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Thread: No man can snatch them out of my hand

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin007 View Post
    you just made my point. You wouldn't know, would you. God wants you to KNOW, OBVIOUSLY. Look at the whole of Scripture which supports eternal security of the believer. If I cannot do good works to get saved, how can i sin to get "unsaved". You do not understand a Believer's POSITION IN CHRIST. You are not saved one day then unsaved the next etc etc... The Believer knows they are His and vice versa. Verse after verse prove eternal security. There are about 3-5 verses those who do not believe in OSAS and they misapply them.

    Those who deny OSAS are not trusting fully in Jesus for their salvation. They are trusting in themselves also. You are lowering true Christianity to other religions who are hoping to attain salvation by keeping the laws.
    That is a very important point, and I think it sums up this whole debate.

    If people trust in works for salvation, then it's inevitable that they will believe they they can lose their salvation, due to their works (what they do.)

    As you said, there are tons of verses that show that true born again believers have eternal security. So to deny that is to call God a liar.

    To the anti-eternal security people, I ask you to please think about something... Please use your God-given intuition, as well as logic and reason. I'm going to bold a word in a few verses... Then I'm going to ask you a question.


    "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." John 5:24

    "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16

    "For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day." John 6:40

    "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23


    If a person is saved, they have eternal life, that is what the bible says. So here is my question to you. If a person can be truly saved, receiving eternal life, and then be UNsaved (lose their salvation), then was that life they received eternal, yes or no?

    If a person can be "unsaved" or "lose their salvation" then they did NOT have eternal life. They received temporary "life." Then they go to spiritual death, or separation from God.

    So to say that a person can be TRULY saved - and have eternal life - then later "lose" their salvation and NOT be raised up on the last day to eternal life with God goes against Jesus own words, and it is to call God a liar.

    God is not a liar.

    And btw, I feel like the fact that so many churches teach works and teach against eternal security of the true believer is a sign of the times. We must be getting closer to the last days, because there are so many people teaching all sorts of things that go against what the bible says.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    And btw, I feel like the fact that so many churches teach works and teach against eternal security of the true believer is a sign of the times. We must be getting closer to the last days, because there are so many people teaching all sorts of things that go against what the bible says.
    IMO the eternal security doctrine is a creation of the church. I don't know of hardly any church that teaches against eternal security, except for maybe the Catholic church. And as JMdrake said, I don't agree with the Catholic church that you lose your salvation if you don't take sacraments. I just came to believe that eternal security is a false doctrine by reading and studying the Bible and coming to my own conclusions. For every verse that seems to point towards eternal security, there's 10 that point against it. You have to go with the preponderance of the evidence.



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  5. #33
    I'm not saying that people are just constantly in and out and just constantly losing their salvation, but there are certainly people who were Christians at one time who lost their faith and became atheists, and there are people who decide to use their salvation as a license to sin who believe they will be saved simply because they attended a Billy Graham crusade and said the prayer of salvation. The Bible is clear that these people won't make it to heaven, as every tree on the vine of Christ has to bear fruit.

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin007 View Post
    People are trusting in their works to "stay" saved, and not fully in Jesus.
    It's not really an example of "trusting in ourselves," because even the good works that we do are a result of the Holy Spirit living within us. Our good works come from God.

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    IMO the eternal security doctrine is a creation of the church. I don't know of hardly any church that teaches against eternal security, except for maybe the Catholic church. And as JMdrake said, I don't agree with the Catholic church that you lose your salvation if you don't take sacraments. I just came to believe that eternal security is a false doctrine by reading and studying the Bible and coming to my own conclusions. For every verse that seems to point towards eternal security, there's 10 that point against it. You have to go with the preponderance of the evidence.
    Well, the Catholic church (and apparently the EO) equates to a lot of people.

    It is definitely not a creation of the church, the whole bible is filled with verses that show once we're truly saved, we're saved. As Kevin said, those who believe otherwise are misapplying a handful of verses.

    I really think the whole thing boils down to simple misunderstanding.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashland View Post
    Trusting fully in Jesus is just as much a "work" as anything else. I fail to see a distinction.
    no it is not. it is faith.
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

  9. #37
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    When I was a boy we attended a Wesleyan church for a time. There seemed to be a persistent fear among the members when it came to the security of salvation.

    think you can add Wesleyans to the list of those that reject perservance or eternal security.
    Last edited by Southron; 09-15-2014 at 01:40 PM.
    Equality is a false god.

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  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Rifleman View Post
    When I was a boy we attended a Wesleyan church for a time. There seemed to be a persistent fear among the menbers when it came to the security of salvation.
    I think that is another thing that shows it is not from God. God doesn't want us to live in fear and worry or uncertainty.

    Also, the anti-eternal security position is extremely negative and gloomy. That is not from God.

    If a person doesn't have the peace and joy that comes from salvation and being an adopted child of God, then they should probably re-think their entire understanding of the Gospel, and their spiritual condition.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin007 View Post
    you just made my point.
    No I haven't. But you seem confused enough to believe I have. Why willfully go around disobeying God? If that's what your viewpoint leads to then it is dangerous. As Samuel told Saul, rebellion is like the sin of witchcraft. I love God and have no intention to willfully disobey Him just to prove some point. That seems silly to me.

    You wouldn't know, would you. God wants you to KNOW, OBVIOUSLY.
    Actually God doesn't want us to know everything. The first sin man committed was eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Knowing that I'm saved is good enough. Tempting God to see "what can I do to be lost" sounds similar to Satan tempting Jesus to throw Himself off of the temple to see if God would send the angels to hold Jesus up. In fact it's exactly the same.

    Look at the whole of Scripture which supports eternal security of the believer.
    Key words here. To the believer. And not just to the intellectual believer, but to the one that actually trusts God. After all, the devils have an intellectual belief in God. You and others like you ignore all of the scripture which says things like "Let him who things he stands take heed lest he fall" or "He that endures to the end the same shall be saved" or "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" or admonitions that we be careful not to "fall from grace". You can't just look at the parts of the Bible that agree with your position. You have to look at the parts that disagree with it as wall. Here's a good starting point if you are actually looking to learn more on the subject as opposed to just pushing your point of view and misrepresenting my position. http://www.bible.ca/cal-P-refutation.htm But I'm betting you won't even click the link, let alone read the Bible verses that go against your beliefs let alone attempt to understand them.

    If I cannot do good works to get saved, how can i sin to get "unsaved".
    If you are saved by accepting Jesus you can be unsaved by rejecting Him. It's that simple. Jesus talked about branches in the vine being taken away. He didn't say "There are some branches that were never in the vine to begin with." They were taken away because they didn't abide in the vine. Jesus Himself said "Your work is to believe". Again we know from James that the belief being described is not a mere intellectual belief.

    That said, I have a simple question for you. Why were Adam an Eve kicked out of the garden in the first place? Why was lucifer, created perfect, kicked out of heaven never to be let back in?

    You do not understand a Believer's POSITION IN CHRIST. You are not saved one day then unsaved the next etc etc... The Believer knows they are His and vice versa. Verse after verse prove eternal security. There are about 3-5 verses those who do not believe in OSAS and they misapply them.
    You don't understand how to have an honest debate. You keep attributing to me things I haven't said or believed.

    Those who deny OSAS are not trusting fully in Jesus for their salvation. They are trusting in themselves also. You are lowering true Christianity to other religions who are hoping to attain salvation by keeping the laws. Yoiu are hoping for the best. IMHO the people who are not saved are the ones who do not believe in Eternal Security.
    Nothing could be further from the truth. Those who deny once saved always saved are the ones really trusting Jesus for salvation. Here is an analogy. You've seen those bumper stickers that say "Jesus is my co-pilot?" Well I've seen ones that strike out the "co" and leave Jesus as the pilot. In other words I chose Jesus to run my life. I don't assume that I can keep control of the wheel and arrive safely at my final destination no matter what. I could go with the OSAS view, assume I'm saved, assume that means "I don't need to listen to God at all. I can do whatever the hell I want to because God has no choice but to save me and I have no choice but to be saved." and use it as a license to sin. Oh I'm sure you'll come back with some "But it's not a license to sin". But your earlier question to me "How far can you go in sinning and still be saved" proves that your position is a license to sin. I'm not looking to sin. Sure I sin. It's not ultimately what I want. I believe that the very enmity that I have towards sin is itself proof of my salvation. If I ever got comfortable with sin, then I would be worried. Or actually I wouldn't be worried because then I would be reprobate.

    You guys do not know a thing about sanctification vs salvation. Justification vs glorification.
    *sigh* Right. And ^this is what passes for "debate" these days. Someone jumping up and down saying over and over again "I know it all and you don't." Okay. You know everything. You can make up positions that someone else didn't say and argue against them. Only the Bible verses that support your viewpoint are valid. Sure. Whatever.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    I think that is another thing that shows it is not from God. God doesn't want us to live in fear and worry or uncertainty.
    That's nice. But I don't live in fear and uncertainty. God doesn't want us to make up stuff like you seem so fond of doing either. Also God doesn't want us to tempt Him like Kevin was asking me to do or to commit the sin of presumption.

    Also, the anti-eternal security position is extremely negative and gloomy. That is not from God.

    If a person doesn't have the peace and joy that comes from salvation and being an adopted child of God, then they should probably re-think their entire understanding of the Gospel, and their spiritual condition.
    If you have to misrepresent someone else's position to support your own then your position is extremely weak.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin007 View Post
    I don't care what Darwin felt.
    Right. Because you will attribute your own opinion to anyone else's experience. I will again ask you the question that, so far, you have refused to answer. What is different about the belief of Christians who quit believing other than the fact that they quit believing? How can a Calvinist or a "OSAS" (I'm not sure if you are a Calvinist or not) know that they aren't one of the people that might later on quit believing and never come back? Are you willing to try being an atheist for a few years, or maybe delving into Satanism just to see if you can "get back"? Because I'm not.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    I think that is another thing that shows it is not from God. God doesn't want us to live in fear and worry or uncertainty.

    Also, the anti-eternal security position is extremely negative and gloomy. That is not from God.

    If a person doesn't have the peace and joy that comes from salvation and being an adopted child of God, then they should probably re-think their entire understanding of the Gospel, and their spiritual condition.
    There's no need to live in "fear or worry" if you continually walk in the Spirit of the Lord as we're instructed to---otherwise we are in trouble spiritually. So are you arguing the fact that we don't have to continually walk in the Spirit of the Lord to remain in the state of elect? Or are you saying that once we confess Christ, we are automatically bound for eternal glory--whether we walk in the Spirit of the Lord or not? We do have a choice in this life and people do change their minds and walk away from Christ. That doesn't mean that they were never saved or that they never once walked in the Spirit. It means they have abandoned their belief in Christ by walking away and doing things opposite what we have been commanded to do in Christ. Stay in this state of mind and heart for too long and God simply cuts them off permanently.

    Believe the *way* you wish, but the *way* one believes does indeed make a difference.

    Peace in Christ

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin007 View Post
    no it is not. it is faith.
    Trust and belief are two very different things. You can willingly choose to blindly trust in something even though you don't believe in it. That is a conscious choice. Conscious choices are actions -aka "works". You are in full control of this

    On the other hand, belief is not a conscious decision. Belief is an involuntary reaction , you can't choose to believe something, because if you are honest with yourself, you either believe it or you don't, and you can't control what you find to be convincing.

    So which thing are we talking about here?
    Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. -Douglas Hofstadter

    Life, Liberty, Logic

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    I'm not saying that people are just constantly in and out and just constantly losing their salvation, but there are certainly people who were Christians at one time who lost their faith and became atheists, and there are people who decide to use their salvation as a license to sin who believe they will be saved simply because they attended a Billy Graham crusade and said the prayer of salvation. The Bible is clear that these people won't make it to heaven, as every tree on the vine of Christ has to bear fruit.
    Wouldn't that be a classic, almost too easy example of someone who was never saved to begin with?

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    Wouldn't that be a classic, almost too easy example of someone who was never saved to begin with?
    No because God is patient while we stumble in and out of faith as babes will do until they mature enough to be the meat eaters of the word. This is what the parable of the sower is all about. Some who come and endure for a time and then fall away. This does not mean that they were never saved in the begining--it means they simply chose not to continue following Jesus and go their own ways.

    There's a distinct difference between "stumbling" and ignoring the Holy Spirit for so long that it becomes a hardening of the heart situation--hence grieving the Holy Spirit to the point where God knows their hearts and that they will not return and they are cut off burned (John 15:5) and they can not be *RENEWED* to repentance again. Hebrews 6:4. They have lost faith to the point it died and grace became of no effect any longer. People do this of their own free will and choice--God doesn't do this to them.
    Last edited by Terry1; 09-15-2014 at 01:44 PM.

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    Wouldn't that be a classic, almost too easy example of someone who was never saved to begin with?
    I don't know. Is it? The question that I've been asking Calvinists through the years is what is the difference between someone who believes and is saved and someone who believes and isn't saved? Take TC's example and replace Billy Graham with your favorite Calvinist preacher such as James White or Charles Spurgeon. Someone goes, hears the wonders of TULIP, decides "Hey this is great! I can sin all I want to and as long as I continue to believe TULIP I'm saved!" Do you think that person was "never saved"? If so then why?
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    Wouldn't that be a classic, almost too easy example of someone who was never saved to begin with?
    It might be, but even if those who become atheists and fall away from the faith were never truly saved to begin with, then you still have to worry about the idea that maybe you're not truly saved. Either way, regardless of which view is correct, it shows that we can't just become complacent in our faith and not worry about the possibility of falling away from our faith. Paul warned Christians to examine themselves to see whether or not they were truly in the faith.

    2 Corinthians 13:5

    Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    There's no need to live in "fear or worry" if you continually walk in the Spirit of the Lord as we're instructed to---otherwise we are in trouble spiritually. So are you arguing the fact that we don't have to continually walk in the Spirit of the Lord to remain in the state of elect? Or are you saying that once we confess Christ, we are automatically bound for eternal glory--whether we walk in the Spirit of the Lord or not? We do have a choice in this life and people do change their minds and walk away from Christ. That doesn't mean that they were never saved or that they never once walked in the Spirit. It means they have abandoned their belief in Christ by walking away and doing things opposite what we have been commanded to do in Christ. Stay in this state of mind and heart for too long and God simply cuts them off permanently.

    Believe the *way* you wish, but the *way* one believes does indeed make a difference.

    Peace in Christ
    Hi Terry. No, I wasn't saying that we don't have to continually walk in the Spirit of the Lord, but I see this in a different way, and I'll explain that...

    But first I want to say, I was responding specifically to Rifleman's comment: "There seemed to be a persistent fear among the members when it came to the security of salvation." jmdrake didn't seem to notice that I was replying to Rifleman, and he replied to me, with some anger, seemingly taking that personally, because he accused me of "misrepresenting someone else's position." How can that be a misrepresentation when I was specifically replying to Rifleman's example about the "persistent fear" of the people in that church, and I clearly said, "IF a person doesn't have the peace and joy that comes from salvation..."

    But getting back to what you said... I just see this whole thing entirely differently. When a person is born again/saved, their heart and mind and nature is different than it used to be. It is new. So the good works and the obedience and the "walking in the Spirit of the Lord" is the inevitable fruit of their new life in Christ.

    Where we disagree (correct me if I'm wrong) is that you think that daily good works, continually walking in the Spirit of the Lord, etc is what saves us, or is necessary before we are saved. And we have to constantly "maintain" our salvation, so we don't "lose" it.

    I couldn't disagree more with that entire view of salvation. Salvation, or to be more specific, justification is not about works. Good works is the fruit, not the root!

    But here is the main point I want to make. Constantly striving and "trying to be a good person" and making sure we're daily doing good works so we don't "lose our salvation" to me shows a very big misunderstanding on salvation.

    We can never be good enough on our own. We need to completely surrender and put our faith and trust fully in Jesus. Our old self must die (Gal 2:20, Gal 5:24, Mark 8:35, Romans 6:1-23, Matt 16:25, etc) and we have to be born again. (John 3:3, 1 Peter 1:23, Romans 6:4, 2 Cor 5:17, etc).

    As it says in this video, believing that salvation is about "daily good works" is like spraying perfume on a corpse. It's like putting a band-aid on someone who needs a heart transplant. Salvation (to be more accurate, justification) is a one time thing. Once a person is truly saved, they go from death to life. You can't go back and forth, once you are truly saved, you are saved, period.



    The thing that you are talking about (daily walking with God, good works, spiritual growth, becoming more holy and more like Christ) is sanctification. But those things are not what save us. We are saved by grace, through faith, so that no one can boast.

    As for your question about someone being saved and then living a life of sin... While it may be possible for someone to backslide temporarily, someone who is truly saved will always come back. For example, David committed horrible sins (adultery and murder) yet he was a man after God's own heart, and he truly loved God, and he was repentant.

    On the other hand, someone who might go through the motions and profess to be a Christian, then live a life of sin, or leave God completely, is someone who almost certainly was never truly saved and regenerated in the first place.

    Someone who is truly saved and born again does NOT leave God or choose a life of sin over belonging to God.

    Just like you can't go through your mother's womb and be "born" (physically) twice, being born again (spiritually) is a one time thing. You can't be "born" and then "unborn."

    One can be born physically, and never born spiritually. Sadly, many people fall into that category.
    Last edited by lilymc; 09-15-2014 at 03:59 PM.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    It might be, but even if those who become atheists and fall away from the faith were never truly saved to begin with, then you still have to worry about the idea that maybe you're not truly saved. Either way, regardless of which view is correct, it shows that we can't just become complacent in our faith and not worry about the possibility of falling away from our faith. Paul warned Christians to examine themselves to see whether or not they were truly in the faith.

    2 Corinthians 13:5

    Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?
    Oh man, I am offering sacrifices to the +reputation gods but nothing is happening.
    Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. -Douglas Hofstadter

    Life, Liberty, Logic

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    Hi Terry. No, I wasn't saying that we don't have to continually walk in the Spirit of the Lord, but I see this in a different way, and I'll explain that...

    But first I want to say, I was responding specifically to Rifleman's comment: "There seemed to be a persistent fear among the members when it came to the security of salvation." jmdrake didn't seem to notice that I was replying to Rifleman, and he replied to me, with some anger, seemingly taking that personally, because he accused me of "misrepresenting someone else's position." How can that be a misrepresentation when I was specifically replying to Rifleman's example about the "persistent fear" of the people in that church, and I clearly said, "IF a person doesn't have the peace and joy that comes from salvation..."
    If I made a mistake in that regard, my apologies.

    But getting back to what you said... I just see this whole thing entirely differently. When a person is born again/saved, their heart and mind and nature is different than it used to be. It is new. So the good works and the obedience and the "walking in the Spirit of the Lord" is the inevitable fruit of their new life in Christ.

    Where we disagree (correct me if I'm wrong) is that you think that daily good works, continually walking in the Spirit of the Lord, etc is what saves us, or is necessary before we are saved. And we have to constantly "maintain" our salvation, so we don't "lose" it.

    I couldn't disagree more with that entire view of salvation. Salvation, or to be more specific, justification is not about works. Good works is the fruit, not the root!

    But here is the main point I want to make. Constantly striving and "trying to be a good person" and making sure we're daily doing good works so we don't "lose our salvation" to me shows a very big misunderstanding on salvation.

    We can never be good enough on our own. We need to completely surrender and put our faith and trust fully in Jesus. Our old self must die (Gal 2:20, Gal 5:24, Mark 8:35, Romans 6:1-23, Matt 16:25, etc) and we have to be born again. (John 3:3, 1 Peter 1:23, Romans 6:4, 2 Cor 5:17, etc).
    I agree with the sentiment that salvation comes from complete surrender to Jesus. I just believe that surrender is a daily thing.

    Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin007 View Post
    you just made my point. You wouldn't know, would you. God wants you to KNOW, OBVIOUSLY. Look at the whole of Scripture which supports eternal security of the believer. If I cannot do good works to get saved, how can i sin to get "unsaved". You do not understand a Believer's POSITION IN CHRIST. You are not saved one day then unsaved the next etc etc... The Believer knows they are His and vice versa. Verse after verse prove eternal security. There are about 3-5 verses those who do not believe in OSAS and they misapply them.

    Those who deny TULIP are not trusting fully in Jesus for their salvation. They are trusting in themselves also. You are lowering true Christianity to other religions who are hoping to attain salvation by keeping the laws. Yoiu are hoping for the best. IMHO the people who are not saved are the ones who do not believe in Eternal Security.

    You guys do not know a thing about sanctification vs salvation. Justification vs glorification.
    FIFY. Any denial of ANY of the TULIP points entails at least some degree of trusting in oneself. If you can do something to trigger your own justification, even if that thing is believing, that is a serious error.

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    FIFY. Any denial of ANY of the TULIP points entails at least some degree of trusting in oneself. If you can do something to trigger your own justification, even if that thing is believing, that is a serious error.
    LOL. Total nonsense. I'm still waiting for you to answer the question I asked you in post #46 or post #13.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    Hi Terry. No, I wasn't saying that we don't have to continually walk in the Spirit of the Lord, but I see this in a different way, and I'll explain that...

    But first I want to say, I was responding specifically to Rifleman's comment: "There seemed to be a persistent fear among the members when it came to the security of salvation." jmdrake didn't seem to notice that I was replying to Rifleman, and he replied to me, with some anger, seemingly taking that personally, because he accused me of "misrepresenting someone else's position." How can that be a misrepresentation when I was specifically replying to Rifleman's example about the "persistent fear" of the people in that church, and I clearly said, "IF a person doesn't have the peace and joy that comes from salvation..."

    But getting back to what you said... I just see this whole thing entirely differently. When a person is born again/saved, their heart and mind and nature is different than it used to be. It is new. So the good works and the obedience and the "walking in the Spirit of the Lord" is the inevitable fruit of their new life in Christ.

    Where we disagree (correct me if I'm wrong) is that you think that daily good works, continually walking in the Spirit of the Lord, etc is what saves us, or is necessary before we are saved. And we have to constantly "maintain" our salvation, so we don't "lose" it.

    I couldn't disagree more with that entire view of salvation. Salvation, or to be more specific, justification is not about works. Good works is the fruit, not the root!

    But here is the main point I want to make. Constantly striving and "trying to be a good person" and making sure we're daily doing good works so we don't "lose our salvation" to me shows a very big misunderstanding on salvation.

    We can never be good enough on our own. We need to completely surrender and put our faith and trust fully in Jesus. Our old self must die (Gal 2:20, Gal 5:24, Mark 8:35, Romans 6:1-23, Matt 16:25, etc) and we have to be born again. (John 3:3, 1 Peter 1:23, Romans 6:4, 2 Cor 5:17, etc).

    As it says in this video, believing that salvation is about "daily good works" is like spraying perfume on a corpse. It's like putting a band-aid on someone who needs a heart transplant. Salvation (to be more accurate, justification) is a one time thing. Once a person is truly saved, they go from death to life. You can't go back and forth, once you are truly saved, you are saved, period.



    The thing that you are talking about (daily walking with God, good works, spiritual growth, becoming more holy and more like Christ) is sanctification. But those things are not what save us. We are saved by grace, through faith, so that no one can boast.

    As for your question about someone being saved and then living a life of sin... While it may be possible for someone to backslide temporarily, someone who is truly saved will always come back. For example, David committed horrible sins (adultery and murder) yet he was a man after God's own heart, and he truly loved God, and he was repentant.

    On the other hand, someone who might go through the motions and profess to be a Christian, then live a life of sin, or leave God completely, is someone who almost certainly was never truly saved and regenerated in the first place.

    Someone who is truly saved and born again does NOT leave God or choose a life of sin over belonging to God.

    Just like you can't go through your mother's womb and be "born" (physically) twice, being born again (spiritually) is a one time thing. You can't be "born" and then "unborn."

    One can be born physically, and never born spiritually. Sadly, many people fall into that category.
    Thank you Lily for your thoughtful reply here, but what I mainly wanted to address in your post was this statement right here:

    I couldn't disagree more with that entire view of salvation. Salvation, or to be more specific, justification is not about works. Good works is the fruit, not the root!
    I think it's important to remember that *walking in the spirit of the Lord* pretty much covers everything regarding salvation, but also--know that God's grace is what empowers us and faith is what we do as a result of being empowered by God to act upon our belief. It's not a "root" as you say the way I see it, but in order for faith to grow and the branch bear fruit of the spirit--we must *do something* in response to our belief. This is answering our calling by doing what we are called to do in full faith understanding what John 15:5 is telling us--without these fruits that branch/believer of the True Vine Jesus dies, it is cut off and burned. This is how faith dies is by not responding to what the Holy Spirit is calling us to do. Belief alone can not produce the fruits of the Spirit--only faith can do this. Our faith is a physical response--an action--something that we do because we believe and trust the Lord. This our light and the evidence of our belief *through faith*. Grace/power through faith/action we are saved.

    We were not meant to live as lumps stagnating in belief alone. Our faith is suppose to grow and the only way faith can grow and we become stronger in the Lord is by the leading and guiding of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit works through our conscience mind. It convicts us of things we are doing wrong or need to do and tells us where, when and how to do it. This is walking in the Spirit of the Lord while at the same time bringing forth fruit of that same spirit by our actions and trust in what the Lord is telling us to do.

    I really don't understand what it is that you're not agreeing with here. The only reason anyone would disagree with what I'm saying is if they're living a life they know isn't consistent with how God commands us to live. Many OSAS believers live lives not consistent with how God tells us to live thinking that no matter what they do--nothing can "snatch them out of the fathers hands"--which is not biblical. They can be snatched by this belief alone while believing all the while it can not happen to them.

    Those who can not be snatched out of the Fathers hands are those who've already died the first death and are in heaven with the Father.
    Last edited by Terry1; 09-15-2014 at 06:19 PM.

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    If I made a mistake in that regard, my apologies.
    No worries.

    I agree with the sentiment that salvation comes from complete surrender to Jesus. I just believe that surrender is a daily thing.

    Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
    I agree that it should be a daily thing. But that is part of sanctification, which shouldn't be confused with justification.

    Jesus did not die for ONLY our past sins. If that was the case, then we would have to "get saved" 20 times a day (or else be eternally separated from God) causing some people (as Rifleman pointed out) to be in constant fear. That is unbiblical, illogical and completely counterintuitive.

    The very word "saved" would be meaningless if salvation was something we had to do every 5 minutes. How saved are we, if we have to "get saved" after every sin, or else go to hell?

    Getting saved (forgiven of all our sins, our debt paid in full, made positionally righteous) is a very real, special one time event. It is when we go from death to life, and we become born from above, a son or daughter of God.

    The thing that is continual and an ongoing process is sanctification.


    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    Thank you Lily for your thoughtful reply here, but what I mainly wanted to address in your post was this statement right here:



    I think it's important to remember that *walking in the spirit of the Lord* pretty much covers everything regarding salvation, but also--know that God's grace is what empowers us and faith is what we do as a result of being empowered by God to act upon our belief. It's not a "root" as you say the way I see it, but in order for faith to grow and the branch bear fruit of the spirit--we must *do something* in response to our belief. This is answering our calling by doing what we are called to do in full faith understanding what John 15:5 is telling us--without these fruits that branch/believer of the True Vine Jesus dies, it is cut off and burned. This is how faith dies is by not responding to what the Holy Spirit is calling us to do. Belief alone can not produce the fruits of the Spirit--only faith can do this. Our faith is a physical response--an action--something that we do because we believe and trust the Lord. This our light and the evidence of our belief *through faith*. Grace/power through faith/action we are saved.

    We were not meant to live as lumps stagnating in belief alone. Our faith is suppose to grow and the only way faith can grow and we become stronger in the Lord is by the leading and guiding of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit works through our conscience mind. It convicts us of things we are doing wrong or need to do and tells us where, when and how to do it. This is walking in the Spirit of the Lord while at the same time bringing forth fruit of that same spirit by our actions and trust in what the Lord is telling us to do.

    I really don't understand what it is that you're not agreeing with here. The only reason anyone would disagree with what I'm saying is if they're living a life they know isn't consistent with how God commands us to live. Many OSAS believers live lives not consistent with how God tells us to live thinking that no matter what they do--nothing can "snatch them out of the fathers hands"--which is not biblical. They can be snatched by this belief alone while believing all the while it can not happen to them.

    Those who can not be snatched out of the Fathers hands are those who've already died the first death and are in heaven with the Father.

    Terry, I never, ever said or even implied that we "were meant to live as lumps, stagnating in belief alone." I believe the exact opposite! So how you got that from my post is crazy to me.

    What I've been saying repeatedly is that the daily walking with God, the good works, spiritual growth, etc is all the FRUIT of being saved, it is not what saves us!

    You are also fighting a straw man, because I clearly stated that if someone claims to be a Christian then "goes off to live a life of sin" just because they think they have a license to sin, that person is most likely not saved, and was never regenerated and sealed with the Holy Spirit.

    A person who is born again and saved no longer wants to live the way they used to live. They don't want to live like the world lives! They WANT to do God's will, to learn, grow, and continually move forward spiritually.

    But it is not out of a constant fear of "losing their salvation" (which is impossible) or of going to hell, it is because we are a new creation, we have a new heart and mind, and it's out of LOVE for God.

    You brought up a few other straw man arguments, but I don't have time right now to respond to every single thing you said.

    I think we're going to have to agree to disagree, because you have a very Catholic/EO view of salvation, it is a works-based mentality. You remind me a lot of my Mom (who is very Catholic). She has the same exact mentality. When I try to talk to her about salvation, her response is always something like, "I'm a good person. It's all about being a good person." She does not understand the need to be born again. In fact, she has a very strong resistance to that... which shows that she does not want to fully surrender to God.

    I have many Catholic relatives like that too. They believe it's about our good works, being a good person. They reject the idea of being born again. Yet they are living lives just like the world. They do pretty much all the same things the world does, with the exception of going to church on Sunday.

    I believe that is a dangerous mentality to have, because it shows a lack of belief and faith in what JESUS did for us. And the bible is clear that we are justified by FAITH.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Right. Because you will attribute your own opinion to anyone else's experience. I will again ask you the question that, so far, you have refused to answer. What is different about the belief of Christians who quit believing other than the fact that they quit believing? How can a Calvinist or a "OSAS" (I'm not sure if you are a Calvinist or not) know that they aren't one of the people that might later on quit believing and never come back? Are you willing to try being an atheist for a few years, or maybe delving into Satanism just to see if you can "get back"? Because I'm not.
    they were never truly saved to begin with. The Holy Spirit doesn't just get up and go at the first sign of sin/trouble. You are either a Believer or you are not.
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    No because God is patient while we stumble in and out of faith as babes will do until they mature enough to be the meat eaters of the word. This is what the parable of the sower is all about. Some who come and endure for a time and then fall away. This does not mean that they were never saved in the begining--it means they simply chose not to continue following Jesus and go their own ways.

    There's a distinct difference between "stumbling" and ignoring the Holy Spirit for so long that it becomes a hardening of the heart situation--hence grieving the Holy Spirit to the point where God knows their hearts and that they will not return and they are cut off burned (John 15:5) and they can not be *RENEWED* to repentance again. Hebrews 6:4. They have lost faith to the point it died and grace became of no effect any longer. People do this of their own free will and choice--God doesn't do this to them.
    the Parable of the Sower- The seed is the Word. ALL are Believer's in Jesus, ALL believers produce fruit; SOME MORE, SOME LESS. A true believer produces some fruit at varying degrees throughout his lifetime, it can be small, or it can be 100%. The yield of the fruit is always measured by the whole life of a tree (the Believer) not just a year/season. Many times we are pruned back so that we can be more fruitful, so be encouraged if you are in this state right now-- fruit is coming.


    It is how we let the Word work in the soil (our heart). The underlying reason we produce fruit is because we have understanding of the Word. It changes our lives (sanctification) as we yield to the Spirit in obedience. Every Believer will have more or less fruit (yield) than another Believer, but we are all saved. This is why Believer's will have different rewards than eachother. All of us live different lives and we all produces varying degrees of fruit.
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    I don't know. Is it? The question that I've been asking Calvinists through the years is what is the difference between someone who believes and is saved and someone who believes and isn't saved? Take TC's example and replace Billy Graham with your favorite Calvinist preacher such as James White or Charles Spurgeon. Someone goes, hears the wonders of TULIP, decides "Hey this is great! I can sin all I want to and as long as I continue to believe TULIP I'm saved!" Do you think that person was "never saved"? If so then why?
    Because of the bold.

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    I don't know. Is it? The question that I've been asking Calvinists through the years is what is the difference between someone who believes and is saved and someone who believes and isn't saved? Take TC's example and replace Billy Graham with your favorite Calvinist preacher such as James White or Charles Spurgeon. Someone goes, hears the wonders of TULIP, decides "Hey this is great! I can sin all I want to and as long as I continue to believe TULIP I'm saved!" Do you think that person was "never saved"? If so then why?
    James answers your question. If they were not saved, they keep sinning; no real change in lifestyle. If they are saved, it is not a license to sin for the NEW Believer.


    Romans 6 New International Version (NIV)

    Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ

    6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
    5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
    8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
    11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
    Slaves to Righteousness

    15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
    19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[b] Christ Jesus our Lord.
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

  34. #59
    Again, what's the difference between saying that it's possible for someone to lose their salvation and saying that it's possible for someone to think that they're a Christian but aren't actually a Christian? If there are people who think they're Christians, but aren't Christians and were never truly saved to begin with, then how do you know that you're not one of those people? It seems to me like even if you don't have to worry about the possibility of losing your salvation, you still have to worry about the possibility that you were never truly saved to begin with. Because apparently there are a lot of people who thought they were saved who ended up departing from the faith.

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    Again, what's the difference between saying that it's possible for someone to lose their salvation and saying that it's possible for someone to think that they're a Christian but aren't actually a Christian? If there are people who think they're Christians, but aren't Christians and were never truly saved to begin with, then how do you know that you're not one of those people? It seems to me like even if you don't have to worry about the possibility of losing your salvation, you still have to worry about the possibility that you were never truly saved to begin with. Because apparently there are a lot of people who thought they were saved who ended up departing from the faith.
    To me the real issue isn't the lack of assurance, although that could be an issue. The real issue is did Christ really mean it when he said "It is finished". Were those people (even if hypothetically I wasn't one of them) absolutely certain to go to heaven? Or do they also have to contribute some work of their own to get there?

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