Insightful Abraham Lincoln Quote

[Rond]

Meditation on the Divine Will, a private note that Lincoln did not intend for public consumption, written in September 1862, he put his thoughts on paper:


”The will of God prevails. In great contests each party claims to act in accordance with the will of God. Both may be, and one must be wrong. God cannot be for and against the same thing at the same time. In the present civil war it is quite possible that God’s purpose is something different from the purpose of either party - and yet the human instrumentalities, working just as they do, are of the best adaptation to effect His purpose. I am most ready to say this is probably true - that God wills this contest, and wills that it shall not end yet. By his mere quiet power, on the minds of the now contestants, He could have either saved or destroyed the Union without a human contest. Yet the contest began. And having begun He could give the final victory to either side any day. Yet the contest proceeds.”

John Robbins comments on this:

Lincoln understood the sovereignty of God in human affairs quite well. Therefore he did not claim, as the clergy did, that God was on the side of the North. He thought that at least one side (and he did not say which side) must be wrong, and both may be wrong. He regarded it as quite possible that God’s purposes were quite different from the purposes of the combatants. He possessed none of the messianic fervor that had caused the war and would contribute to more wars in America’s future.

[Christian Liberty]

John Robbins comments on this:

Much as I respect John Robbins, his hatred of the Confederacy and his seeming admiration for Lincoln is one thing I'll never agree with. I do wonder if he ever argued about this with Ron Paul

I do not think that someone who murders 600,000 people in a "civil war" and does not repent of it (I'm talking about Lincoln here, obviously) can possibly be a truly regenerate Christian, however much he may seem like he understands God's sovereignty.

Why not simply condemn Lincoln as the mass murderer and tyrant that he was? I mean, its not like Robbins failed being labeled as unpopular in any other area... why fall short here?

[Rond]

Much as I respect John Robbins, his hatred of the Confederacy and his seeming admiration for Lincoln is one thing I'll never agree with. I do wonder if he ever argued about this with Ron Paul

I do not think that someone who murders 600,000 people in a "civil war" and does not repent of it (I'm talking about Lincoln here, obviously) can possibly be a truly regenerate Christian, however much he may seem like he understands God's sovereignty.

Why not simply condemn Lincoln as the mass murderer and tyrant that he was? I mean, its not like Robbins failed being labeled as unpopular in any other area... why fall short here?

Lincolns salvation is not the focus of that quote. Abraham Lincoln said several times that he wasn't a Christian. Lincoln in that quote was merely relating the general consensus of the time in regards to God's sovereignty....but the important thing is that he was rejecting foreign policy messianism.

As far as the North/South debates....I used to be really interested in it, but I don't agree with either side. If you want to study something that will blow your mind, study about how Rome and the Papacy supported the South.

[Christian Liberty]

Lincolns salvation is not the focus of that quote. Abraham Lincoln said several times that he wasn't a Christian. Lincoln in that quote was merely relating the general consensus of the time....but the important thing is that he was rejecting foreign policy messianism.

As far as the North/South debates....I used to be really interested in it, but I don't agree with either side. If you want to study something that will blow your mind, study about how Rome and the Papacy supported the South.

I'm not sure why it matters who Rome supported. A stopped clock is right twice a day. Rome supports the Trinity, that doesn't mean Arianism is true

I don't completely support the CSA either. But I do think they had a right to secede and to defend their territory from Lincolnian aggression. That's the real issue for me. Yes, the south kept slaves, and nobody has the right to keep slaves. Both sides had privately owned slaves, and both sides had publicly owned slaves ("the draft.") Both sides restricted civil liberties. So I could see how you could say it was evil v evil. Even still, the south had a right to secede and to defend territory. Lincoln had no right to invade.

[KingNothing]

Much as I respect John Robbins, his hatred of the Confederacy and his seeming admiration for Lincoln is one thing I'll never agree with.

What is wrong with hating people who approved of slavery, such as the Confederates? Admiring Lincoln, as a politician and thoughtful person is fine, too. He was a TERRIBLE president and a tyrant, but he wasn't a whisker-twisting super villain hell-bent on destroying humanity. He was an effective politician placed in an extraordinary circumstance, and he acted the way a smart, cunning, self-important, politician would act.

Your views are relatively childish. There's room for nuance, and you should consider it once and a while.

[thoughtomator]

When you understand what Lincoln actually did, this quote comes off as him calling himself God.

[brushfire]

Government has a way of glorifying itself. While growing up, I'd never really looked closely at our own political deities. I found it very unusual to see other countries do this, until I realized - hey, we do the same thing...











It may seem extreme to compare and contrast this, but I'm concerned about politicians who want to spend my money in order to glorify themselves. I think true statesman arent looking for memorials, and wouldn't be ok with having the people's money used to erect a larger than life statue demonstrating their status in society.

What's odd about lincoln is how the man is given an out for all the horrible things he's said and done. Perhaps it was the time period, but these same people dont give Jefferson an out. Its the selective portrayal of history which makes these statues in DC look much like other world politicians in the past. ...very disturbing to me.

Just to head this one off - I am not a racist, or advocate of slavery. I dont hate gays, or poor people, and I dont want teachers to be slaughtered in the streets... Just wanted to get those potential accusations addressed up front.

[torchbearer]

[NewRightLibertarian]

Lincoln was a tyrant and an imperialist warmonger. That is the official libertarian take on 'the great emancipator.'

[torchbearer]

Lincoln was a tyrant and an imperialist warmonger. That is the official libertarian take on 'the great emancipator.'

that great emancipation was only for the southern states in which he had no jurisdiction.
The American flag is the flag of our conqueror, not our savior.

[NewRightLibertarian]

that great emancipation was only for the southern states in which he had no jurisdiction.
The American flag is the flag of our conqueror, not our savior.

Well said. If you're a 'libertarian' and you're running around spouting the propaganda and lies about this piece of garbage and his reign of terror, you're not much of one.

[Ronin Truth]

What is wrong with hating people who approved of slavery, such as the Confederates? Admiring Lincoln, as a politician and thoughtful person is fine, too. He was a TERRIBLE president and a tyrant, but he wasn't a whisker-twisting super villain hell-bent on destroying humanity. He was an effective politician placed in an extraordinary circumstance, and he acted the way a smart, cunning, self-important, politician would act.

Your views are relatively childish. There's room for nuance, and you should consider it once and a while.

Read some DiLorenzo on Lincoln.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/author/thomas-dilorenzo/

[Christian Liberty]

What is wrong with hating people who approved of slavery, such as the Confederates? Admiring Lincoln, as a politician and thoughtful person is fine, too. He was a TERRIBLE president and a tyrant, but he wasn't a whisker-twisting super villain hell-bent on destroying humanity. He was an effective politician placed in an extraordinary circumstance, and he acted the way a smart, cunning, self-important, politician would act.

Your views are relatively childish. There's room for nuance, and you should consider it once and a while.

When did I say he was a "whisker-twisting super villian hell-bent at destroying humanity"? He was a terrible President and a tyrant, which was my point.

I don't think the Confederacy was all good or anything like that, but I do think their side of the war was justified, in the sense that they were defending their land against invasion. I read Robbins articles on the CSA awhile back and even though I like Robbins a lot, I remember thinking he was too generous toward the north and too pro-north. That doesn't mean I think the confederacy was full of saints or that Lincoln was a comic book villain. I do think Lincoln was probably the 3rd or 4th worse POTUS in history though.

[TheTexan]

[NewRightLibertarian]

When did I say he was a "whisker-twisting super villian hell-bent at destroying humanity"? He was a terrible President and a tyrant, which was my point.

I don't think the Confederacy was all good or anything like that, but I do think their side of the war was justified, in the sense that they were defending their land against invasion. I read Robbins articles on the CSA awhile back and even though I like Robbins a lot, I remember thinking he was too generous toward the north and too pro-north. That doesn't mean I think the confederacy was full of saints or that Lincoln was a comic book villain. I do think Lincoln was probably the 3rd or 4th worse POTUS in history though.

No, you just don't get it. Any libertarian should respect 'effective, cunning, self-important' politicians who waged unnecessary war. To do otherwise might offend the folks at the New York Times and the intellectual ivory tower establishment, and that can't happen. We have to be a *serious* movement, after all.

[Christian Liberty]

No, you just don't get it. Any libertarian should respect 'effective, cunning, self-important' politicians who waged unnecessary war. To do otherwise might offend the folks at the New York Times and the intellectual ivory tower establishment, and that can't happen. We have to be a *serious* movement, after all.

lol

[TheTexan]

Lincoln sacrificed hundreds of thousands of lives, including his own, to give us a more perfect Union. $#@!ing hero. By now this Union is so perfect, I don't know how it can get more perfecter. Thanks Lincoln!

[heavenlyboy34]

that great emancipation was only for the southern states in which he had no jurisdiction.
The American flag is the flag of our conqueror, not our savior.

+rep