Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 58

Thread: Somalia

  1. #1

    Somalia

    Often in discussions about anarcho-capitalism people bring up moving to Somalia. I honestly do not know much about Somalia. Is Somalia an ancap society, and if it is, does its system "work"?



  2. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  3. #2
    Al-Shabaab is attempting to capture the territory as an islamic state.

    We just dropped bombs a few hours ago.
    http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/01/world/...-us-operation/


    per capita GDP of like $200/head;

    MOST Somalians are nomadic goat herders (80%)

    Almost ALL Somalians are Islamic (99.8%)


    Large untapped reserves of natural gas, oil, copper, and notably: uranium.


    There are largely no "property rights" in much of Somalia; if you hold it by force of arms, you own it. There are no diplomas, permits, licenses, etc.

    http://www.worldcrunch.com/world-aff.../#.VAU3wtYewvA


    But its certainly no ancap paradise... Somalia has been in a state of civil war for some time and is generally an unsafe place for "light skinned" people unless you want to end up on a ransom note.
    Last edited by presence; 09-02-2014 at 07:43 AM.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    Al-Shabaab is attempting to capture the territory as an islamic state.

    We just dropped bombs a few hours ago.


    per capita GDP of like $200/head
    Yup,, it seems they attacked one of our CIA Black Bag Prisons, and got someones attention.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  5. #4
    Usually it is brought up by people who argue against minimal government. There is a de jure government in place, but they don't have much real power within the country. Different regions are controlled by different tribal cheftains, each with a militia holding control over resources; it is more like a collection of dictatorships than an ancap society. The UN used to send a lot more aid than what they do now, because the people who need it usually don't get it. A while back, they also had a bad habit of taking over oil tankers and other large cargo ships to hold for ransom. Not so much today, but ships still try to avoid those lanes.

  6. #5
    More of a failed state. Dictator was over thrown in the 90's or so and warlords have controlled their fiefdoms ever since. There is a central government now, but it doesn't control much more than the capital.

    Define works. If you are the one behind the Ak47 it works, if you are the one with the AK pointed at you, you probably think it doesn't.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by CPUd View Post
    There is a de jure government in place, but they don't have much real power within the country.
    A "constitutional federal republic" was created in 2012; its the puppet government to end all puppet governments.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  8. #7
    They're a few bitcoin gold ATMs away from heaven.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  9. #8



  10. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  11. #9


    somalia gets brought up in this great discussion as well

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    Often in discussions about anarcho-capitalism people bring up moving to Somalia.
    Anybody can build a man out of a straw, even little children. Somalia is the name given to an entire country made out of straw! Anarcho-capitalism is the last thing these people want to discuss, thus Somalia.

  13. #11
    So President Obama doesn't have a strategy yet for how to handle the situation with ISIS, but he'll launch a military operation without Congressional approval in a country where there's no pressing national security concern or imminent threat to our national security.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    So President Obama doesn't have a strategy yet for how to handle the situation with ISIS, but he'll launch a military operation without Congressional approval in a country where there's no pressing national security concern or imminent threat to our national security.
    Somalia isn't new.

    Recent US military actions in Somalia*

    January 7 2007 - US gunship attacks militant convoy killing 10
    January 22 2007 - Reported JSOC airstrike against militants
    June 1 2007 - US cruise missile strike kills up to 10 alleged militants, including reportedly from Eritrea, Yemen, UK, Sweden and US
    March 3 2008 - Cruise missile attack from US ships. Six die, though not apparent target.
    May 2008 - US naval-launched cruise missiles kill Aden Hashi Ayro, head of Al Shabab
    September 14 2009 - US Special Forces launch helicopter raid into Somalia, killing Saleh Ali Saleh Nabhan, wanted in connection with Mombassa attacks
    October 19 2009 - US drone reported shot down over southern Somalia
    April 6 2011 - Airstrike kills an al-Shabab commander
    June 23 2011 - Drone strike kills “many”, wounds two al-Shabab leaders
    * The Bureau’s analysis is based on credible reports. However, given the covert nature of US operations this should be viewed as a partial list.
    http://www.thebureauinvestigates.com...-us-drone-war/
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    Often in discussions about anarcho-capitalism people bring up moving to Somalia. I honestly do not know much about Somalia. Is Somalia an ancap society, and if it is, does its system "work"?
    Probably , the place was fine before the 1880's .

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Somalia isn't new.
    No,, it is not.

    it goes all the way back to Bush 1.

    http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articl...urn-in-somalia
    (authored by John $#@!ing Bolton,, and more that a bit skewed)
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  17. #15
    Let me be clear for those who don't "get it." Somalia is the example pro-Statists use to taunt AnCaps, libertarians and voluntaryists when the subject of limited and/or no government is discussed.

    Somalia has been embroiled in a multi-sided civil war since the 1980s. A failed state for decades now, it is largely regarded by most westerners as being a place of lawlessness and violence where the only rule is survival of the fittest. (There is some grounds on which to debate this, but that is the general perception.)

    Have you seen the movie Black Hawk Down? That film was a reasonably accurate depiction of the so-called Battle of Mogadishu in 1993, when U.S. military forces where sent into Somalia to capture a strongman named Mohamed Aidid. A military convoy was ambushed, the subsequent rescue effort bogged down under heavy fire.
    Casualties were heavy and the bodies of U.S. soldiers were dragged through the streets of Mogadishu.

    The U.S. pulled forces out of the area shortly thereafter, and Somalia continued to to be "ruled" by various gang/factions in different areas.

    Remember the spate of "pirate" hijackings of ships in recent years? The pirates operated out of Somalia.

    So the long and short of it is that any time you hear someone suggesting all libertarians move to Somalia, they're basically hurling an insult. The idea they're trying to convey is: "See what happens if you don't have a big, strong central government? You libertarians want every place to look like Somalia. You're crazy! We need government to take care of us!"

    Of course, conflating a state torn apart by a generation of factional civil wars with a community based on consent and mutual respect is utter nonsense. What's more, many of the problems plaguing Somalia can be traced directly to tyrannical overreach by an authoritarian state, which is what caused the nation to break up into civil war in the first place.

    But try convincing a Statist of that.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    So President Obama doesn't have a strategy yet for how to handle the situation with ISIS, but he'll launch a military operation without Congressional approval in a country where there's no pressing national security concern or imminent threat to our national security.
    Haven't you heard? Al Shabab is the next ISIS. If we don't take care of the problem now, they will take over the country then shortly after the entire region will fall to them. They will then set their sites on America and destroy everything we stand for. Therefore, air strikes are needed now to stop this future from happening. This intervention is not like the others. It's different this time.



  19. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  20. #17
    Somalia has a bunch of land that isn't controlled by a 'State' proper.

    If you wanted to try and build an An-Cap society and see how it fared against all-comers Somalia would be a good place to do it.

    An-Caps do like to cite things like its better than average cell phone coverage and functioning economy.

    Of course the phrase, 'go build the thing you are always yammering about' is called 'taunting'.
    Last edited by idiom; 09-03-2014 at 01:10 AM.
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't a thing
    Prostitution is legal
    We have a constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care

  21. #18
    I don't always argue with statists, but when I do I should move to Somalia.

  22. #19
    There is a distinction to be made between Somalia and Somaliland. Anyways, I think Peter Leeson has some interesting work on the subject. (Also, it is pretty much just a juvenile insult backed by little knowledge on their part) I'm sure if you asked these people 10 questions about Somalia / Somaliland they wouldn't know jack $#@!.
    School of Salamanca - School of Austrian Economics - Liberty, Private Property, Free-Markets, Voluntaryist, Agorist. le monde va de lui męme

    "No man hath power over my rights and liberties, and I over no mans [sic]."

    What, sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty.

    www.mises.org
    www.antiwar.com
    An Arrow Against all Tyrants - Richard Overton vis. 1646 (Required reading!)

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Harris View Post
    Thank you, that was very helpful.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by KCIndy View Post
    Let me be clear for those who don't "get it." Somalia is the example pro-Statists use to taunt AnCaps, libertarians and voluntaryists when the subject of limited and/or no government is discussed.

    Somalia has been embroiled in a multi-sided civil war since the 1980s. A failed state for decades now, it is largely regarded by most westerners as being a place of lawlessness and violence where the only rule is survival of the fittest. (There is some grounds on which to debate this, but that is the general perception.)

    Have you seen the movie Black Hawk Down? That film was a reasonably accurate depiction of the so-called Battle of Mogadishu in 1993, when U.S. military forces where sent into Somalia to capture a strongman named Mohamed Aidid. A military convoy was ambushed, the subsequent rescue effort bogged down under heavy fire.
    Casualties were heavy and the bodies of U.S. soldiers were dragged through the streets of Mogadishu.

    The U.S. pulled forces out of the area shortly thereafter, and Somalia continued to to be "ruled" by various gang/factions in different areas.

    Remember the spate of "pirate" hijackings of ships in recent years? The pirates operated out of Somalia.

    So the long and short of it is that any time you hear someone suggesting all libertarians move to Somalia, they're basically hurling an insult. The idea they're trying to convey is: "See what happens if you don't have a big, strong central government? You libertarians want every place to look like Somalia. You're crazy! We need government to take care of us!"

    Of course, conflating a state torn apart by a generation of factional civil wars with a community based on consent and mutual respect is utter nonsense. What's more, many of the problems plaguing Somalia can be traced directly to tyrannical overreach by an authoritarian state, which is what caused the nation to break up into civil war in the first place.

    But try convincing a Statist of that.
    Why do you think Liberterians and Ancaps would have this mutual respect?

    Without laws people do whatever they please to make money, screw respect and consent. That would last about 10 minutes.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by twomp View Post
    Haven't you heard? Al Shabab is the next ISIS. If we don't take care of the problem now, they will take over the country then shortly after the entire region will fall to them. They will then set their sites on America and destroy everything we stand for. Therefore, air strikes are needed now to stop this future from happening. This intervention is not like the others. It's different this time.
    Not every situation is exactly the same.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by 69360 View Post
    Why do you think Liberterians and Ancaps would have this mutual respect?

    Without laws people do whatever they please to make money, screw respect and consent. That would last about 10 minutes.
    What you're doing is called psychological projection.
    You're attributing to others behavior which you can only confirm in yourself.
    I don't pay any attention to the law, except in those cases where the legal system will attempt to put me in a rape cage for ignoring the law. When I show respect or concern for fellow people, it has precisely zero to do with what code says.

    Moreover, the burden of proof that the law has any measurable effect on respect is squarely on YOU. One only needs to walk down the flipping street to find examples where lack of respect is actually reinforced by law.
    Ever been in a place where it's illegal to set up a basketball hoop on your own property?
    How is that showing respect for property owners?
    And that's just the first example that springs to mind. The one that SHOULD have sprung to my mind is how in six days I have to go to court with my wife to see if the county is going to try her, with a potential prison sentence, because my seven year old daughter walked around the block by herself.

    How the $#@! is that respect????

    You statists are always boxing at shadows, always shouting down the conversation with what could be, always projecting your own animal instincts on everyone else in an attempt to maintain control - and always utterly missing the point that things are every bit as bad as you think they would be, here, today, in America.

    I'm not claiming an ancap society would be paradise. I'm fully aware that there would be problems with it.
    I'm also fully aware of how bad things are here, today, how much utter bull$#@! we all put up with on a regular basis and only because we're threatened with death or ass rape, and I've made a conscious, rational decision that I'd much rather try the alternative.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    What you're doing is called psychological projection.
    You're attributing to others behavior which you can only confirm in yourself.
    I don't pay any attention to the law, except in those cases where the legal system will attempt to put me in a rape cage for ignoring the law. When I show respect or concern for fellow people, it has precisely zero to do with what code says.

    Moreover, the burden of proof that the law has any measurable effect on respect is squarely on YOU. One only needs to walk down the flipping street to find examples where lack of respect is actually reinforced by law.
    Ever been in a place where it's illegal to set up a basketball hoop on your own property?
    How is that showing respect for property owners?
    And that's just the first example that springs to mind. The one that SHOULD have sprung to my mind is how in six days I have to go to court with my wife to see if the county is going to try her, with a potential prison sentence, because my seven year old daughter walked around the block by herself.

    How the $#@! is that respect????

    You statists are always boxing at shadows, always shouting down the conversation with what could be, always projecting your own animal instincts on everyone else in an attempt to maintain control - and always utterly missing the point that things are every bit as bad as you think they would be, here, today, in America.

    I'm not claiming an ancap society would be paradise. I'm fully aware that there would be problems with it.
    I'm also fully aware of how bad things are here, today, how much utter bull$#@! we all put up with on a regular basis and only because we're threatened with death or ass rape, and I've made a conscious, rational decision that I'd much rather try the alternative.
    To be fair, most of the statists HERE don't agree with the laws you cite.



  28. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    To be fair, most of the statists HERE don't agree with the laws you cite.
    Well, in the words of Ned Flanders' parents, "We've tried nuthin, and we're all out of ideas!"
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  30. #26
    I have seen so many people try to denounce the claim that Somalia was an anarchic state. People like Stefan Moleyneux would say things like not everybody in the country believed in anarchism i.e. it was just statists without a state or his analogy that it is like nuns without a church. But this line of thinking is wrong, the part of Somalia(I think Somaliland) that was stateless did not have state imposed taxes, people made arrangements for their protection etc etc. There was a very good mises article written about the improvements that came with the dissolution of the govt there. They did not form a government when they could have easily set up one and they would most likely have appreciated the benefits and remained stateless but for the fact that outside forces forced them back into being a state run society.

    So yes, it may not have turned into Switzerland over the 10 or so years the experiment lasted. But great improvement occurred even as they were sanctioned and constantly attacked by neigbouring states, UN and the US. This is doesn't deny the fact that it was an anarcho capitalist state experiment for a short period of time.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by twomp View Post
    Haven't you heard? Al Shabab is the next ISIS. If we don't take care of the problem now, they will take over the country then shortly after the entire region will fall to them. They will then set their sites on America and destroy everything we stand for. Therefore, air strikes are needed now to stop this future from happening. This intervention is not like the others. It's different this time.
    lol

    so true. so real. so sad.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  32. #28
    Al-Shabab has a belief in how the world could be better arranged and is putting their money where their mouth is.

    Where are all the An-Cap society's seceding from the 'State' safe in the knowledge that voluntarism will keep them secure against any reprisals?

    Yeah.
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't a thing
    Prostitution is legal
    We have a constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by The Free Hornet View Post
    Anybody can build a man out of a straw, even little children. Somalia is the name given to an entire country made out of straw! Anarcho-capitalism is the last thing these people want to discuss, thus Somalia.
    ...Somalian road...no State, no roads.



    How's your Prius gonna like THAT, punk?
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    What you're doing is called psychological projection.
    You're attributing to others behavior which you can only confirm in yourself.
    I don't pay any attention to the law, except in those cases where the legal system will attempt to put me in a rape cage for ignoring the law. When I show respect or concern for fellow people, it has precisely zero to do with what code says.

    Moreover, the burden of proof that the law has any measurable effect on respect is squarely on YOU. One only needs to walk down the flipping street to find examples where lack of respect is actually reinforced by law.
    Ever been in a place where it's illegal to set up a basketball hoop on your own property?
    How is that showing respect for property owners?
    And that's just the first example that springs to mind. The one that SHOULD have sprung to my mind is how in six days I have to go to court with my wife to see if the county is going to try her, with a potential prison sentence, because my seven year old daughter walked around the block by herself.

    How the $#@! is that respect????

    You statists are always boxing at shadows, always shouting down the conversation with what could be, always projecting your own animal instincts on everyone else in an attempt to maintain control - and always utterly missing the point that things are every bit as bad as you think they would be, here, today, in America.

    I'm not claiming an ancap society would be paradise. I'm fully aware that there would be problems with it.
    I'm also fully aware of how bad things are here, today, how much utter bull$#@! we all put up with on a regular basis and only because we're threatened with death or ass rape, and I've made a conscious, rational decision that I'd much rather try the alternative.
    Doesn't matter. You can't argue that every single person in your stateless society would respect others. All it takes is one. If I lived in Somalia or your stateless society, I would be a warlord, not a goat farmer.

    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    ...Somalian road...no State, no roads.

    \

    How's your Prius gonna like THAT, punk?
    Meh, my Subaru and my Suzuki can handle that. Just need to mount a 50 cal on the roof.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast


Similar Threads

  1. Now Somalia
    By pcosmar in forum World News & Affairs
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 09-01-2014, 10:16 PM
  2. Help Me Learn About Somalia!
    By djdellisanti4 in forum World News & Affairs
    Replies: 110
    Last Post: 08-02-2011, 11:36 AM
  3. Now we're at war with...... Somalia!
    By amy31416 in forum U.S. Political News
    Replies: 98
    Last Post: 07-05-2011, 02:46 PM
  4. Somalia — Is That Really All You Got?
    By Flash in forum U.S. Political News
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 07-06-2010, 05:34 AM
  5. US Invades Somalia
    By ronpaulhawaii in forum World News & Affairs
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 09-15-2009, 06:59 AM

Select a tag for more discussion on that topic

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •