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Thread: State Religion

  1. #1

    State Religion


    Full Definition of STATE RELIGION
    : a religion established by law as the only official religion of a state
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dicti...ate%20religion

    In all of recorded human history, has this combo EVER turned out well for the people? Was it ever a really really good idea?

    Why/Why not?



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  3. #2
    State religion?

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  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dicti...ate%20religion

    In all of recorded human history, has this combo EVER turned out well for the people? Was it ever a really really good idea?

    Why/Why not?
    Forget the "religion" part and tell me when the State has ever turned out well for people

  5. #4
    “I'm real, Ron, I'm real!” — Rick Santorum
    “Congratulations.” — Ron Paul¹

  6. #5

    Do you think a state religion was required for that "Golden Age" to occur? Did the people mainly benefit or just TPTB?

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    Forget the "religion" part and tell me when the State has ever turned out well for people
    If I forget the "religion" part, I'd have to use a different forum. Well, maybe with a state totally full of Satanists?

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    State religion?

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    Change the channel, please.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Change the channel, please.
    I'm afraid all the channels on the Tee-Vee are bought and paid for..

    At least the interwebs give a person differing opinions to choose from if he's incapable of forming his own....

    On track with your OP......Homogenizing religion has never stood the test of time.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dicti...ate%20religion

    In all of recorded human history, has this combo EVER turned out well for the people? Was it ever a really really good idea?

    Why/Why not?
    I contend that the state was a by-product of religion. I can't think of a single ancient state who's leader was either was not divine, or not divinely authorized to rule.
    You better have a real powerful leprechaun in your pocket to keep the sheep in the fold.
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    I contend that the state was a by-product of religion. I can't think of a single ancient state who's leader was either was not divine, or not divinely authorized to rule.
    You better have a real powerful leprechaun in your pocket to keep the sheep in the fold.
    And make sure there's not a feisty little dog around to pull back the curtain.
    1. Don't lie.
    2. Don't cheat.
    3. Don't steal.
    4. Don't kill.
    5. Don't commit adultery.
    6. Don't covet what your neighbor has, especially his wife.
    7. Honor your father and mother.
    8. Remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy.
    9. Don’t use your Higher Power's name in vain, or anyone else's.
    10. Do unto others as you would have them do to you.

    "For the love of money is the root of all evil..." -- I Timothy 6:10, KJV

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesiv1 View Post
    And make sure there's not a feisty little dog around to pull back the curtain.


    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    I contend that the state was a by-product of religion. I can't think of a single ancient state who's leader was either was not divine, or not divinely authorized to rule.
    You better have a real powerful leprechaun in your pocket to keep the sheep in the fold.
    The Bible claims Satan controls ALL human governments. I'm starting to have similar suspicions of human religions too.

    Religion and politics are both the very same thing. They are both only, very old and very effective, means to control large masses of people. It has always only been that way, and it always only will be.

    The ends do NOT justify the means.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    I contend that the state was a by-product of religion. I can't think of a single ancient state who's leader was either was not divine, or not divinely authorized to rule.
    You better have a real powerful leprechaun in your pocket to keep the sheep in the fold.
    Rothbard, Oppenheimer, and everyone else who's written seriously about the history of Statism that I know of disagrees with you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    The Bible claims Satan controls ALL human governments. I'm starting to have similar suspicions of human religions too.
    Religion and politics are both the very same thing. They are both only, very old and very effective, means to control large masses of people. It has always only been that way, and it always only will be.

    The ends do NOT justify the means.
    States have a better history of oppressing/destroying religious communities than being "the same thing". Religion/religious or sacred philosophy is, thus far, the only sound way to answer the question of "why ought the government or people do/not do x?". Everything else is just someone's humble opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    If I forget the "religion" part, I'd have to use a different forum. Well, maybe with a state totally full of Satanists?
    Satan is the god of satanists....
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Rothbard, Oppenheimer, and everyone else who's written seriously about the history of Statism that I know of disagrees with you.
    Awesome Appeal to Authority, comrade! HUGZ!
    Out of curiosity, does Rothbard, Oppenheimer, and everyone else mention ANY formative state that did not claim authority to rule from supernatural powers?
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Religion/religious or sacred philosophy is, thus far, the only sound way to answer the question of "why ought the government or people do/not do x?". Everything else is just someone's humble opinion.
    Blessed be the clergy.

    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    Awesome Appeal to Authority, comrade! HUGZ!
    That's not an appeal to authority. https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority It's disagreement with a positive claim. My point was to bring light to the fact that Ronin's claim had no evidence behind it.

    Do you kids take logic and argumentation classes before you hit teh internetz nowadays or do you just throw $#@! at the digital wall and see what sticks?

    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    Out of curiosity, does Rothbard, Oppenheimer, and everyone else mention ANY formative state that did not claim authority to rule from supernatural powers?
    Not that I know of, as that was not their concern during their writing. You tell me-did ANY formative state not claim authority to rule from supernatural powers?
    Last edited by heavenlyboy34; 09-02-2014 at 07:01 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    That's not an appeal to authority. It's disagreement with a positive claim.
    yeah. by appealing to authority.



    You tell me-did ANY formative state not claim authority to rule from supernatural powers?
    I know of none. I'm actually trying to find one. I can't. What I gather is that claiming supernatural authorization has always been the justification of rulers (up to the 20th century, where "the common good" was substituted for divinity). Please prove my wrong; I welcome changing my view!
    Seriously...can you think of one?
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Do you think a state religion was required for that "Golden Age" to occur? Did the people mainly benefit or just TPTB?
    I wouldn't suggest the religion of the Caliphate soley was responsible for the Islamic Golden era, but it's tolerance to other ideologies and promotion of education in general helped stimulate this productivity. People too often associate religion with rigidity and dogmatism.

    When I think of Islam as a state religion, in a pure sense (like if we used the Rashidun Caliphate as the gold standard, since it was the purest form) I think it implies that:

    1 - Secular education is a must (Islam for example promoted finding cures for diseases)
    2 - Tolerance to minorities (So the state benefitted from the Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, etc. rather than oppressing them)
    3 - Allowing competing ideologies to exist (In Islam ikhtilaaf (difference of opinion) is not looked down upon, its promoted. This enabled debates and open dialogues rather than competing opinions being shut down.. unfortunately, in later times people were imprisoned for these differences of opinions)

    These elements are inherent in an Islamic theocracy, that's why education, philosophy, innovation all flourished up until the sacking of Baghdad really.

    But in short if the question is, has a state with an official religion (a theocracy, or theocracy-esque state) ever flourished, contributed to society, had more positive than negative impact on the world, the answer is yes in my opinion. Just look at Andalusia if that wasn't a success I don't know what is.
    “I'm real, Ron, I'm real!” — Rick Santorum
    “Congratulations.” — Ron Paul¹

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    yeah. by appealing to authority.





    I know of none. I'm actually trying to find one. I can't. What I gather is that claiming supernatural authorization has always been the justification of rulers (up to the 20th century, where "the common good" was substituted for divinity). Please prove my wrong; I welcome changing my view!
    Seriously...can you think of one?
    China until the Chou Dynasty or so, IIRC.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    China until the Chou Dynasty or so, IIRC.
    thanks.
    I'll check it out
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  26. #23
    Hereditary Shang kings ruled over much of North China, and Shang armies fought frequent wars against neighboring settlements and nomadic herders from the north. The Shang capitals were centers of sophisticated court life for the king, who was the shamanistic head of the ancestor- and spirit-worship cult.

    http://factsanddetails.com/china/cat2/sub2/item42.html

    Not much is known of the Xia dynasty that predates the Shang.
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Muwahid View Post
    I wouldn't suggest the religion of the Caliphate soley was responsible for the Islamic Golden era, but it's tolerance to other ideologies and promotion of education in general helped stimulate this productivity. People too often associate religion with rigidity and dogmatism.

    When I think of Islam as a state religion, in a pure sense (like if we used the Rashidun Caliphate as the gold standard, since it was the purest form) I think it implies that:

    1 - Secular education is a must (Islam for example promoted finding cures for diseases)
    2 - Tolerance to minorities (So the state benefitted from the Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, etc. rather than oppressing them)
    3 - Allowing competing ideologies to exist (In Islam ikhtilaaf (difference of opinion) is not looked down upon, its promoted. This enabled debates and open dialogues rather than competing opinions being shut down.. unfortunately, in later times people were imprisoned for these differences of opinions)

    These elements are inherent in an Islamic theocracy, that's why education, philosophy, innovation all flourished up until the sacking of Baghdad really.

    But in short if the question is, has a state with an official religion (a theocracy, or theocracy-esque state) ever flourished, contributed to society, had more positive than negative impact on the world, the answer is yes in my opinion. Just look at Andalusia if that wasn't a success I don't know what is.
    The acquisition of Persian, Greek, and Roman ideas, texts, scholars and technology must have helped along with the Silk Road.
    Last edited by Paulbot99; 09-02-2014 at 11:43 PM.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    States have a better history of oppressing/destroying religious communities than being "the same thing". Religion/religious or sacred philosophy is, thus far, the only sound way to answer the question of "why ought the government or people do/not do x?". Everything else is just someone's humble opinion.
    Religions and state religions have done at least, and maybe more than, their share of the historic oppressing/destroying. Aristotle, Plato, Hobbes, Locke, Mill, Kant, Hegel, Rand, LeFevre, Rothbard, to name just a few, have some pretty impressive and superior humble opinions on governments compared to most others.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    Satan is the god of satanists....
    So that's why they're called that. I've often wondered.

  31. #27
    So if a religion spawns a Satan controlled state, at what point exactly did the Satanic influence and control enter the picture?

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Muwahid View Post
    I wouldn't suggest the religion of the Caliphate soley was responsible for the Islamic Golden era, but it's tolerance to other ideologies and promotion of education in general helped stimulate this productivity. People too often associate religion with rigidity and dogmatism.

    When I think of Islam as a state religion, in a pure sense (like if we used the Rashidun Caliphate as the gold standard, since it was the purest form) I think it implies that:

    1 - Secular education is a must (Islam for example promoted finding cures for diseases)
    2 - Tolerance to minorities (So the state benefitted from the Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, etc. rather than oppressing them)
    3 - Allowing competing ideologies to exist (In Islam ikhtilaaf (difference of opinion) is not looked down upon, its promoted. This enabled debates and open dialogues rather than competing opinions being shut down.. unfortunately, in later times people were imprisoned for these differences of opinions)

    These elements are inherent in an Islamic theocracy, that's why education, philosophy, innovation all flourished up until the sacking of Baghdad really.

    But in short if the question is, has a state with an official religion (a theocracy, or theocracy-esque state) ever flourished, contributed to society, had more positive than negative impact on the world, the answer is yes in my opinion. Just look at Andalusia if that wasn't a success I don't know what is.
    Thanks for algebra and zero and for whatever else the west ripped off.
    Last edited by Ronin Truth; 09-03-2014 at 12:53 PM.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    So if a religion spawns a Satan controlled state, at what point exactly did the Satanic influence and control enter the picture?
    I don't know. But, I'm not saying religion is always good. Just that it isn't always bad.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    I don't know. But, I'm not saying religion is always good. Just that it isn't always bad.

    "By their fruits, ye shall know them."

    And yet after X,000+ years of guessing and trying, it still doesn't seem that anyone has really figured it out or gotten it straight.

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