Adrian Peterson indicted after giving his son a 'whooping'

[kylejack]

Yes, we have a lot of people to train against using violence. Children are often easier to reason with than police officers.

[otherone]

Must you continue the cycle? Yes, it is personal, of course. Most people who were hit also hit their kids...it's part of Adrian Peterson's excuse/rationalization, and about half the people here as well. This isn't about a logical defense of your abuse, it's about a social norm you guys refuse to analyze in any logical way.

It wasn't an insult...it was not a replacement for a logical argument (ad hominem)...it is directly pertinent to the subject and part of why people support abuse like this. I'm hardly the first person in the thread to bring this up.

Would your opinion be affected if you found out your opponent wasn't spanked as a child?

[jmdrake]

Parsing semantics isn't changing my point (we aren't talking about carrying a child gently out of a public place if they throw a fit - we're talking about striking them as a form of correction). Replace the word "assault" with "non-defensive and non-accidental force used to correct behavior" if you like. Point stands. You guys are still rationalizing the hell out of it. If you aren't defending your child by jerking them back from a street before they walk in front of a car, then it is wrong to be jerking them about by the arm (unless accidental, of course). That's why I said DEFENSE...and you can defend them from themselves if they are going to harm themselves via ignorance. Parents aren't tyrants for this...they are tyrants for striking children or humiliating them or threatening them when it isn't a defensive reasoning, and is instead trying to be used as a corrective measure (which just teaches them bullying and violent dispute resolution).

And last I checked, if a child is kicking and screaming, but is at the age of reason, then the parent failed in points before this via a lack of preparation. When not in public, I suggest hovering over them and waiting it out (do NOT taunt them). When in public, I suggest gently carrying them out of the place...and scolding yourself for something you've done to program them to think this is a good way to act when they want their way. I know too many parents using peaceful parenting techniques (or have previously, and now have raised their kids to adults) who faced this so rarely it isn't even worth discussing. Kids act that way based on how you programmed them. Do you yell in front of them at your wife? Do you throw fits of rage? Does your wife? Does some person you expose the child to, like a babysitter or family member? Just as empathy is a learned behavior, so is throwing a fit with any regularity.

And of course special needs kids require special attention and may do things we don't like, but striking them isn't the answer either.

LOL. You've obviously not had much experience with children.

[otherone]

Yes, we have a lot of people to train against using violence. Children are often easier to reason with than police officers.

'we'?

[ProIndividual]

It's appropriate for me...

And I haven't had to change my position...

Enjoy your logically consistent moral superiority in your front room it doesn't hold water out here in the real world.

I'm willing to wager it won't even hold water through your first kid........

But it sure sounds good..

So, you support assaulting people who aren't a threat to you, and when it isn't an accident. No one needs to debate you further...you're part of the problem we are all fighting then...and not just in parenting. If you think libertarian moral theory doesn't hold water in the real world, and initiating coercion against innocents is okay, then why not steal? Murder? Rape?

You have no logical consistency, and therefore are no authority on what works or doesn't work in the real world. Your worldview is disturbed...likely from being abused as a child. Some survivors of abuse are permanently $#@!ed up...we can't save everyone.

And 20% or so of people in the USA don't hit their kids. Their kids have on average higher IQs, lower rates of violence, lower rates of addiction, promiscuity, obesity, cancer, etc. than kids who are hit in varying degrees of intensity and frequency. You're inventing your own reality to ignore these facts. Even spanking, being low intensity (and usually low frequency) abuse, causes increased possibilities of all those things we should all wish to avoid for our kids.

OH THE HORRORS OF THAT UNWORKABLE FORM OF PARENTING! /sarcasm

Get real...get educated...stop rationalizing your abuse because of your kids or your parents' abuse of you.

(This reminds me of a family that helped raise me when I left home as a young teen, and they claimed I was wrong...yet their daughters were obese and became alcoholics, and were promiscuous. They are walking examples of the truth behind this...but instead of admitting the problem, and changing, they now raise some of their grandkids due to the dysfunction of their daughters, and hit them too...genius! The ego protects us from the pain of truth all too often.)

[ProIndividual]

LOL. You've obviously not had much experience with children.

I obviously do...I just don't let my ego get in the way of admitting what I do wrong. I was one of the older kids in house with 10 of us. I also raised my ex's brother's kids because he was a nut and his old lady was a drug whore. I also regularly babysit my brother's kids. We aren't all abusive and impervious to truth.

[tod evans]

Gosh now I feel intellectually inferior and morally repugnant......

[ProIndividual]

'we'?

He was referring to the human species, I'd bet. About 20% of Americans alone don't hit their children as a form of correction. In other countries with lower violence and obesity rates it is even higher.

[ProIndividual]

Gosh now I feel intellectually inferior and morally repugnant......

Your sarcasm isn't a logical argument in opposition. It's just a form of deflection so you don't have to feel bad for the damage you've already done.

[otherone]

I obviously do...I just don't let my ego get in the way of admitting what I do wrong. I was one of the older kids in house with 10 of us. I also raised my ex's brother's kids because he was a nut and his old lady was a drug whore. I also regularly babysit my brother's kids. We aren't all abusive and impervious to truth.

How did you reprimand or discipline these youngsters that you were responsible for teaching to be productive, well-adjusted adults?

[ProIndividual]

I get the feeling many of the people here would rather keep pretending they didn't act in a way that gave their children worse chances at success in life statistically than to change and fix the problem.

Your first job as a parent is to protect your kids and give them the best possible chance of success in life. Your ego shouldn't be more important than that. But for some, it clearly is. I'm out of this cesspool of abusive parents. It's like trying to explain music to the deaf.

[CPUd]

[ProIndividual]

How did you reprimand or discipline these youngsters that you were responsible for teaching to be productive, well-adjusted adults?

Why do you assume punishment is necessary in parenting? If you want an answer to this question, then read up on peaceful parenting. You aren't really asking because you want to know, anymore than people who ask "but who will build the roads" want to know how a stateless society would provide these services. You, like them, think it's a "gotcha!" question. Educate yourself...I'm not staying around here anymore. There are enough books, videos, research, studies, etc. out there. If you really give $#@!, look it up.

But I'll give you a clue...punishment isn't part of the equation. Preparation is. You'd be surprised how little kids act up when you don't hit them, scream at them, belittle them, humiliate them, etc. (or do those things to other people in front of them).

And like the question "but who will pick the cotton if we get rid of slavery", the answer isn't pragmatic...it's ethical. The answer shouldn't be "well, we'll find oil, refine oil, and invent machines to do the labor cheaper". Pragmatic answers that are plausible or actually feasible aren't important, even if you have them. The answer should be "who gives a $#@!, it is WRONG."

Slavery was wrong. The state is wrong. Hitting innocent people to correct behavior is wrong. Humiliation, yelling, etc. are wrong. The fact you think reprimanding and disciplinary methods are the only ways to parent shows exactly how little research you did into the subject...and therefore how little you really care about the answers or being the best parent you can be.

[tod evans]

I'm out of this cesspool of abusive parents. It's like trying to explain music to the deaf.

Aw shucks.

[otherone]

I'm out of this cesspool of abusive parents. It's like trying to explain music to the deaf.

It may be helpful to have some ACTUAL experience of music before attempting to instruct others.

[RonPaulIsGreat]

You should just give up, they are just sadists.

[otherone]

Why do you assume punishment is necessary in parenting?

I didn't say 'punishment'. I asked about discipline...consequences for poor behavior?

[jmdrake]

I obviously do...I just don't let my ego get in the way of admitting what I do wrong. I was one of the older kids in house with 10 of us. I also raised my ex's brother's kids because he was a nut and his old lady was a drug whore. I also regularly babysit my brother's kids. We aren't all abusive and impervious to truth.

If you think you can "gently" carry a kicking screaming kid out of a story, then you are delusional. There was a recent story were a girl was kicking and screaming so hard that she and her brother got away from an abductor. While that was a good outcome, it underscores that you really could not have had any real experience with what you are pontificating about. The fact that you wish to "blame the parents" for a child having a tantrum is more evidence of cluelessness. And "hover over them"? What a joke! I'm sure you'll come back with your claims of great experience with child rearing. But I'm letting you know up front that I won't believe a word you have to say.

[otherone]

But I'm letting you know up front that I won't believe a word you have to say.

Hold old are your kids, Jim?

[Christian Liberty]

Assault is defined as any unwelcome contact that is harmful or offensive. If you grab someone's arm and drag them out of the store, unless you have just reason to arrest them, you have assaulted them. I hope you can see where I'm going with this. If anything that is legally an assault when done to an adult is an assault when done to a child then even the act of picking little Johnny up when he's on the floor kicking and screaming and carrying him out to your car without ever spanking him becomes illegal. So all that's left for the parents to do is to call the cops and let the cops assault them for real. That's why we have toddlers being taken away from kindergarten in handcuffs. The teachers can't do anything but call the cops. Soon parents won't be able to do anything but call the cops as well.

If/when that happens I think its time to fight, with or without the Molyneux people...

[jmdrake]

Hold old are your kids, Jim?

They are 12. For the record I haven't spanked them in years. The last time I was going to was when one had punched the other in the eye. But once I found out what had happened I learned that the other had talked a neighbor boy into throwing sticks at his brother. So I told the one who had been punched "I didn't spank your brother because you deserved to get hit." I'm not sure what's the point of that anecdote except that I chuckle to myself every time I tell it and I could use a little laughter these days.

[otherone]

They are 12. For the record I haven't spanked them in years. The last time I was going to was when one had punched the other in the eye. But once I found out what had happened I learned that the other had talked a neighbor boy into throwing sticks at his brother. So I told the one who had been punched "I didn't spank your brother because you deserved to get hit." I'm not sure what's the point of that anecdote except that I chuckle to myself every time I tell it and I could use a little laughter these days.

Thanks for the reply. You are right in the thick of things! My son is 27; my daughter 25. I recall the toughest thing to deal with when they were little was the fighting.

[otherone]

dup

[kylejack]

'we'?

We, as in those of us who are opposed to the initiation of force.

[69360]

I get the feeling many of the people here would rather keep pretending they didn't act in a way that gave their children worse chances at success in life statistically than to change and fix the problem.

Your first job as a parent is to protect your kids and give them the best possible chance of success in life. Your ego shouldn't be more important than that. But for some, it clearly is. I'm out of this cesspool of abusive parents. It's like trying to explain music to the deaf.

My kids are both middle school aged honor roll students, well adjusted and behaved, can think for themselves, take care of themselves and have lots of friends.

Once and while when they were little they got their butts smacked to stop a tantrum or for something particularly awful.

Sorry I don't fit into your statistic.

I think you are better off letting this go until you get some kids of your own. Watching somebody elses doesn't count. Kids behave the worst for their own parents.

[amy31416]

That would be terrifying as an adult (unless you were into that sort of thing), but damn--a 4 year-old? Imagine this huge beast that you're supposed to rely on and trust starts beating the snot out of you.

It makes the world a bad place to be. I can't make decisions for everyone, but if you're going to hit another human being, I think it ought to be in self-defense. Violence doesn't teach anyone anything good.

[amy31416]

My kids are both middle school aged honor roll students, well adjusted and behaved, can think for themselves, take care of themselves and have lots of friends.

Once and while when they were little they got their butts smacked to stop a tantrum or for something particularly awful.

Sorry I don't fit into your statistic.

I think you are better off letting this go until you get some kids of your own. Watching somebody elses doesn't count. Kids behave the worst for their own parents.

There are appropriate uses--I grabbed and yanked my daughter's hair to keep her from running into a busy street. I also smacked her hand to keep her away from a hot stove, but Jesus....walloping on a child is wrong on so many levels when there are many other ways. It's the easy way, not the right way.

[69360]

There are appropriate uses--I grabbed and yanked my daughter's hair to keep her from running into a busy street. I also smacked her hand to keep her away from a hot stove, but Jesus....walloping on a child is wrong on so many levels when there are many other ways. It's the easy way, not the right way.

My mom was a hair puller. She used to rip out chunks. You'd learn real fast to never do that again.

I turned out fine.

The hitting with the stick was excessive. But it wasn't a serious injury, it was some scratches. My kids have come in from normal play with worse. He knew he went to far, admitted his mistake. It wasn't a situation for government.

A quick smack on the butt to shock a young child out of a tantrum or to stop them from beating up a sibling isn't abuse or walloping on your kid.

[Snew]

My mom was a hair puller. She used to rip out chunks. You'd learn real fast to never do that again.

I turned out fine.

For the umpteenth time, that doesn't make it right!

[jbauer]

Well, one of them did marry Jesse Benton..............................

Everyone here who is at least tacitly supporting switching/spanking/smacking should be aware that Ron Paul didn't even yell at his children, let alone hit them.

They seem to have turned out OK.

"Mrs. Paul was a stay-at-home mom, longtime Girl Scout troop leader and self-described “busybody” who prided herself on knowing exactly what everyone was doing. If one of the children misbehaved, her husband did not spank or yell. Instead, he sometimes gave them written assignments, Mrs. Paul said, explaining, “He believed in exercising the brain.”"

Imagine that. It is possible to raise children without hitting them. Who would have guessed?!