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What does it being 'proper' have to do with anything?
As if the CIA and DIA etc. would suddenly get their HUMINT correct.
As if you could just kill your way to peace.
There are an estimated 30,000 ISIS fighters. More joining daily. Probably a third or less are dedicated but regardless, it is an unfeasible option. I am certain you aware of the deck of cards that never ended.
For what, too? A couple of rather questionable beheadings of men? Men who knew the dangers of traveling to that region? To 'save' the Yazidi?
I'm getting rather apathetic and tired of explaining time after time the issues with these foreign policy proposals. Your's is better than most for whatever that's worth. It "almost" worked in Afghanistan, as in, didn't $#@!ing work at all (whether it was officially titled and 'authorized' being irrelevant to the point of murdering people based on whimsical intelligence reports).
I don't want to pay for it. That's just a minor inconvenience, I assume?
I personally have no doubt that he could. I had a good friend who worked with them as a driver / medic in the division that moved VIP's around in Iraq. He died of cancer a couple years ago which he claimed he got from depleted uranium castings or something. Anyway, he told me the team he was on was incredibly efficient and brutal. They were all former special forces and CIA spooks. They were lightening fast and instilled shock and fear everywhere that they went. And they boasted that they never lost a client.
If I'm not mistaken, they (Blackwater or Xe) are the same asshats who went in and disarmed the law abiding American citizens in N.O. during the Katrina fiasco. That's probably how the feds circumvented the second amendment I bet. My friend wasn't working with them here in the states as far as I know. At least he never mentioned it and I never thought to ask him.
Last edited by navy-vet; 09-22-2014 at 09:07 PM.
How about the difference between WW2 and Korea/Vietnam?
If all of this were above ground and public, like, say if it had Congressional Letters, then the CIA would be a lot more conscious about frelling up because it won't get buried like when it's all kept secret.As if the CIA and DIA etc. would suddenly get their HUMINT correct.
All of the killing/torture crap that is going on, is going on because it is underground in the black market. Above ground in the sunlight there would be a lot less killing. Killing a potential intelligence asset makes no sense in any universe.As if you could just kill your way to peace.
I totally disagree. 212 years ago, 14 Marines held down a city of 60,000 until they begged for mercy. Do it right we can eradicate ISIS in 10 weeks.There are an estimated 30,000 ISIS fighters. More joining daily. Probably a third or less are dedicated but regardless, it is an unfeasible option. I am certain you aware of the deck of cards that never ended.
I'm not the one claiming that they are a threat. I merely state that if they WERE a threat, they could be addressed effectively and Constitutionally short of war. When asked, I explained how.For what, too? A couple of rather questionable beheadings of men?
Do you always assume that people discussing best strategies in the event of a presumed threat, are somehow automatically in favor of whatever screwball intervention-of-the-day this administration has cooked up?Men who knew the dangers of traveling to that region? To 'save' the Yazidi?
I'm getting rather apathetic and tired of explaining time after time the issues with these foreign policy proposals.
The last time we did this was in 1803. In an area that would later become known as "Libya." I have heard of no Letters of Marque and Reprisal issued since then, and I have certainly heard of no Reprisal Task Forces being formed amongst the Marines. The primary reason there are killings and torture and such, is because they are not doing what I am suggesting.Your's is better than most for whatever that's worth. It "almost" worked in Afghanistan, as in, didn't $#@!ing work at all (whether it was officially titled and 'authorized' being irrelevant to the point of murdering people based on whimsical intelligence reports).
Paying for a billion in Marque, once, is one hell of a lot better than paying a trillion per war, three times in a row.I don't want to pay for it. That's just a minor inconvenience, I assume?
I will respond when I get home from work. There are a couple things I'd disagree with.
Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
Ron Paul 2004
Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
It's all about Freedom
Say what?
Are you referring to Letters of Marque and Reprisal? (again)
Do you even understand the concept?
You do not pay anyone for letters of Marque.. The holder of the Letter may hire Mercs.. But not the Government that issues them.
And it absolutely is not any military,, and money exchanged or there is absolutely no money paid by the Government.
Letters of Marque are for a Private individual (that can prove a specific loss) and allows them to recoup that loss. (legalized piracy)
There is a lot of confusion since RP mentioned this old Law of the Sea. And a lot of misunderstanding of what exactly it is (and is not).
Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
Ron Paul 2004
Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
It's all about Freedom
Pretty sure I studied in pretty great depth Thomas Jefferson and the actions of the US Marines in the First Barbary War. Among other things, a Congressional liaison officer used marque funds to hire a local mercenary army to hold the Capitol city of Derna under siege. That's probably not what you were thinking of under 'Marque' either eh?
I'm not afraid of them at all.
They are not a physical threat to me. I give loved ones advice not to move to places like NYC or other heavily populated areas where a terrorist act is most likely to happen. Not following that advice might have some consequences. All crimes are more likely to happen in those places.
They could possibly threaten the economy that I'm forced to participate in since the empire has interwoven us all together. But they don't pose as much of a threat to the economy when compared with the slavemasters in DC.
If you want to live in an open and free society, then you must understand that $#@! can happen. It happens even more often in this unfree society we find ourselves in due to things like blowback.
Not by international Laws of the Sea.
And the legitimate use of the Navy is to protect shipping.. But that is under the Flag of the Nation.
Marque and Reprisal is,, Piracy,, but piracy sanctioned by one Nation against others.
Hunting Pirates is the job of the Navy. and though I agree with TJ's use against the Barbary Pirates,, he was walking a fine line,, and his Act of War was mitigated by diplomacy. (and yes,, the invasion was an act of War)
Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
Ron Paul 2004
Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
It's all about Freedom
Our Constitution does not bind us to the international laws of the sea, it binds us to the Law of Nations.
Marque and Reprisal is Constitutionally sanctioned martial action against non-state entities, whether they be pirates or terrorists is irrelevant.And the legitimate use of the Navy is to protect shipping.. But that is under the Flag of the Nation.
Marque and Reprisal is,, Piracy,, but piracy sanctioned by one Nation against others.
You can't commit war against anything but a nation. You can't go to war against a substance, a plant, a tactic, or even a group of people. There are other terms for that, like "attempted eradication," but they are not war. WAR is between two nations. IS, despite their delusion of grandeur name, is NOT a state, they are not a nation, so there cannot be 'war' with IS, not can war be declared.Hunting Pirates is the job of the Navy. and though I agree with TJ's use against the Barbary Pirates,, he was walking a fine line,, and his Act of War was mitigated by diplomacy. (and yes,, the invasion was an act of War)
IS is a Non-State entity, against which the Framers created a specific defense in Marque and Reprisal.
Rather than waxing mockingly how I don't comprehend the doctrine of Marque and Reprisal, you should spend the time coming up with jokes instead gaining a deeper understanding of the doctrine.
I agree with most of what you've said (and I can put my voluntarism aside long enough to work with the constitutional arguments) but I think this is just wrong. WWII was SIGNIFICANTLY worse than either Korea or Vietnam all the way around. Less pointless, yes, but far more dead.How about the difference between WW2 and Korea/Vietnam?
Absolutely false. On September 11th, 2001, a handful of individual criminals destroyed two crappy old buildings and killed about as many people as die in car accidents in an average two months. Hardly the destruction of an empire. Our own government has put us on our knees and is destroying our liberty, and we were WELL on the way to that end long before 9/11. 9/11 was an excuse for the REAL enemy to tighten the noose.
The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.
"Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron
"Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton
It is constitutionally sanctioned piracy.
Marque and Reprisal is piracy.. just "legalized" piracy.
http://thelawdictionary.org/marque-a...al-letters-of/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_marqueThese words, "marque" and "reprisal," are frequently used as synonymous, but, taken In their strict etymological sense, the latter signifies a "taking in return ;" the former, the passing the frontiers (marches) in order to such taking. Letters of marque and reprisal are grantable, by the law of nations, whenever the subjects of one state are oppressed and injured by those of another, and justice is denied by that state to which the oppressor belongs; and the party to whom these letters are granted may then seize the bodies or the goods of the subjects of the state to which the offender belongs, until satisfaction be made, wherever they happen to be found. Reprisals are to be granted only in case of a clear and open denial of justice. At the present day, in consequence partly of treaties and partly of the practice of nations, the making of reprisals is confined to the seizure of commercial property on the high seas by public cruisers, or by private cruisers specially authorized thereto.
I first came across it,, while studying and researching in the prison Law library in the 80s. It is almost unheard of,, and has not been used since the War of 1812.The phrase referred to "a licen[c]e granted by a sovereign to a subject, authorizing him to make reprisals on the subjects of a hostile state for injuries alleged to have been done to him by the enemy's army."
I was surprised when Ron mentioned it,, because I had heard no one speak of this obscure law ever before.
I had actually considered filing for it,, in a more mercenary time.
Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
Ron Paul 2004
Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
It's all about Freedom
I'll take the actions of President Thomas Jefferson over the opinion of some dusty law student who spent too long getting indoctrinated. I suspect that President Thomas Jefferson knew more about how America is suppose to run than Junior Compiler for a law dictionary, but hey, that's just my opinion lol
It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds. -Samuel Adams
Sure, the Louisiana Purchase was not actually authorized by the Constitution. Jefferson had wanted to amend the Constitution first, but the deadline for the sale was approaching too quickly to make that practicable. Faced with the same situation I would have first gone to the state governors and legislatures and found out their willingness to amend the Constitution for the purchase, and if everything was overwhelmingly green, given there was not enough time to do the amendment first, do the purchase first and then finalize the Amendment. It would have been 'wrong' but less wrong than what Jefferson did with the Louisiana Purchase. His instincts were right, of course, that it was a good purchase. he should have found a better way that was less violative of the Constitution, however.
It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds. -Samuel Adams
Jefferson had people complaining about Constitutional adherence WHILE he was instituting those policies. What's telling to me is that he had people complaining about the Constitutionality of the Louisiana Purchase while it was impending, even though it was almost universally considered to be a beneficial purchase. However, there is almost nothing contemporary with his administration, regarding the Constitutionality of his application of M&R in the Barbary "war." A big part of my conclusion that the Jeffersonian Doctrine of Marque and Reprisal (as demonstrated against the Barbary Pirates) is in line with the original intent of the Framers, is the deafening silence whereby nobody ever managed to complain about it. During an era when the actual Framers still lived. If that was not Madison's intent when he drafted that section of the Constitution, then why didn't Madison step up and say "this is wrong?" They weren't afraid to call other stuff wrong, but not this one? I don't buy it.
I believe that the Jeffersonian Doctrine M&R is fully in line with original intent, as witnessed by the total acceptance of the originators themselves.
Also, these other ideas (from elsewhere) that M&R is 'just' legalized piracy; that premise does not even remotely resemble the siege of Derna in Tripoli, which we have already established as a proper example of M&R. That fact simply does not fit the premise of "bounty only" systems. There is Marque, sure, but there is also Reprisal. M&R is way more than just bounties for heads.
Another notion from elsewhere, that M&R is only fit to fight piracy... What do you think terrorism is? Terrorism IS piracy. Ideological piracy. It's the right tool for the job.
Provided that 'the job' is not so much articulated myth and vapors, of course.
Oh, I totally agree. And I don't know enough about M & R and its history to really dig into it, but what you are saying sounds correct. My point was just that it isn't automatically constitutional just because Jefferson did it. That nobody complained is a stronger argument.
One of the majormost purposes of this site, is to effect political change. That is the primary reason why I am here. I am here to change the way America does business, so that goal will govern my language and labors. I do understand that grows wearisome to some people.
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