The Constitution: The God That Failed (To Liberate Us From Big Government)

[Deborah K]

A business plan, a to-do list and a contract are all voluntary. The Constitution is not voluntary. It is unreasonable to expect people to follow a document that they never agreed to in the first place.

No one points a gun at the people's representatives when they vow to adhere to the Constitution.

With that said, when do you believe people stopped following the Constitution? George Washington started the ball rolling with his actions during the Whiskey Rebellions. It took only about four years before people stopped following the Constitution, as written. That's not a great track record

Yes, I alluded to that already in earlier posts. It's a high standard, that even the Founders couldn't abide by. But that doesn't speak to anything other than the common man's inability to refrain from corruption - Dr. Paul notwithstanding.

[heavenlyboy34]

Do you mean to imply that it never works in practice? Nothing is foolproof, not even voluntarism.

Yes, it never works in practice. You can see this by poking your figurative finger at any point in 230+ years of Constitution history you choose. I reckon it could work in very, very small egalitarian societies cut off from the rest of the world. These people would have to have a common history and subjective value system. The more complicated any sort of system becomes, the less stable it becomes.
WRT Voluntaryism, they understand the imperfections in human nature-hence the various models of justice systems.

[Deborah K]

Yes, it never works in practice. You can see this by poking your figurative finger at any point in 230+ years of Constitution history you choose. I reckon it could work in very, very small egalitarian societies cut off from the rest of the world. These people would have to have a common history and subjective value system. The more complicated any sort of system becomes, the less stable it becomes.
WRT Voluntaryism, they understand the imperfections in human nature-hence the various models of justice systems.

I don't believe the Constitution is really that "complicated". Some of the amendments are ridiculous though. I just think it's pointless to blame a document for all our ills. Like Dr. Paul states - it all really boils down to what a person believes the role of government ought to be.

[HVACTech]

Yes, it never works in practice. You can see this by poking your figurative finger at any point in 230+ years of Constitution history you choose. I reckon it could work in very, very small egalitarian societies cut off from the rest of the world. These people would have to have a common history and subjective value system. The more complicated any sort of system becomes, the less stable it becomes.
WRT Voluntaryism, they understand the imperfections in human nature-hence the various models of justice systems.

what role does our constitution play in our Republic?
can you answer this simple question? methinks NOT.

The more complicated any sort of system becomes, the less stable it becomes.

I hate it when that happens..() is my question too complex for you?

[familydog]

No one points a gun at the people's representatives when they vow to adhere to the Constitution.



Yes, I alluded to that already in earlier posts. It's a high standard, that even the Founders couldn't abide by. But that doesn't speak to anything other than the common man's inability to refrain from corruption - Dr. Paul notwithstanding.

The Constitution is not voluntary. That is not debatable. An involuntary agreement is immoral and impossible to enforce.

You are correct. The common man is unable to refrain from corruption. That means two things: 1) the Constitution can never work since the common man will always outnumber those who wish to abide by it. 2) the common man can't be trusted to vote since they will only vote for others who are also corrupt.

[NIU Students for Liberty]

No one points a gun at the people's representatives when they vow to adhere to the Constitution.

Except a gun is pointed at the people who belong to those "representatives".

[HVACTech]

Except a gun is pointed at the people who belong to those "representatives".

hello, same question for you.

what role does our constitution play in our Republic?

[fr33]

what role does our constitution play in our Republic?

Almost none and "our republic" doesn't function like a republic.

[Origanalist]

hello, same question for you.

I'll answer that. It plays only the role our rulers allow it to play.

[Origanalist]

Almost none and "our republic" doesn't not function like a republic.

You beat me to it.

[HVACTech]

Almost none and "our republic" doesn't not function like a republic.

bingo. we have a winner.
in a Republic. (as opposed to a Democracy)
there is such a thing as the "rule of law" ours WAS directed at one thing and ONE thing only.

[fr33]

That's why it's slightly annoying when people say, "Our country is not a democracy. It's a republic!"

No it really isn't. It was supposed to be but that got thrown out the window.

[Origanalist]

[HVACTech]

That's why it's slightly annoying when people say, "Our country is not a democracy. It's a republic!"

No it really isn't. It was supposed to be but that got thrown out the window.

the democratic process, was but one of the checks and balances. friend.

[Ronin Truth]

the democratic process, was but one of the checks and balances. friend.

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." -- Winston Churchill

"Democracy is the road to socialism." -- Karl Marx

"Democracy is indispensable to socialism." -- Vladimir Lenin
"The goal of socialism is communism." -- Vladimir Lenin

"If men are good, you don't need government; if men are evil or ambivalent, you don't dare have one." -- Bob LeFevre

[idiom]

Yes, it never works in practice. You can see this by poking your figurative finger at any point in 230+ years of Constitution history you choose. I reckon it could work in very, very small egalitarian societies cut off from the rest of the world. These people would have to have a common history and subjective value system. The more complicated any sort of system becomes, the less stable it becomes.
WRT Voluntaryism, they understand the imperfections in human nature-hence the various models of justice systems.

This is the closest anyone has come to addressing why New Zealand is doing so well without a 'Constitution' put together by all wise founding fathers.

[idiom]

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." -- Winston Churchill

"Democracy is the road to socialism." -- Karl Marx

"Democracy is indispensable to socialism." -- Vladimir Lenin
"The goal of socialism is communism." -- Vladimir Lenin

"If men are good, you don't need government; if men are evil or ambivalent, you don't dare have one." -- Bob LeFevre

Winston was super upper class and had general contempt for humanity.

Marx was conflating socialism with a classless society.

Lenin was in reality not a fan of democracy. Watch what they do, not what they say.

And Bob, "If men are good then you don't need written contracts, and if they are evil or ambivalent, you don't dare have them". FTFY Bob.

[Ronin Truth]

Winston was super upper class and had general contempt for humanity.

Marx was conflating socialism with a classless society.

Lenin was in reality not a fan of democracy. Watch what they do, not what they say.

And Bob, "If men are good then you don't need written contracts, and if they are evil or ambivalent, you don't dare have them". FTFY Bob.

Thanks anyway, but I much prefer the original LeFevre quote, BEFORE you broke it.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. It twarn't broke.

[idiom]

Thanks anyway, but I much prefer the original LeFevre quote, BEFORE you broke it.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. It twarn't broke.

I was just pointing out that it is trite.

[Ronin Truth]

I was just pointing out that it is trite.

Who died and then who elected you official lexicon monitor and judge?

The last time I checked, "truth" always trumps "trite", by at least a country mile.

I'm just pointing that out.

[LibertyEagle]

[NIU Students for Liberty]

Why should I protect something that was designed to restrict individual freedoms in the first place?

[Vanguard101]

Why should I protect something that was designed to restrict individual freedoms in the first place?

Your statement has nothing to do with his statement.

[HVACTech]

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." -- Winston Churchill

"Democracy is the road to socialism." -- Karl Marx

"Democracy is indispensable to socialism." -- Vladimir Lenin
"The goal of socialism is communism." -- Vladimir Lenin

"If men are good, you don't need government; if men are evil or ambivalent, you don't dare have one." -- Bob LeFevre

ya know, the last time I checked, the democratic process was NOT the same thing as a democracy.

[HVACTech]

how many on this thread, are aware that the constitution does NOT apply to them? that it has absolutely NOTHING to do with the "people"?

yes, I understand that it has been null and void since (at least) the new deal. is that a reason to throw it in the woods?

[NIU Students for Liberty]

Your statement has nothing to do with his statement.

It has everything to do with his statement and what social contract theory defenders here have been arguing throughout this thread: "The constitution isn't flawed, it's the people!"

The Constitution isn't some magical how-to guide for running a peaceful, free society that has been corrupted by politicians. The Articles of Confederation was replaced by the Constitution in order to allow the State to function under what a minority of lawyers and politicians saw fit.

[HVACTech]

The Constitution isn't some magical how-to guide for running a peaceful, free society that has been corrupted by politicians. The Articles of Confederation was replaced by the Constitution in order to allow the State to function under what a minority of lawyers and politicians saw fit.

so, we can agree as to what it is NOT. how about what it is?

what was it's intended purpose? hold on, mebbe we should agree on WTF it is first?

[NIU Students for Liberty]

I understand that it has been null and void since (at least) the new deal. is that a reason to throw it in the woods?

This myth of an American republic did not suddenly end in the 1930s. Slavery, conscription, restricted "free" speech (quite an oxymoron), the income tax, and prohibition were all legal and considered constitutional under the nostalgic/romanticized United States that preceded FDR.

[Ronin Truth]

ya know, the last time I checked, the democratic process was NOT the same thing as a democracy.

Do they both involve voting and the majority wins (rules)? If not, then what significant differences do you have in mind? Where did you last check?

[HVACTech]

Quote Originally Posted by HVACTech View Post
I understand that it has been null and void since (at least) the new deal. is that a reason to throw it in the woods?
This myth of an American republic did not suddenly end in the 1930s. Slavery, conscription, restricted "free" speech (quite an oxymoron), the income tax, and prohibition were all legal and considered constitutional under the nostalgic/romanticized United States that preceded FDR.

Quote Originally Posted by HVACTech View Post
ya know, the last time I checked, the democratic process was NOT the same thing as a democracy.
Do they both involve voting and the majority wins (rules)? If not, then what significant differences do you have in mind? Where did you last check?

ya know what? both a heat pump and a gas furnace have well, "gas" in them.
AC and DC are both types of electricity.
how did I become a master of a vocation that cannot be mastered?
a firm understanding of the basics.

yes, even the founders themselves had trouble adhering to the "piece of paper" they created.
"prohibition" required an amendment. as did the income tax.
vestiges of the original intent remained. or such would not be so.