your thoughts on this verse? Romans 4:5- But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
notice it says his faith, not works.
Last edited by Kevin007; 08-31-2014 at 09:19 PM.
Ephesians 2:8-9-
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Here's the chapter. The rest of the book is pretty good too.
Romans 4
4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a]
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7
“Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8
Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”[b]
9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12 And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17 As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.”[c] He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not.
18 Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”[d] 19 Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead. 20 Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21 being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
thanks RJB. What are your thoughts on it? To me this verse goes against any idea of a works based faith and salvation.
Ephesians 2:8-9-
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Just a heads up. Someone will post James 2:24 and claim that the verse you posted refers to works of the law as in verse 9. and then a 1000+ post thread will develop with people copying and pasting 1 liner bible verses and not listening to what other people say or what scripture says just to win the argument. It's pretty amusing. Believe it or not this has happened before-- a lot on the Peace through Religion forum.
Yeah, you'd think that Henny Youngman ran a school of theology.Originally Posted by RJB
Just a heads up. Someone will post James 2:24 and claim that the verse you posted refers to works of the law as in verse 9. and then a 1000+ post thread will develop with people copying and pasting 1 liner bible verses and not listening to what other people say or what scripture says just to win the argument. It's pretty amusing. Believe it or not this has happened before-- a lot on the Peace through Religion forum.lol
Originally Posted by RJB
then a 1000+ post thread will develop with people copying and pasting 1 liner bible verses)
Yeah, it's enough to make one start answering their own questions--happens to me a lot too. I'm burned out. I must've written a book already in here about the difference between dead works and works of faith. There's something there that just can't be penetrated.
we are justified by faith, not works. We are already justified before we do one work of faith.Yeah, it's enough to make one start answering their own questions--happens to me a lot too. I'm burned out. I must've written a book already in here about the difference between dead works and works of faith. There's something there that just can't be penetrated.
Ephesians 2:8-9-
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Wow--RJB was right.
I'm thinking of getting a job as a prophet or a clairvoyant. If that falls through, I think I could always be a great charlatan.Wow--RJB was right.
Sigh, this is getting old.
How many threads does it take before one group of people knows the viewpoint of another group of people?
It's not like we are going to change any minds.
Of course it does refer to works of the law, which includes the Ten Commandments.
We must have a psychic link going on here because I was just going to call you a prophet.
Sorry. Not biting in this thread tonight.
Yes, but where you all are getting confused is that under the law of Moses--the point was to show mankind that they couldn't keep the ceremonial law perfectly and to the letter of it absent faith. Works of faith are the things we do and say now as a result of the nature of Christ in us as we walk in the Spirit of the Lord--hence what we do now is done out of the love for Christ we have in our hearts--"that's written upon the heart now" as St. Paul tells us. What they did under the Mosaic law was purely out of a ceremonial ritual to obtain righteousness and nothing more because they didn't have the indwelling spirit of the Lord as they do now under the new Law of Faith. Hence--dead works vs works of faith. This is what Paul is explaining to us all through his epistles.
Oops--I bit--it's a weakness.Sorry. Not biting in this thread tonight.
Fixed it for you. It wasn't just the ceremonial law they couldn't keep. It was the moral parts too. In fact, those were the most important parts. And when Paul talks about works of the Law, he's absolutely explicit about including those moral parts within that label.
Even with faith, we still can't keep it perfectly. But we can be reckoned as righteous.
You do realize that those ceremonial laws of Moses were practiced right up until the time of Christ don't you? The law of Moses was the only law they had until the death and resurrection of Christ. The Ten Commandments could not be written upon the hearts of believers through faith and the spiritual circumcision until Jesus arrived, was crucified and resurrected. This is where Paul comes in and tells you the difference between dead works of the Old Mosaic Law and works of faith under the New Covenant Law of Faith.
A "work" is just that. It's something we do physically in the flesh. The difference is that one was done absent faith in Jesus--because He hadn't yet arrived and one is done in faith now being written upon our hearts--we do out of love for the savior. It's still work--a good deed--a "good work" that Jesus tells us without--it's impossible to glorify the Father in Heaven. And James telling us that faith without a work is no faith at all and it's dead. So we have to physically do something to show evidence our faith--we are commanded to do this.
Last edited by Terry1; 08-31-2014 at 10:17 PM.
Let's just assume we did the 1,000 post thread and just cut to the final summation post chase.
The Bible says both. Gotta cover all of the bases, flavors and options.
Of course. And they continued to be practiced by Judean Christians, including the apostles, for long after that, until the Temple was destroyed in AD 70, and for some much longer than that. That doesn't relate to the point I made though. In reading Romans 4:5, we can't just say that it's about the ceremonial law alone, and imagine that Paul does not include the 10 Commandments in the category of "works." He clearly does. And he quotes them explicitly elsewhere in Romans to do that.
So before Moses there was no law of any kind at all?
Are you saying that nobody before the cross had saving faith? Nobody before the cross was "born again," to use the phrase Jesus used with Nicodemus. Nobody before Jesus had their hearts circumcised?
Where do you get those ideas?
Abraham was before Jesus, and before the Law of Moses too, and he had saving faith.
Correct. For James, works are what you do, when you already have saving faith, to demonstrate that faith. Works are not a prerequisite for being righteous in God's sight by faith, but the outgrowth of it. James uses an example from Abraham, where Abraham demonstrated his faith by good works 30 years after God had already declared Abraham righteous by his faith.
Last edited by erowe1; 09-01-2014 at 06:42 AM.
No laws? Well, maybe from a narrow, myopic Judeo-Christian centric point of view.
What are you talking about?No laws? Well, maybe from a narrow, myopic Judeo-Christian centric point of view.
Short term memory issues?So before Moses there was no law of any kind at all?
Without your works of faith--your faith is dead and you have no righteousness. Your faith in Jesus is what you do as a result of your belief in Him. Jesus told you that the only way to glorify the Father in heaven is by revealing your light in this world by the good works that you do because of your belief in Jesus Christ. Jesus tells us also, that our good works are our lights that are not meant to be hid under a bushel, but to shine that all may see. Meaning we are to be examples by those same good works to the world of the lost and unbelievers to draw them into the body of Christ. This is our purpose and reason that we are called to Christ. James then tells you that without these works done in full faith--your faith is indeed dead and grace no effect. You do indeed have to physically do something to show your faith. This is your light--these works are the fruit of your spirit who John 15 and Hebrews 6 then go on to tell you that without these fruits and good works that branch is cut off and burned.
Yes- Abraham was the Father of faith because he obeyed the voice of God--spiritually as did the other prophets and people of God of the Old Testament. But all Jews still lived under the Law of Moses and practiced traditions and dead works still. It was *the law* up until the time of Jesus. Only after the death and resurrection of Christ were the Jews now being instructed how to live and under the Law of Faith in Jesus Christ instead of their old Jewish traditions and works that made void the word of God that they practiced to obtain righteousness. To this very day this is still being done by those who deny that Jesus Christ is the Messiah and savior. Rev 2:9 and 3:9.
Jesus had come in the flesh as was promised in the OT. When He came, many still denied Him and do to this day and still practice those OT traditions and dead works. Those who believe in Christ--St. Paul tells them to hold fast to their *Christian traditions*. Two opposing Laws with two sets of opposing works and traditions--which St. Paul tries to explain to you the difference throughout all of his epistles. By your interpretation and doctrinal belief leaves the word of God contradicting itself, which we know is not true.
And this is why by your belief that you all have to continually rewrite the word of God to make it fit your doctrinal belief as in all doesn't mean all and world doesn't mean world and dead faith doesn't mean dead faith--when they most certainly do mean exactly what they say and does reconcile with the rest of the Old and New Testaments.
Last edited by Terry1; 09-01-2014 at 10:23 AM.
You understand what that squiggly line with the dot underneath it at the end of that sentence means. Don't you?
So, for those 30 years between the time that God reckoned Abraham righteous by faith, and the time he did the work that, according to James, demonstrated that faith, you are saying he had no righteousness? Because according to God, way back in Genesis 15:6, which James quotes, Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him for righteousness.
Pinworms? There's medicine for that.
What do you think Abraham did as a result of his faith in God then? Abraham physically took Isaac to the mountain to sacrifice him to God. That is a work of faith. Yes--there were people of faith in the OT and Abraham being the first and Father of faith who physically displayed his trust in the voice of God. Isaac was always the Promise to Abraham and Sarah and symbolic of the Promise that Jesus would come out of the line of Isaac through Mary. The Promise was always Jesus through the faith of Abraham, but the Law of Moses did not and could not be fulfilled until the death and resurrection of Christ.
Yes, like you said, he did that as a result of his faith. Prior to doing that his faith was a genuine, living, saving faith. It wasn't dead faith. And the fact that it wasn't dead faith was proven by his works. The order was first came living saving faith along with righteousness in the sight of God before a single work was performed, and then came works as a result of that faith.
Hey Rocky, want to see me pull a rabbit out of a hat?
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