happening to be one of the lucky chosen ones, since it is involuntary either way.

[lilymc]

The only church where I ever heard it said that people who do good things go to heaven was protestant.

No "protestant" (if by protestant you mean non-Catholic) church I've ever been to has said that.

All the churches I've ever been to (with the exception of the Catholic church) teach that you must be born again.

[fr33]

Well, my google-fu isn't quite mastery level, but this is the very first five hits for "catholic doctrine on good works".


http://www.catholic.com/quickquestio...tain-salvation


[/FONT][/COLOR]http://www.catholic.com/tracts/reward-and-merit


http://catholicism.org/faith-and-good-works.html


http://www.aboutcatholics.com/belief...of-good-works/


http://www.thecatholicthing.org/colu...-approach.html[COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana]

Is confession of sins to god not a good thing? What about penance? If serving penance is not an effort to do good then what is it?

Is following the 10 commandments a good thing?

[fisharmor]

so Protestants say satanists and atheists go to Heaven?

I can't speak for Protestants, because there's no such thing as "protestant" doctrine. Each individual "protestant" is free to believe whatever he wishes, and this is tolerated - in some cases, encouraged - by protestant "churches".

I was merely driving home the point: the first 5 google hits about Roman Catholic doctrine say the opposite of what this thread claims about good works and salvation, and the only place where I have heard that people who do good things go to heaven, was a protestant church.
At my grandmother's funeral. October 6 2006. Which I know because I found the card in the suit I finally wore again, to my Chrismation last weekend. I took the reminder of that ridiculous and depressing proceeding as a sign that I had made the correct decision.

[Kevin007]

Anyone who has good works but doesn't have faith in Jesus won't make it to heaven.

yep.

[Kevin007]

Is confession of sins to god not a good thing? What about penance? If serving penance is not an effort to do good then what is it?

Is following the 10 commandments a good thing?

it sure is. Key word being God, not confession to a Priest. We go stright to God through Jesus, our only intercessor.

[Kevin007]

Ok. But the ironic thing is that I think JMdrake and Terry1 would say the same thing, but yet you're accusing them of believing that we're saved by works.

they think you can lose your salvation and that works are needed FOR salvation. Big dif. And that some ways we contribute to our salvation by our works.

[Kevin007]

And it also means that the Godward condition of salvation is, in fact, absolutely nothing other than happening to be one of the lucky chosen ones, since it is involuntary either way.

nope. Jesus died for every person. But accepting His free gift is our decision. He doesn't force anybody. Keep in mind, He didn't have to save ANY PERSON.

[heavenlyboy34]

We cannot mix law and grace without nullifying grace

We cannot add a law or rule on top of God’s grace without nullifying the gospel of His grace. Our foundation must be grace alone, not a mixture of grace and works. http://www.julieg.info/tithing/wecannotmixlaw.html This is the age-old problem of grace versus works, which was the root cause for the Reformation in the 17th century. Grace means His unmerited favour – meaning his unearned and undeserved favour. We need another Reformation in the Church today, because although we know we can’t earn God’s forgiveness through buying indulgences, we still think we can earn his favour for material and financial blessings by paying tithes and sowing offerings! However, it’s not because of any of our own actions that we receive our provision or prosper; it’s solely because of the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ in suffering our poverty on the cross. For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich. (2 Cor 8:9) This action alone released all of heaven’s riches over those who would simply believe in Him. And my God shall supply all your need according to his glorious riches in Christ Jesus. (Phil 4:19). Unmerited favour cannot credit works done to obtain favour, otherwise God’s blessing is no longer unmerited but earned, like a wage (Rom 4:4). Hence Paul, writing to Christians, says, 'you who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace' (Gal 5:4). Although Paul was writing here about the rite of circumcision specifically, the principle is the same – that when we rely on observance of any external regulation to qualify ourselves to receive anything from God, we nullify all of God’s grace - his unmerited favour - toward us (Gal 2:21, 5:4), and Christ becomes of no value to us at all (Gal 5:2). Adding only one kind of works alone (such as tithing) calls into question the sufficiency of Christ’s work on the cross, and thereby changes our message to another gospel (Gal 1:6-9)—a different, altered gospel of a different kind altogether. To the apostle Paul, if it’s not a gospel of pure grace, it’s ‘no gospel at all,’ and Christ ceases to be of any value to us (Gal 5:2-3).

From James 2:

Faith without works is dead

BTW, why do you quote Paul so much? That's a very Catholic/Orthodox thing to do, bro. I'm fairly sure that folks of your religious persuasion are supposed to be sticking to the synoptic gospels for most things.

[Kevin007]

From James 2:

BTW, why do you quote Paul so much? That's a very Catholic/Orthodox thing to do, bro. I'm fairly sure that folks of your religious persuasion are supposed to be sticking to the synoptic gospels for most things.

Is that all you got? One verse out of context?

[fr33]

it sure is. Key word being God, not confession to a Priest. We go stright to God through Jesus, our only intercessor.

I was talking to someone defending catholics. not you.

[heavenlyboy34]

they think you can lose your salvation and that works are needed FOR salvation. Big dif. And that some ways we contribute to our salvation by our works.

You're misrepresenting them. Though salvation is a lifelong process and can be lost, works alone do not save. Works are a "consequence" of faith (as some say...different authors use different but similar terms).

[heavenlyboy34]

Is that all you got? One verse out of context?

No. Paul says a lot about it-more than I have time to type out-as do a number of saints. "Works" is part of the "Pauline Triangle" analysis device used by some non-denominational and Protestants I've listened to.

ETA: Is a bunch of quotes from Pauline epistles all you got? You're rather Roman Catholic-sh that way if so.

[Kevin007]

No. Paul says a lot about it-more than I have time to type out-as do a number of saints. "Works" is part of the "Pauline Triangle" analysis device used by some non-denominational and Protestants I've listened to.

ETA: Is a bunch of quotes from Pauline epistles all you got? You're rather Roman Catholic-sh that way if so.

Paul is all about grace, not works so how is that RC?

[Kevin007]

You're misrepresenting them. Though salvation is a lifelong process and can be lost, works alone do not save. Works are a "consequence" of faith (as some say...different authors use different but similar terms).

Sanctification is a lifelong process. Do you know what sanctification is? If salvation is a process, it isn't of grace and not a free gift. The Bible doesn't say Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved after a lifelong process.

[heavenlyboy34]

Sanctification is a lifelong process. Do you know what sanctification is? If salvation is a process, it isn't of grace and not a free gift. The Bible doesn't say Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved after a lifelong process.

Do you know Paul calls the process of salvation "running the race"? It's another way of saying "a lifelong process" in the language and rhetoric of his time.

[heavenlyboy34]

Paul is all about grace, not works so how is that RC?

That's a gross over-simplification of Paul.

[Kevin007]

running the race is about Christian service. Running the race is a metaphor. Do you believe that your works save you, or Jesus?

[lilymc]

I think that maybe a lot of the confusion comes from misunderstandings on wording and definitions.

I think it's important that everyone is on the same page when it comes to definitions, or else we're never going to get anywhere.

Some people use the word salvation as a synonym for justification. Because once you're justified, that's when you're saved from the penalty of sin.

However, there are 3 main facets of salvation. And maybe the confusion comes because some people call all three of these together "salvation" and some people (those who rejects OSAS) wrongly believe that one can be justified then later "lose their salvation" and never be sanctified and glorified. But these 3 things go together.


Salvation

Justification - This is what happens in an instant. This is when our sins are forgiven, and the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us. (2 Cor 5:21, Romans 4:5-8) and we are made right with God. Justification is separation from the penalty of sin.


Sanctification - This is what is a life-long process. It's about spiritual growth, and becoming more holy and more spiritually mature. Sanctification is the separation from the power of sin.


Glorification - This happens in the future, when Jesus returns and we get our imperishable bodies. Glorification is the separation from the presence of sin.


Chuck Missler explains it all here. Please watch this video, this is part 1 of 2 parts.