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Thread: No man can snatch them out of my hand

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post


    Ad hominem fallacy. "Don't dare think for yourself you blasphemer!" There is not a person on earth who gets off of a sinking ship onto a rescue ship that thinks it was "about him" just because he got on the rescue ship rather than swimming away to the sharks. What is "absurd" is the argument that believing you have the freewill to accept or reject salvation somehow makes salvation about "you". It doesn't.
    The objection you're responding against is ridiculous. Because Jesus has made me a moral agent, able to choose between good and evil doesn't mean it isn't His power or sacrifice that makes me so. But you know what? I can't think of anything more holy than a God that loves me enough to give me a choice in teh matter and make it about me. God is not a narcissist who needs constant reassurance or finds the strength of others weakens Him. God lifts us, gives us strength, ordains us with eternal power and loses none of His own. What a little god some people worship, who is threatened by His children.



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  3. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin007 View Post
    you didn't answer the question. Are they still your son? The answer is yes.

    if my child murders someone, do they still deserve prison? Yes. Likewise with Hell.

  4. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    if my child murders someone, do they still deserve prison? Yes. Likewise with Hell.
    Hell is more like getting life in prison or capital punishment for stealing a penny. Infinitely severe punishment for temporal, finite crimes.
    Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. -Douglas Hofstadter

    Life, Liberty, Logic

  5. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashland View Post
    Hell is more like getting life in prison or capital punishment for stealing a penny. Infinitely severe punishment for temporal, finite crimes.
    Rejecting the gift Jesus is offering, isn't a temporal, finite crime.

  6. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    It doesn't seem like you really believe in "free will" in the sense that I do. I believe that God gives us the choice of whether or not we want to serve him and whether or not we want to follow him. God doesn't force us to come to him and to serve him. If you believe that we make the choice to follow God and serve God, as I do, then I don't really see why you also don't believe that we have the choice to turn our back on God and walk away from our faith.
    Of course we we have the choice to serve God or not, and of course God doesn't force us to come to Him, we come to Him WILLINGLY.

    As I already stated, once we are saved, we are no longer the same. There is a very real event that takes place, that changes us, we have a new nature, a new heart. We no longer want what we used to want, we no longer want to be our own boss. Of course sanctification doesn't happen overnight, but it happens, and in goes in the direction of holiness and spiritual maturity.

    And after we're saved, I believe we still have the choice on "how far" we want to go in terms of our walk with God. Some people want to devote every moment of their life to serving God. Other people may be far less zealous and far less active for God. That's their choice, because God doesn't force us. That is why - as Kevin stated - there are different levels of rewards, and THAT is where works come in.... not to determine our salvation, but the level of rewards in heaven.

    We have an entire lifetime to decide whether we want God or not. If a person really wants to reject God, I believe they have that right. I have been saying over and over that a person who would do that was never truly saved in the first place. No true believer who has been regenerated and has experienced God in their life would choose to reject God.

    But you didn't answer my question. Why do you seem to fear not being able to go back and forth? Do you fear commitment to God? And my other question was, do you think there is something in the universe that is better than God? Do you think a person can have true peace and joy apart from God? Please answer.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  7. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    Rejecting the gift Jesus is offering, isn't a temporal, finite crime.
    Its really too bad BOTH Nang and SF are banned ATM... because one of them would almost certainly try to debate against the "Jesus is offering a gift" terminology... I'm not knowledgeable enough to do so so I won't...

  8. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    Its really too bad BOTH Nang and SF are banned ATM... because one of them would almost certainly try to debate against the "Jesus is offering a gift" terminology... I'm not knowledgeable enough to do so so I won't...
    That's good, because I rarely post because I don't wish to argue.

  9. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    Rejecting the gift Jesus is offering, isn't a temporal, finite crime.
    Yes it is, because you only have a limited amount of time to accept it. For a choice that you might have 70 years (being generous) to make, if you fail to make that choice in 70 years, then you will be punished for
    1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years. Then raise that number to the power of itself. And then that's just a drop in the bucket of how severely you will be punished, and you will never again get a chance to make it right through all of eternity, for the mistake you made during the few seconds you were alive on earth.
    Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. -Douglas Hofstadter

    Life, Liberty, Logic



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  11. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashland View Post
    Yes it is, because you only have a limited amount of time to accept it. For a choice that you might have 70 years (being generous) to make, if you fail to make that choice in 70 years, then you will be punished for
    1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years. Then raise that number to the power of itself. And then that's just a drop in the bucket of how severely you will be punished, and you will never again get a chance to make it right through all of eternity, for the mistake you made during the few seconds you were alive on earth.
    And people still wonder why they were born. Sigh..... it's only a lifetime.

  12. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    if my child murders someone, do they still deserve prison? Yes. Likewise with Hell.
    So you believe David is in hell?
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  13. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    But you didn't answer my question. Why do you seem to fear not being able to go back and forth? Do you fear commitment to God? And my other question was, do you think there is something in the universe that is better than God? Do you think a person can have true peace and joy apart from God? Please answer.
    I don't want to go back and forth. I have no intention of ever abandoning my faith. I've just come to the conclusion that the doctrine of eternal security is false after reading the Bible and coming to my own conclusions, not worrying about church tradition and what other people think. It's as simple as that.

    The answer to your second question is "no," I don't think that a person can have true peace and joy apart from God

  14. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashland View Post
    Yes it is, because you only have a limited amount of time to accept it. For a choice that you might have 70 years (being generous) to make, if you fail to make that choice in 70 years, then you will be punished for
    1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years. Then raise that number to the power of itself. And then that's just a drop in the bucket of how severely you will be punished, and you will never again get a chance to make it right through all of eternity, for the mistake you made during the few seconds you were alive on earth.
    What's your view on my view that I've presented that I believe that the unsaved are thrown into the lake of fire and perish there, and are dead for all eternity. Do you think that's an unfair punishment?

  15. #133
    OSAS can not be true based upon these scriptures. No one is eternally secure until they've finished this life--All of the scriptures clearly say that it "MIGHT BE" and that we have "THE HOPE" of salvation based upon our enduring till the end of this life. Our salvation is most certainly conditional upon us enduring till the end of this life--until then we have the hope and that it might be if we continually walk in the spirit of the Lord. You can not choose yourself and presume upon God that He's already chosen you.


    "MIGHT BE"


    63.Romans 3:26
    To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
    Romans 3:25-27 (in Context) Romans 3 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    64.Romans 4:11
    And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
    Romans 4:10-12 (in Context) Romans 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    65.Romans 4:16
    Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
    Romans 4:15-17 (in Context) Romans 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    66.Romans 4:18
    Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
    Romans 4:17-19 (in Context) Romans 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    67.Romans 6:6
    Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
    Romans 6:5-7 (in Context) Romans 6 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    68.Romans 7:13
    Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
    Romans 7:12-14 (in Context) Romans 7 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    69.Romans 8:4
    That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    Romans 8:3-5 (in Context) Romans 8 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    70.Romans 8:29
    For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    Romans 8:28-30 (in Context) Romans 8 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    71.Romans 9:17
    For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
    Romans 9:16-18 (in Context) Romans 9 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    72.Romans 10:1
    Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
    Romans 10:1-3 (in Context) Romans 10 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    73.Romans 11:19
    Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
    Romans 11:18-20 (in Context) Romans 11 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    74.Romans 14:9
    For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
    Romans 14:8-10 (in Context) Romans 14 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    75.Romans 15:16
    That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
    76.1 Corinthians 5:2
    And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
    1 Corinthians 5:1-3 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 5 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    77.1 Corinthians 9:23
    And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
    1 Corinthians 9:22-24 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 9 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    78.2 Corinthians 4:10
    Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
    2 Corinthians 4:9-11 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    79.2 Corinthians 4:11
    For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
    2 Corinthians 4:10-12 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    80.2 Corinthians 5:4
    For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
    2 Corinthians 5:3-5 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 5 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    81.2 Corinthians 5:21
    For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
    2 Corinthians 5:20-21 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 5 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    82.2 Corinthians 8:9
    For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
    2 Corinthians 8:8-10 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 8 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    83.2 Corinthians 9:5
    Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren, that they would go before unto you, and make up beforehand your bounty, whereof ye had notice before, that the same might be ready, as a matter of bounty, and not as of covetousness.
    2 Corinthians 9:4-6 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 9 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    84.2 Corinthians 11:7
    Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely?
    2 Corinthians 11:6-8 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 11 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    85.Galatians 2:16
    Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
    Galatians 2:15-17 (in Context) Galatians 2 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    86.Galatians 3:22
    But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
    Galatians 3:21-23 (in Context) Galatians 3 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    87.Galatians 3:24
    Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
    Galatians 3:23-25 (in Context) Galatians 3 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    88.Ephesians 3:10
    To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
    Ephesians 3:9-11 (in Context) Ephesians 3 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    89.Ephesians 3:19
    And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
    Ephesians 3:18-20 (in Context) Ephesians 3 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    90.Colossians 1:9
    For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
    Colossians 1:8-10 (in Context) Colossians 1 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    91.Colossians 2:2
    That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
    Colossians 2:1-3 (in Context) Colossians 2 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    92.1 Thessalonians 2:16
    Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
    1 Thessalonians 2:15-17 (in Context) 1 Thessalonians 2 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    93.2 Thessalonians 2:6
    And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
    2 Thessalonians 2:5-7 (in Context) 2 Thessalonians 2 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    94.2 Thessalonians 2:10
    And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    2 Thessalonians 2:9-11 (in Context) 2 Thessalonians 2 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    95.2 Thessalonians 2:12
    That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
    2 Thessalonians 2:11-13 (in Context) 2 Thessalonians 2 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    96.2 Timothy 4:17
    Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.
    2 Timothy 4:16-18 (in Context) 2 Timothy 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    97.Titus 3:8
    This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    We have "THE HOPE"

    10.Acts 16:19
    And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers,
    Acts 16:18-20 (in Context) Acts 16 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    11.Acts 23:6
    But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
    Acts 23:5-7 (in Context) Acts 23 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    12.Acts 26:6
    And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God, unto our fathers:
    Acts 26:5-7 (in Context) Acts 26 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    13.Acts 28:20
    For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
    Acts 28:19-21 (in Context) Acts 28 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    14.Galatians 5:5
    For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
    Galatians 5:4-6 (in Context) Galatians 5 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    15.Ephesians 1:18
    The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
    Ephesians 1:17-19 (in Context) Ephesians 1 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    16.Colossians 1:5
    For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
    Colossians 1:4-6 (in Context) Colossians 1 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    17.Colossians 1:23
    If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
    Colossians 1:22-24 (in Context) Colossians 1 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    18.Colossians 1:27
    To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
    Colossians 1:26-28 (in Context) Colossians 1 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    19.1 Thessalonians 5:8
    But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
    1 Thessalonians 5:7-9 (in Context) 1 Thessalonians 5 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    20.Titus 3:7
    That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
    Titus 3:6-8 (in Context) Titus 3 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    21.Hebrews 3:6
    But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
    Hebrews 3:5-7 (in Context) Hebrews 3 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    22.Hebrews 6:18
    That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
    Hebrews 6:17-19 (in Context) Hebrews 6 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    23.1 Peter 3:15
    But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
    1.Job 14:19
    The waters wear the stones: thou washest away the things which grow out of the dust of the earth; and thou destroyest the hope of man.
    Job 14:18-20 (in Context) Job 14 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    2.Job 27:8
    For what is the hope of the hypocrite, though he hath gained, when God taketh away his soul?
    Job 27:7-9 (in Context) Job 27 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    3.Job 41:9
    Behold, the hope of him is in vain: shall not one be cast down even at the sight of him?
    Job 41:8-10 (in Context) Job 41 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    4.Proverbs 10:28
    The hope of the righteous shall be gladness: but the expectation of the wicked shall perish.
    Proverbs 10:27-29 (in Context) Proverbs 10 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    5.Proverbs 11:7
    When a wicked man dieth, his expectation shall perish: and the hope of unjust men perisheth.
    Proverbs 11:6-8 (in Context) Proverbs 11 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    6.Jeremiah 14:8
    O the hope of Israel, the saviour thereof in time of trouble, why shouldest thou be as a stranger in the land, and as a wayfaring man that turneth aside to tarry for a night?
    Jeremiah 14:7-9 (in Context) Jeremiah 14 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    7.Jeremiah 17:13
    O Lord, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the Lord, the fountain of living waters.
    Jeremiah 17:12-14 (in Context) Jeremiah 17 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    8.Jeremiah 50:7
    All that found them have devoured them: and their adversaries said, We offend not, because they have sinned against the Lord, the habitation of justice, even the Lord, the hope of their fathers.
    Jeremiah 50:6-8 (in Context) Jeremiah 50 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    9.Joel 3:16
    The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
    Joel 3:15-17 (in Context) Joel 3 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    Last edited by Terry1; 09-17-2014 at 08:21 PM.

  16. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    I don't want to go back and forth. I have no intention of ever abandoning my faith. I've just come to the conclusion that the doctrine of eternal security is false after reading the Bible and coming to my own conclusions, not worrying about church tradition and what other people think. It's as simple as that.

    The answer to your second question is "no," I don't think that a person can have true peace and joy apart from God
    Thanks for the reply. I'm just curious, do you believe that Jesus died for only our past sins? Or for our past, present and future sins?

    In other words, do you agree with the view of some churches that believers have to get saved everyday, in a sense, crucifying the Son of God over and over.

    And I'm sorry, but I have one more question. When God said said that once we are truly saved, we receive eternal life.... if a person later "loses their salvation" was that life they received eternal or just temporary?
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  17. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    Thanks for the reply. I'm just curious, do you believe that Jesus died for only our past sins? Or for our past, present and future sins?

    In other words, do you agree with the view of some churches that believers have to get saved everyday, in a sense, crucifying the Son of God over and over.
    I think that Jesus died for all our sins, past, present, and future. But I think the Bible teaches that confessing our sins is a requirement for being forgiven for our sins. That doesn't mean that if you look at a woman lustfully and then get hit by a bus and die before you confess that sin you're going to get thrown in hell, but it means that you can't just habitually sin, think that there's nothing wrong with it, and not ask for forgiveness for your sins. Jesus died for all of our sins, but he didn't die simply to give us a license to sin. Confessing your sins and having a contrite heart is necessary for the forgiveness of sins.

    1 John 1: 9

    If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

    And I'm sorry, but I have one more question. When God said said that once we are truly saved, we receive eternal life.... if a person later "loses their salvation" was that life they received eternal or just temporary?
    Can you tell me what verse you're referring to specifically?

  18. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    What's your view on my view that I've presented that I believe that the unsaved are thrown into the lake of fire and perish there, and are dead for all eternity. Do you think that's an unfair punishment?
    My gut reaction to that is a lot more favorable. To me, going back to being dead isn't really a punishment - I see it as being the same as it was before existing in the first place, which really wasn't so bad if I recall. I would still have a big problem with the method by which God decides who perishes and who doesn't. But in terms of my issue with Hell, I don't really have a problem with it in your view, because in that case Hell basically doesn't exist, at least not in the same sense as other people refer to it.
    Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. -Douglas Hofstadter

    Life, Liberty, Logic



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  20. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    I think that Jesus died for all our sins, past, present, and future. But I think the Bible teaches that confessing our sins is a requirement for being forgiven for our sins. That doesn't mean that if you look at a woman lustfully and then get hit by a bus and die before you confess that sin you're going to get thrown in hell, but it means that you can't just habitually sin, think that there's nothing wrong with it, and not ask for forgiveness for your sins. Jesus died for all of our sins, but he didn't die simply to give us a license to sin. Confessing your sins and having a contrite heart is necessary for the forgiveness of sins.

    1 John 1: 9

    If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
    Those two views are contradictory. If Jesus died for ALL our sins (not just our past sins) then it makes no sense to say that we have to repeatedly ask for forgiveness in order to maintain our salvation.

    However, I do agree that we should always confess our sins to God and continually make sure we are in a right relationship with God.

    But there is a difference between confessing our sins and repenting in order to restore our relationship with God, and confessing and repenting in order to maintain our salvation. The latter is a misunderstanding of salvation.

    I said this before a few times on the thread, but the word "saved" is meaningless if we have to keep getting saved after every sin.

    We are told to confess and repent in order to be right with God, our heavenly Father, not in order to maintain our salvation.

    Again, we are either saved or we're not saved. It is not a back and forth or partial thing!

    Can you tell me what verse you're referring to specifically?
    "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." John 5:24

    "For God so loved the world, that He gave His [a]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." John 3:16

    "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:40

    "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23


    "but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life." John 4:14


    and more....

    If one is truly saved, they receive eternal life... that is what God says. So, if a person is truly saved and then rejects or "loses" their salvation, was that life they received eternal? Or was it temporary?
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  21. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    Those two views are contradictory. If Jesus died for ALL our sins (not just our past sins) then it makes no sense to say that we have to repeatedly ask for forgiveness in order to maintain our salvation.
    Then why does 1 John 1: 9 state that confessing your sins is a prerequisite for the forgiveness of sins? The verse doesn't say "if you sin, God will forgive you no matter what." The verse says that if you confess your sins, he will forgive you of your sins. So that verse is clear that maintaining a relationship with God and confessing your sins to him is a requirement for being forgiven of your sins.

  22. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." John 5:24

    "For God so loved the world, that He gave His [a]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." John 3:16

    "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:40

    "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23


    "but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life." John 4:14


    and more....

    If one is truly saved, they receive eternal life... that is what God says. So, if a person is truly saved and then rejects or "loses" their salvation, was that life they received eternal? Or was it temporary?
    All those verses say is that you're required to hear his word and believe in him in order to receive eternal life. As long as you continue to hear his word and believe in him, you will receive eternal life. But Jesus was also clear that only those who persevere until the end will be saved. Having a one time confession of faith when you were young isn't enough to make it to heaven. You have to be a believer until the end of your life to be saved.

    Matthew 24: 13

    But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

  23. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    It doesn't seem like you really believe in "free will" in the sense that I do. I believe that God gives us the choice of whether or not we want to serve him and whether or not we want to follow him. God doesn't force us to come to him and to serve him. If you believe that we make the choice to follow God and serve God, as I do, then I don't really see why you also don't believe that we have the choice to turn our back on God and walk away from our faith.
    Because of several reasons. One- if you are truly saved, the Holy Spirit dwells in you - Believer's are SEALED until the day of redemption. Secondly, Jesus said "I will never leave you or forsake you. If you have accepted Jesus as Savior, He is not leaving and you are not either. Free will is still in play- to sin- because that is what we do- we sin while we are still in the flesh.

    Thirdly- you are only looking at this from a human perspective. God the Father sees us as positionally perfect through His Son as Believer's. Sins after conversion do not jeapordize our eternal salvation. God will and can let bad things happen to us to wake us up or get back on the right track- but He will never force us to (free will). God lets His children go through trails and pain to teach us something and/or because we are not listening (and other reasons for His glory).

    I'm not sure what the trouble with OSAS is from other Christians. The OSAS "camp" believes that Jesus paid the penalty for all our sins. ALL MEANS ALL. Past/present/future. Jesus died for us while we were STILL SINNERS. God the Father knows every single sin we will commit in our lives. Nothing is a surprise to Him.

    The most important question in the universe- our eternal salvation; why would He leave us guessing? We are either saved or not saved. Those who are not saved can still come to the Savior before they die. Calvin/ Luther were only mere sinful men. I do not agree with everything either teaches and neither should you agree with everything someone teaches. Look in your Bible and pray to God to let the Holy Spirit guide you in all truth.

    I truly believe that when we accept Christ as our Savior, the Holy Spirit was working on our heart for a long time BEFORE we confessed Him as our Lord. ANY PERSON can go up to an alter call and lie to themselves and others- but not to God. He sees the heart. Staying in Gods "good graces" does not require constantly repenting every single sin. I bet almost anything all of us have sinned many times today WITHOUT EVEN KNOWING OR REPENTING; or we forget to repent- and guess what? Those sins are covered by the blood too.
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

  24. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    All those verses say is that you're required to hear his word and believe in him in order to receive eternal life. As long as you continue to hear his word and believe in him, you will receive eternal life. But Jesus was also clear that only those who persevere until the end will be saved. Having a one time confession of faith when you were young isn't enough to make it to heaven. You have to be a believer until the end of your life to be saved.

    Matthew 24: 13

    But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
    show me one person, or 2 is better- who were saved in the NT and lost their salvation. Judas was not saved and I already posted info on that. But - EVEN IF Judas was saved then not (He wasn't) why would God only have ONE SINGLE man lose his salvation out of the entire NT if it was such a dangerous understanding of Scripture?
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

  25. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    Then why does 1 John 1: 9 state that confessing your sins is a prerequisite for the forgiveness of sins? The verse doesn't say "if you sin, God will forgive you no matter what." The verse says that if you confess your sins, he will forgive you of your sins. So that verse is clear that maintaining a relationship with God and confessing your sins to him is a requirement for being forgiven of your sins.
    Maintaining a good relationship, yes, but we are still in a relationship with Him. Does the Holy Spirit just get up and leave a Believer? Than come back again after you repent? Please show me in the Bible where this happened? Does a relationship with your friend end just because they had sinned against you? Does the relationship sever because of one unrepented sin? Of course not! How much more stronger is that bond with God? Esp. since the Believer has the Holy Spirit in them, who convicts them of that sin(s).
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

  26. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    All those verses say is that you're required to hear his word and believe in him in order to receive eternal life. As long as you continue to hear his word and believe in him, you will receive eternal life. But Jesus was also clear that only those who persevere until the end will be saved. Having a one time confession of faith when you were young isn't enough to make it to heaven. You have to be a believer until the end of your life to be saved.

    Matthew 24: 13

    But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
    this verse isn't talking about us now. It is talking about the TRIBULATION. Believer's will be long gone before then. Read the entire chapter for CORRECT CONTEXT.
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

  27. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    OSAS can not be true based upon these scriptures. No one is eternally secure until they've finished this life--All of the scriptures clearly say that it "MIGHT BE" and that we have "THE HOPE" of salvation based upon our enduring till the end of this life. Our salvation is most certainly conditional upon us enduring till the end of this life--until then we have the hope and that it might be if we continually walk in the spirit of the Lord. You can not choose yourself and presume upon God that He's already chosen you.


    "MIGHT BE"


    63.Romans 3:26
    To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
    Romans 3:25-27 (in Context) Romans 3 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    64.Romans 4:11
    And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
    Romans 4:10-12 (in Context) Romans 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    65.Romans 4:16
    Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
    Romans 4:15-17 (in Context) Romans 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    66.Romans 4:18
    Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
    Romans 4:17-19 (in Context) Romans 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    67.Romans 6:6
    Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
    Romans 6:5-7 (in Context) Romans 6 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    68.Romans 7:13
    Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
    Romans 7:12-14 (in Context) Romans 7 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    69.Romans 8:4
    That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    Romans 8:3-5 (in Context) Romans 8 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    70.Romans 8:29
    For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    Romans 8:28-30 (in Context) Romans 8 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    71.Romans 9:17
    For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
    Romans 9:16-18 (in Context) Romans 9 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    72.Romans 10:1
    Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
    Romans 10:1-3 (in Context) Romans 10 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    73.Romans 11:19
    Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
    Romans 11:18-20 (in Context) Romans 11 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    74.Romans 14:9
    For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
    Romans 14:8-10 (in Context) Romans 14 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    75.Romans 15:16
    That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
    76.1 Corinthians 5:2
    And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
    1 Corinthians 5:1-3 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 5 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    77.1 Corinthians 9:23
    And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
    1 Corinthians 9:22-24 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 9 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    78.2 Corinthians 4:10
    Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
    2 Corinthians 4:9-11 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    79.2 Corinthians 4:11
    For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
    2 Corinthians 4:10-12 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    80.2 Corinthians 5:4
    For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
    2 Corinthians 5:3-5 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 5 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    81.2 Corinthians 5:21
    For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
    2 Corinthians 5:20-21 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 5 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    82.2 Corinthians 8:9
    For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
    2 Corinthians 8:8-10 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 8 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    83.2 Corinthians 9:5
    Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren, that they would go before unto you, and make up beforehand your bounty, whereof ye had notice before, that the same might be ready, as a matter of bounty, and not as of covetousness.
    2 Corinthians 9:4-6 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 9 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    84.2 Corinthians 11:7
    Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely?
    2 Corinthians 11:6-8 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 11 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    85.Galatians 2:16
    Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
    Galatians 2:15-17 (in Context) Galatians 2 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    86.Galatians 3:22
    But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
    Galatians 3:21-23 (in Context) Galatians 3 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    87.Galatians 3:24
    Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
    Galatians 3:23-25 (in Context) Galatians 3 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    88.Ephesians 3:10
    To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
    Ephesians 3:9-11 (in Context) Ephesians 3 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    89.Ephesians 3:19
    And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
    Ephesians 3:18-20 (in Context) Ephesians 3 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    90.Colossians 1:9
    For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
    Colossians 1:8-10 (in Context) Colossians 1 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    91.Colossians 2:2
    That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
    Colossians 2:1-3 (in Context) Colossians 2 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    92.1 Thessalonians 2:16
    Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
    1 Thessalonians 2:15-17 (in Context) 1 Thessalonians 2 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    93.2 Thessalonians 2:6
    And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
    2 Thessalonians 2:5-7 (in Context) 2 Thessalonians 2 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    94.2 Thessalonians 2:10
    And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    2 Thessalonians 2:9-11 (in Context) 2 Thessalonians 2 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    95.2 Thessalonians 2:12
    That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
    2 Thessalonians 2:11-13 (in Context) 2 Thessalonians 2 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    96.2 Timothy 4:17
    Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.
    2 Timothy 4:16-18 (in Context) 2 Timothy 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    97.Titus 3:8
    This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    We have "THE HOPE"

    10.Acts 16:19
    And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers,
    Acts 16:18-20 (in Context) Acts 16 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    11.Acts 23:6
    But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
    Acts 23:5-7 (in Context) Acts 23 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    12.Acts 26:6
    And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God, unto our fathers:
    Acts 26:5-7 (in Context) Acts 26 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    13.Acts 28:20
    For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
    Acts 28:19-21 (in Context) Acts 28 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    14.Galatians 5:5
    For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
    Galatians 5:4-6 (in Context) Galatians 5 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    15.Ephesians 1:18
    The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
    Ephesians 1:17-19 (in Context) Ephesians 1 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    16.Colossians 1:5
    For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
    Colossians 1:4-6 (in Context) Colossians 1 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    17.Colossians 1:23
    If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
    Colossians 1:22-24 (in Context) Colossians 1 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    18.Colossians 1:27
    To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
    Colossians 1:26-28 (in Context) Colossians 1 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    19.1 Thessalonians 5:8
    But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
    1 Thessalonians 5:7-9 (in Context) 1 Thessalonians 5 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    20.Titus 3:7
    That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
    Titus 3:6-8 (in Context) Titus 3 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    21.Hebrews 3:6
    But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
    Hebrews 3:5-7 (in Context) Hebrews 3 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    22.Hebrews 6:18
    That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
    Hebrews 6:17-19 (in Context) Hebrews 6 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    23.1 Peter 3:15
    But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
    1.Job 14:19
    The waters wear the stones: thou washest away the things which grow out of the dust of the earth; and thou destroyest the hope of man.
    Job 14:18-20 (in Context) Job 14 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    2.Job 27:8
    For what is the hope of the hypocrite, though he hath gained, when God taketh away his soul?
    Job 27:7-9 (in Context) Job 27 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    3.Job 41:9
    Behold, the hope of him is in vain: shall not one be cast down even at the sight of him?
    Job 41:8-10 (in Context) Job 41 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    4.Proverbs 10:28
    The hope of the righteous shall be gladness: but the expectation of the wicked shall perish.
    Proverbs 10:27-29 (in Context) Proverbs 10 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    5.Proverbs 11:7
    When a wicked man dieth, his expectation shall perish: and the hope of unjust men perisheth.
    Proverbs 11:6-8 (in Context) Proverbs 11 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    6.Jeremiah 14:8
    O the hope of Israel, the saviour thereof in time of trouble, why shouldest thou be as a stranger in the land, and as a wayfaring man that turneth aside to tarry for a night?
    Jeremiah 14:7-9 (in Context) Jeremiah 14 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    7.Jeremiah 17:13
    O Lord, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the Lord, the fountain of living waters.
    Jeremiah 17:12-14 (in Context) Jeremiah 17 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    8.Jeremiah 50:7
    All that found them have devoured them: and their adversaries said, We offend not, because they have sinned against the Lord, the habitation of justice, even the Lord, the hope of their fathers.
    Jeremiah 50:6-8 (in Context) Jeremiah 50 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    9.Joel 3:16
    The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
    Joel 3:15-17 (in Context) Joel 3 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

    Most of the scriptures having nothing to do with OSAS. Besides I can give you twice the amount proving OSAS.
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.



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  29. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin007 View Post
    show me one person, or 2 is better- who were saved in the NT and lost their salvation. Judas was not saved and I already posted info on that. But - EVEN IF Judas was saved then not (He wasn't) why would God only have ONE SINGLE man lose his salvation out of the entire NT if it was such a dangerous understanding of Scripture?
    Isn't a good thing Judas did what he did? Maybe if he hadn't done what he did, Jesus wouldn't have been crucified.
    Isn't it a good thing Jesus was crucified?
    Imagine how lost we would be if He hadn't died for our sins.

  30. #146
    What About Hebrews 6?

    Now we're ready to look at Hebrews 6:4-6, a passage so often often cited in opposition to Eternal Security. Please remember that the entire letter was written to Jewish believers who were being enticed back into keeping the Law, so the context is New Covenant vs. Old. (The reason this letter is in the Bible is that this is still going on today, only now it concerns both Jews and Gentiles.) In Hebrews 6:1-3 the writer said that he was now going beyond the elementary teachings concerning salvation and in verse 9 he confirmed that he'd been talking about things that accompany salvation. That tells us that verses 4-6 are not related to salvation (Union) but to things that accompany it (Fellowship). We know this because the idea that a believer could do something to irretrievably lose his salvation is in direct contradiction to the clear promise that the Holy Spirit is sealed within us from the very first moment of belief until the day of our redemption.
    So what could these believers do that would be considered falling away? Remember, they were Jews who had tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, the Church. They were being admonished to return to the Old Covenant, to find remedies for their ongoing sin in the daily sacrifices.
    And what could prevent them from being restored? Continuing to practice those remedies rather than simply confessing. By doing so they'd be relegating the death of the Lord to the same status as that of the twice-daily lamb. The Law was only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves. Once the Reality appeared, the shadow was no longer effective. And what would be their penalty? Loss of Fellowship. Living a defeated life, bearing no fruit, all their works burned in the judgment of 1 Cor. 3. But still saved? Yes.
    So, the warning of Hebrews 6 is against interrupting our Fellowship with God, not breaking our Union with Him. The key is the phrase "renew again to repentance." Those who relied on the daily sacrifice instead of confessing directly to God were in effect crucifying the Lord all over again, since He is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. The daily sacrifice was a foreshadowing of Him, and when He came the shadow gave way to the reality. The old way was no longer sufficient to restore them to fellowship. The modern application of this is going back to relying on our own works to keep ourselves saved, instead of trusting God to keep us.
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

  31. #147
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

  32. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    Isn't a good thing Judas did what he did? Maybe if he hadn't done what he did, Jesus wouldn't have been crucified.
    Isn't it a good thing Jesus was crucified?
    Imagine how lost we would be if He hadn't died for our sins.
    AMEN BROTHER Judas was def. not saved- committing the greatest sin ever, but God knew it beforehand and used it for good.
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

  33. #149
    I truly believe that when we accept Christ as our Savior, the Holy Spirit was working on our heart for a long time BEFORE we confessed Him as our Lord. ANY PERSON can go up to an alter call and lie to themselves and others- but not to God. He sees the heart. Staying in Gods "good graces" does not require constantly repenting every single sin. I bet almost anything all of us have sinned many times today WITHOUT EVEN KNOWING OR REPENTING; or we forget to repent- and guess what? Those sins are covered by the blood too.
    I don't agree with TC's position, but I don't think you're representing it correctly. TC isn't saying that if you sin you lose your salvation immediately unless you repent. I think he's saying that a long time pattern of sin with a deliberate failure to repent can cause one to lose salvation. I'm not sure if he thinks it depends on the sin.

  34. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    I don't agree with TC's position, but I don't think you're representing it correctly. TC isn't saying that if you sin you lose your salvation immediately unless you repent. I think he's saying that a long time pattern of sin with a deliberate failure to repent can cause one to lose salvation. I'm not sure if he thinks it depends on the sin.
    well, why would God leave us hanging? One sin is too many- One sin separates us from God, no? 2, 3, 30- where is the "line" drawn? exactly.............
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

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