Page 4 of 8 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast
Results 91 to 120 of 221

Thread: No man can snatch them out of my hand

  1. #91
    To this day Judas being called with the other disciples is somewhat mysterious. Judas Iscariot is noted in history as the one who betrayed Him (Jesus). Yet Judas was first numbered among the Twelve apostles (Lk.6:13, 22:3; Acts 1:16-17 numbered with us), “chosen” by Christ Himself, the “Apostle Judas” became a traitor? How could they not know a betrayer was in their midst. How could Judas go out and minister with them and see the same results and yet turn Jesus over in the hands of those who hated him?

    Some things we need to notice about Judas, he called Jesus teacher, he never called Jesus Lord or master as the other apostles did. This may be a hint how he saw Jesus. Jesus wanted to be known as Lord, not just teacher (Mk.12:37; Lk.20:42; Jn.9:36-38). While the other disciples wondered what kind of man Jesus was, a man that could calm the sea by a word, Judas accepted him only as Rabbi.


    One cannot be an official apostle without seeing Jesus’ resurrection, which Judas did not see because he hung himself beforehand. The 12 were called apostles (chosen sent ones) prior but did not become the apostles of the Church until the resurrection, for the church was not officially born until the Holy Spirit was sent on Pentecost. It was then the apostles were put in their office of teaching, planting churches and doing miracles in the power of the Holy Spirit.

    Was Judas saved because he was a disciple and lost salvation? It is assumed he was saved because he traveled with the other disciples but it may be more prudent to take the position he was not. Judas was hand picked like the other disciples but his position was temporary (Jesus knew what was going on all along). He was given the job of treasury but he was secretly a thief. Jesus put Judas in charge of the very thing that would give either wings to his hearts corruption or for his repentance, money. Judas often heard Jesus speak on money but it did not change him. The possibility to reform him was always there but it did not occur because of his own heart not inclined to obey the words spoken by our Lord.

    It was Judas who showed what was in his heart when he complained about the oil was poured over Jesus preparing him for his burial.

    John 12:2-8 “There they made Him a supper; and Martha served, but Lazarus was one of those who sat at the table with Him. Then Mary took a pound of very costly oil of spikenard, anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped His feet with her hair. And the house was filled with the fragrance of the oil. Then one of His disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, who would betray Him, said, “Why was this fragrant oil not sold for three hundred denari and given to the poor?” This he said, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief, and had the money box; and he used to take what was put in it. But Jesus said, “Let her alone; she has kept this for the day of My burial. “For the poor you have with you always, but Me you do not have always.

    http://www.letusreason.org/doct48.htm
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.



  2. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  3. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin007 View Post
    i am saying people who are saved still sin. But Jesus' blood covers our sins, period.
    Ask yourself this question Kevin, does the blood of Jesus still cover those who have fallen from grace and their faith dead? One has to have grace and faith before they can fall from it or faith die. Are you saying that these people were never once among the elect of God?

  4. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    Ask yourself this question Kevin, does the blood of Jesus still cover those who have fallen from grace and their faith dead? One has to have grace and faith before they can fall from it or faith die. Are you saying that these people were never once among the elect of God?
    show me in the Bible where a person lost their salvation..... Jesus' blood doesn't cover the unsaved, no. Jesus' blood covers all believer's sins. Just because they have wandered from God at times, doesn't mean they are not saved or His child who is sealed with His Spirit. What is falling away? one sin unrepented? 2, 3?
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

  5. #94

    Do Christians have to keep asking for forgiveness for their sins?

    Question: "Do Christians have to keep asking for forgiveness for their sins?"

    Answer:
    A frequent question is “what happens if I sin, and then I die before I have an opportunity to confess that sin to God?” Another common question is “what happens if I commit a sin, but then forget about it and never remember to confess it to God?” Both of these questions rest on a faulty assumption. Salvation is not a matter of believers trying to confess and repent from every sin they commit before they die. Salvation is not based on whether a Christian has confessed and repented of every sin. Yes, we should confess our sins to God as soon as we are aware that we have sinned. However, we do not always need to be asking God for forgiveness. When we place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, all of our sins are forgiven. That includes past, present, and future, big or small. Believers do not have to keep asking for forgiveness or repenting in order to have their sins forgiven. Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins, and when they are forgiven, they are all forgiven (Colossians 1:14; Acts 10:43).

    Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Christia...#ixzz3DXEZnwsY
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

  6. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    Ask yourself this question Kevin, does the blood of Jesus still cover those who have fallen from grace and their faith dead? One has to have grace and faith before they can fall from it or faith die. Are you saying that these people were never once among the elect of God?
    if your child sins against you or runs away, or worse- are they still your son?
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

  7. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin007 View Post
    if your child sins against you or runs away, or worse- are they still your son?
    That's a mighty slippery spiritual slope Kevin. This is where you venture into that "once saved always saved" no matter who you kill or what kind of perverted life you choose to live without repentance.

    Is a life of sin without repentance after one has confessed Christ in the same category as one who has stumbled in faith and repented realizing where they made mistakes and returned back to God?
    Last edited by Terry1; 09-16-2014 at 08:36 PM.



  8. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  9. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    That's a mighty slippery spiritual slope Kevin. This is where you venture into that "once saved always saved" no matter who you kill or what kind of perverted life you choose to live without repentance.

    Is a life of sin without repentance after one has confessed Christ in the same category as one who has stumbled in faith and repented realizing where they made mistakes and returned back to God?
    you didn't answer the question. Are they still your son? The answer is yes.
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

  10. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin007 View Post

    Do Christians have to keep asking for forgiveness for their sins?

    Question: "Do Christians have to keep asking for forgiveness for their sins?"

    Answer:
    A frequent question is “what happens if I sin, and then I die before I have an opportunity to confess that sin to God?” Another common question is “what happens if I commit a sin, but then forget about it and never remember to confess it to God?” Both of these questions rest on a faulty assumption. Salvation is not a matter of believers trying to confess and repent from every sin they commit before they die. Salvation is not based on whether a Christian has confessed and repented of every sin. Yes, we should confess our sins to God as soon as we are aware that we have sinned. However, we do not always need to be asking God for forgiveness. When we place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, all of our sins are forgiven. That includes past, present, and future, big or small. Believers do not have to keep asking for forgiveness or repenting in order to have their sins forgiven. Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins, and when they are forgiven, they are all forgiven (Colossians 1:14; Acts 10:43).

    Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Christia...#ixzz3DXEZnwsY


    Repentance is a daily exercise in faith Kevin of which without--we have no hope. This is what Hebrews 6:4 is telling you. When a believer can no longer be "RENEWED TO REPENTANCE"--God has turned them over to their own sin and delusions at that point where there is no coming back from.

    You really need to avoid that "Got Questions" site--it's very wrong, unbiblical and misleading in every sense of the word.

  11. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post


    Repentance is a daily exercise in faith Kevin of which without--we have no hope. This is what Hebrews 6:4 is telling you. When a believer can no longer be "RENEWED TO REPENTANCE"--God has turned them over to their own sin and delusions at that point where there is no coming back from.

    You really need to avoid that "Got Questions" site--it's very wrong, unbiblical and misleading in every sense of the word.
    so Jesus only paid for repentant sins of the Believer?
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

  12. #100
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

    "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.

  13. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin007 View Post
    so Jesus only paid for repentant sins of the Believer?
    When a believer stumbles in faith and falls back into sin--how do they return to the Lord Kevin? The only way back is through repentance. Many of us stumble and fall back into old bad habits many times throughout our spiritual journey in faith--repentance is the only path back to God and the only way a believer can be forgiven is through repenting of the sin that they stumbled and fell back into.

    It's those who God knows will not repent and return to Him that He will not allow to be "renewed to repentance"--they are cut off permanently at that point because God knew they wouldn't return.

  14. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin007 View Post
    so Jesus only paid for repentant sins of the Believer?
    Repentance is not a *one time event* at confession. Repentance is a life-long process by learning from our mistakes and repenting of them. Repent simply means to *change ones mind* that's followed by our actions as in *we stop doing something because it's wrong and not within the will of God*. Jesus said--repent and be forgiven--He didn't say *you're forgiven whether you repent or not*.

  15. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin007 View Post
    you didn't answer the question. Are they still your son? The answer is yes.
    Let God answer that one for you.

    Matthew 7:21-23

    I Never Knew You

    21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

    Psalm 69: 28Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

    Revelation 3:5

    He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels
    Last edited by Terry1; 09-16-2014 at 09:32 PM.

  16. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    Let God answer that one for you.

    Matthew 7:21-23

    I Never Knew You

    21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
    I'm glad you brought that up, because that is one of the best passages to show that once we're saved, we're saved.

    Two points....

    1) Jesus said, "I never knew you." If the person was at one time truly saved and a true child of God, then Jesus would have known them.

    He would have said, "I once knew you, but I no longer know you."

    But what did He say? He said, "I never knew you." How much more plain and clear can it be? He is flat out saying that they were never His!

    2) The people who He was talking to did not have a relationship with Him, and they were not obedient to Him, but they were doing works. Listen to what they said, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?"

    They did tons of works, but they obviously trusted in THEIR OWN WORKS instead of in Jesus. And they did not obey Him, because He wants us to simply trust and have faith in HIM, not in our own works. And He wants us to be born again.

    So that scripture not only does not help your position, but it goes directly against it.

    As for the blotting names out verse, we already went over that earlier on the thread (or it might've been the other thread.) You never responded to that.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau



  17. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  18. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    Let God answer that one for you.

    Matthew 7:21-23

    I Never Knew You

    21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

    Psalm 69: 28Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

    Revelation 3:5

    He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels
    so you never knew your son?
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

  19. #106
    @Kevin- Can a man choose to be born?

  20. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    @Kevin- Can a man choose to be born?
    We can choose to be born again.

    If it was not a choice, then Jesus would not have bothered emphasizing to Nicodemus the necessity to be born again.

    But this thread is not about Calvinism, so that's a discussion for another time/place.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  21. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    We can choose to be born again.

    If it was not a choice, then Jesus would not have bothered emphasizing to Nicodemus the necessity to be born again.

    But this thread is not about Calvinism, so that's a discussion for another time/place.
    What's the basis for believing in eternal security if you accept the concept of free will? I can understand why the Calvinists believe in eternal security, because they believe that man literally has no free will at all, that God simply saves the elect and keeps them saved. But if you're someone who believes in free will, that man has the ability to choose whether or not to serve God, why is it not possible for man to turn away from God and decide that he no longer wants anything to do with him? To me it seems like the doctrines of free will and eternal security don't go together very well at all.

  22. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    What's the basis for believing in eternal security if you accept the concept of free will? I can understand why the Calvinists believe in eternal security, because they believe that man literally has no free will at all, that God simply saves the elect and keeps them saved. But if you're someone who believes in free will, that man has the ability to choose whether or not to serve God, why is it not possible for man to turn away from God and decide that he no longer wants anything to do with him? To me it seems like the doctrines of free will and eternal security don't go together very well at all.
    The basis? The whole bible. Everyone has the choice to accept or reject God, but once we are saved, we are no longer the same person. We are a new creation. We have (in a sense) a new DNA.

    Once we are adopted into God's family, we no longer want what the world has to offer. And even if we do stray or get lost for a time, we are still God's children, and He will bring us back to Him. As I said in post #87, the Romans verse is clear that nothing can separate us from God's love, and He will never leave us.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  23. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    The basis? The whole bible. Everyone has the choice to accept or reject God, but once we are saved, we are no longer the same person. We are a new creation. We have (in a sense) a new DNA.

    Once we are adopted into God's family, we no longer want what the world has to offer. And even if we do stray or get lost for a time, we are still God's children, and He will bring us back to Him. As I said in post #87, the Romans verse is clear that nothing can separate us from God's love, and He will never leave us.
    This is why Protestants argue with each other, because you all believe something different from the other. Calvinism vs Arminianism, perseverance of the saints vs the free will, faith in faith doctrines, no repentance needed doctrines. Protestants are all over the spiritual and biblical map with what they believe denotes eternal security and salvation. They preach a thousand different gospels and argue with each other all day long and there's a reason that Protestants can not come together in their doctrinal beliefs.

    Perseverance of the saints is spawned from John Calvin--whether it's the belief in Predestination in this life or OSAS in this life. It all denotes that one can not lose their salvation in this life. These doctrines breed and encourage corrupt lives and violence assuring people that no matter what they do or how they live they "can not fall from grace or lose their salvation in this life". These false teachings were dreamed up by the reformers to refute the Catholic faith. They didn't just want their freedom from the Catholic church--they wanted to pervert the Gospel of Christ as well and create another Jesus of their own making saying that nothing you do in this life will affect your eternal security after making a statement of confession that you believe in Christ.

    This absolute garbage being taught that we don't have to repent of anything after a one time confession of belief is insane and it's beyond me as to who could believe something like that other than someone who wanted to live a life outside of the will of God and still believe they're saved and remain in the state of elect no matter what they do or how they live.

    Think about how you raise your own children for goodness sakes. Do you tell them that they'll always be rewarded for bad behavior? So if they grow up to be some violent rapist and murderer who's turned their life over to satan that you'll still love who they are and what they've become because you gave birth to them and that they'll always be welcome back into your home and trust? Are these the people God wants to inherit the Kingdom of heaven?

    Think about what you're believing and advocating because Charles Stanley teaches the very same thing as I just stated claiming there's nothing anyone can do to lose their salvation after they've confessed belief just once in their life. Do not sit here and tell me that "they were never saved"---if you believe that a one time confession is all that saves--then by that same logic---they were once saved and chose by their own free will to walk away from God and abandon His will.

    TC is absolutely correct stating that believing in the "free will" and the OSAS doctrine contradict one another. What good is believing that people have a free will if you believe that people never have or will use their free will to abandon their belief and faith in Christ. Even FF sees the illogical state of belief here believing in Predestination alone as he does, which is also wrong, but it makes more sense to believe that we don't have a free will and that we've been Predestined--even though that doctrine is wrong as well.

    None of this garbage was taught until the 15th century and the reformers perverted the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
    Last edited by Terry1; 09-17-2014 at 05:47 AM.

  24. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin007 View Post
    so you never knew your son?
    Gods word clearly tells you that those who do not abide in the Son Jesus Christ will not inherit the Kingdom of heaven. "Abide" means to live a life in Christ that exemplifies our Lord through us. Those who abandon Christ by never repenting or believing there's no need to are in danger of becoming reprobates with this belief.

    Do you know what a reprobate is and how they reach this state of being? It's not a matter of them never having been in the state of elect--it's a matter of them having fallen from it. The lost who have never been saved or in the state of elect are just that and unbelievers. Unbelievers can't fall from something or lose something they never had to begin with. Do you understand this?




    1 Corinthians 6:9

    9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Be not deceived: Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,


    Do you actually believe that your one-time confession of faith without repenting of anything for the rest of your life no matter how corrupt or evil you become that God will still permit you to enter the Kingdom of Heaven?

    Galations 5:
    4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

    The "law" that St. Paul is talking about here is the OT law of Moses of dead works. We are justified by faith only because of what we do based upon what it is that we believe. Then James tells you that "faith without works is dead being alone".

    So Paul tells you that "ye have fallen from grace". This is why Paul warns us to continually "abide" in Christ by walking in the Spirit of the Lord--always. We have a choice in the matter--we can choose to *walk away* and live outside of the spirit of the Lord and fall from grace--faith then dies at that point if we ignore the Holy Spirit for too long.

    Why don't you explain what Hebrews 6:4 is saying then Kevin.
    Last edited by Terry1; 09-17-2014 at 06:44 AM.

  25. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    The basis? The whole bible. Everyone has the choice to accept or reject God, but once we are saved, we are no longer the same person. We are a new creation. We have (in a sense) a new DNA.
    So then does that mean that we lose our free will after we become saved?



  26. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  27. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    The basis? The whole bible. Everyone has the choice to accept or reject God, but once we are saved, we are no longer the same person. We are a new creation. We have (in a sense) a new DNA.

    Once we are adopted into God's family, we no longer want what the world has to offer. And even if we do stray or get lost for a time, we are still God's children, and He will bring us back to Him. As I said in post #87, the Romans verse is clear that nothing can separate us from God's love, and He will never leave us.
    He will *never leave us*. People can and do walk away from Christ though and although God said He's patient and gives mankind "space to repent"--He knows when a person will never return to Him and cuts them off for good at some point knowing their hearts. This does not mean that they were "never saved"--it means they used their own free will to walk away.

    OSAS people do not understand what Hebrews 6:4 is saying. Because Hebrews 6:4 contradicts your interpretation of other scriptures talking about a future event after this life that you believe is talking about this life--as in "can not snatch them out of the Fathers hands". That is a future event in the next life. People can walk away and they can be snatched out of the Fathers hands during the course of this life by their own free will to choose opposite God and fall back into sin.

    If we were OSAS--after a one-time confession--it would not be possible to "fall back" into sin. One has to be *free from sin* at some point before they can fall back into it. Use the God given common sense logic in this case.

    You're speaking out of both sides of your mouth by claiming that we have a free will to choose at any given point in our lives, but then saying that if they walk away that they were never saved at all. Can you see the contradiction here?

  28. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    This is why Protestants argue with each other, because you all believe something different from the other. Calvinism vs Arminianism, perseverance of the saints vs the free will, faith in faith doctrines, no repentance needed doctrines. Protestants are all over the spiritual and biblical map with what they believe denotes eternal security and salvation. They preach a thousand different gospels and argue with each other all day long and there's a reason that Protestants can not come together in their doctrinal beliefs.
    I don't consider myself a Protestant, I'm just a Christian. None of the rest of what you said has to do with this topic.

    Perseverance of the saints is spawned from John Calvin--whether it's the belief in Predestination in this life or OSAS in this life. It all denotes that one can not lose their salvation in this life. These doctrines breed and encourage corrupt lives and violence assuring people that no matter what they do or how they live they "can not fall from grace or lose their salvation in this life". These false teachings were dreamed up by the reformers to refute the Catholic faith. They didn't just want their freedom from the Catholic church--they wanted to pervert the Gospel of Christ as well and create another Jesus of their own making saying that nothing you do in this life will affect your eternal security after making a statement of confession that you believe in Christ.
    You have been consistently avoiding direct questions to you, or direct points brought up in response to your posts. So, evidently the only thing you have now is to attack the idea of eternal security through your wording, or by claiming it was "spawned" from Calvin.

    I'm sorry, but I don't care about Calvin, I only care about what the bible says, what GOD says.

    This absolute garbage being taught that we don't have to repent of anything after a one time confession of belief is insane and it's beyond me as to who could believe something like that other than someone who wanted to live a life outside of the will of God and still believe they're saved and remain in the state of elect no matter what they do or how they live.
    No one said that. And that is absolutely NOT what I believe.

    But, as I said on the previous page (a post you ignored) the idea that we have to constantly ask for forgiveness in order to get re-saved every 5 minutes or else go to hell is one of the most absurd, unChristian things I have ever heard.

    We should repent and regularly do a "heart check" and make sure we are right with God, because we should always be in a right relationship with God. But not because we go back and forth from "saved" to "unsaved" then to "saved" then back to "unsaved" every 5 minutes. That shows a complete misunderstanding on what salvation is.

    Think about how you raise your own children for goodness sakes. Do you tell them that they'll always be rewarded for bad behavior? So if they grow up to be some violent rapist and murderer who's turned their life over to satan that you'll still love who they are and what they've become because you gave birth to them and that they'll always be welcome back into your home and trust? Are these the people God wants to inherit the Kingdom of heaven?
    Another straw man. Nobody has said that kids should be rewarded for bad behavior. As for the point you are trying to make, that has been addressed a number of times. If you read and respond to my posts point by point (instead of replying with a long chunk of text that is unrelated to the post you're replying to) then you will see that has been addressed.

    Think about what you're believing and advocating because Charles Stanley teaches the very same thing as I just stated claiming there's nothing anyone can do to lose their salvation after they've confessed belief just once in their life. Do not sit here and tell me that "they were never saved"---if you believe that a one time confession is all that saves--then by that same logic---they were once saved and chose by their own free will to walk away from God and abandon His will.
    You seem awfully concerned about all sorts of scenarios that have already been explained repeatedly. So I can only assume you are ignoring posts. And you seem awfully concerned about how "unjust" it would be if someone were to do a one time confession, then live a life of sin.

    Terry, you are showing a lack of faith in God AND, in a way, you are trying to play God.

    God knows what He's doing. He can do His job just fine. Nobody is going to pull the wool over His eyes. He knows our hearts, and to me it seems obvious that someone who would do a half-hearted, empty one-time confession then return to a life of sin is NOT truly saved, so you don't have to worry about the "injustice" that you perceive. But ultimately all of this is GOD'S call, not ours.

    And He knows how to do His job, we don't have to worry about that.

    TC is absolutely correct stating that believing in the "free will" and the OSAS doctrine contradict one another. What good is believing that people have a free will if you believe that people never have or will use their free will to abandon their belief and faith in Christ. Even FF sees the illogical state of belief here believing in Predestination alone as he does, which is also wrong, but it makes more sense to believe that we don't have a free will and that we've been Predestined--even though that doctrine is wrong as well.

    None of this garbage was taught until the 15th century and the reformers perverted the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
    Again, no answers to any questions or points, all you are doing at this point is trying to badmouth a doctrine (by calling it "garbage" or "spawned", etc).

    I don't know any Calvinists (irl), but all the non-Catholic Christians I know believe in eternal security. It is biblical.

    I've taken the time to answer your post point by point, so please respond to my posts point by point.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  29. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    He will *never leave us*. People can and do walk away from Christ though and although God said He's patient and gives mankind "space to repent"--He knows when a person will never return to Him and cuts them off for good at some point knowing their hearts. This does not mean that they were "never saved"--it means they used their own free will to walk away.
    Read Romans 8:38-39, and pay close attention to the words "nor ANY created thing." That includes ourselves.

    OSAS people do not understand what Hebrews 6:4 is saying. Because Hebrews 6:4 contradicts your interpretation of other scriptures talking about a future event after this life that you believe is talking about this life--as in "can not snatch them out of the Fathers hands". That is a future event in the next life. People can walk away and they can be snatched out of the Fathers hands during the course of this life by their own free will to choose opposite God and fall back into sin.
    There are a couple different interpretations of Hebrews 6:4, but I don't have the time right now to get into an in-depth bible study on that passage. But I will say one thing. It goes against your view, because it is indicating that you can't go back and forth from saved to unsaved then back to saved again.

    A person is either saved or they're not. It isn't a back and forth thing, and one can't be a "little bit saved" just as you can't be "a little bit pregnant."

    If we were OSAS--after a one-time confession--it would not be possible to "fall back" into sin. One has to be *free from sin* at some point before they can fall back into it. Use the God given common sense logic in this case.
    We are forgiven of all our sins, but that doesn't mean we will never again sin (in this life, in this fallen world.) We will not be free from sin until heaven.

    You're speaking out of both sides of your mouth by claiming that we have a free will to choose at any given point in our lives, but then saying that if they walk away that they were never saved at all. Can you see the contradiction here?
    No, there's no contradiction, you are just misunderstanding. I don't believe in Calvinism. I've just been saying that there are SOME people who might consider themselves to be Christians, and then later walk away thinking, "This is all BS." But the problem is that they never went through regeneration and were never sealed with the Holy Spirit. It was never a matter of them not having free will, it was simply that they never actually got saved.

    This is not that difficult. I don't know why you are not understanding, or trying to make it more difficult than it is.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  30. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    So then does that mean that we lose our free will after we become saved?
    No, we still have free will, but as always, that free will has certain parameters.

    I don't want to assume anything, but I have to say, you seem very opposed to the idea that we can't get away from God whenever we want to.

    Why is that? Do you think that there is something better than God in this universe? Do you think that one can ever have true peace and happiness apart from God?
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  31. #117
    Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is NOT justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall NO flesh be justified.
    Ga 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
    Ga 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
    Ga 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
    Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
    Ga 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

    Ga 5:1 ¶ Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
    Ga 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
    Ga 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
    Ga 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
    Experience teaches us that it is much easier to prevent an enemy from posting themselves than it is to dislodge them after they have got possession.
    ~ George Washington

  32. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Annie View Post
    Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is NOT justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall NO flesh be justified.
    Ga 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
    Ga 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
    Ga 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
    Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
    Ga 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

    Ga 5:1 ¶ Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
    Ga 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
    Ga 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
    Ga 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
    So glad you posted that, I don't know how much more clear it can get! Amen, Miss Annie!
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  33. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    No, we still have free will, but as always, that free will has certain parameters.
    By parameters, do you mean constraints? Because that's the only part of it we are talking about here. We're not discussing whether or not you have the free will to choose cereal or oatmeal for breakfast. We're talking specifically about whether you have the free will to reject God after having accepted God. If the answer is no, then we do not have free will in this context.
    Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. -Douglas Hofstadter

    Life, Liberty, Logic

  34. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    No, we still have free will, but as always, that free will has certain parameters.

    I don't want to assume anything, but I have to say, you seem very opposed to the idea that we can't get away from God whenever we want to.

    Why is that? Do you think that there is something better than God in this universe? Do you think that one can ever have true peace and happiness apart from God?
    It doesn't seem like you really believe in "free will" in the sense that I do. I believe that God gives us the choice of whether or not we want to serve him and whether or not we want to follow him. God doesn't force us to come to him and to serve him. If you believe that we make the choice to follow God and serve God, as I do, then I don't really see why you also don't believe that we have the choice to turn our back on God and walk away from our faith.



  35. Remove this section of ads by registering.
Page 4 of 8 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast


Similar Threads

  1. Cops Finish Granny's Grocery Shopping After Purse Snatch
    By Indy Vidual in forum Open Discussion
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-13-2014, 03:20 PM
  2. Replies: 36
    Last Post: 04-03-2013, 10:17 PM
  3. [VIDEO] Eagle Tries To Snatch Baby?
    By S.Shorland in forum Open Discussion
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 12-19-2012, 09:01 PM
  4. Red Alert: Obama to snatch up to 75% of your income
    By AmericasLastHope in forum Economy & Markets
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 05-26-2010, 10:58 PM
  5. Replies: 12
    Last Post: 02-08-2008, 09:28 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •