the Bible, the Koran and violence

[Ronin Truth]

The Problem Isn’t Islam … It’s ALL Religious Fundamentalism

Washington's Blog

August 29, 2014

While the Koran Calls for Violence, The Bible Is Even Worse … Calling for Genocide

Christians and Jews rightly point out that the Koran is a violent text which calls on Muslims to attack “unbelievers”.
But they fail to see that the Bible is at least as violent.

NPR noted in 2010:

Religion historian Philip Jenkins decided to compare the brutality quotient of the Quran and the Bible.

“Much to my surprise, the Islamic scriptures in the Quran were actually far less bloody and less violent than those in the Bible,” Jenkins says.

Jenkins is a professor at Penn State University and author of two books dealing with the issue: the recently published Jesus Wars, and Dark Passages , which has not been published but is already drawing controversy.

Violence in the Quran, he and others say, is largely a defense against attack.

“By the standards of the time, which is the 7th century A.D., the laws of war that are laid down by the Quran are actually reasonably humane,” he says. “Then we turn to the Bible, and we actually find something that is for many people a real surprise. There is a specific kind of warfare laid down in the Bible which we can only call genocide.”

It is called herem, and it means total annihilation. Consider the Book of 1 Samuel, when God instructs King Saul to attack the Amalekites: “And utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them,” God says through the prophet Samuel. “But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.”

When Saul failed to do that, God took away his kingdom.

“In other words,” Jenkins says, “Saul has committed a dreadful sin by failing to complete genocide. And that passage echoes through Christian history. It is often used, for example, in American stories of the confrontation with Indians — not just is it legitimate to kill Indians, but you are violating God’s law if you do not.”

Jenkins notes that the history of Christianity is strewn with herem. During theCrusades in the Middle Ages, the Catholic popes declared the Muslims Amalekites. In the great religious wars in the 16th, 17th and 19th centuries, Protestants and Catholics each believed the other side were the Amalekites and should be utterly destroyed.

Read the rest of the article

http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/08/n...han-the-koran/

Copyright © 2014 by LewRockwell.com. Permission to reprint in whole or in part is gladly granted, provided full credit and a live link are provided.

This seems to be primarily an issue with all three of the major mono-theistic world religions. Is there a connection?

WWJD?

[Muwahid]

Islamic rules of war:

وقوله : ( ولا تعتدوا إن الله لا يحب المعتدين ) أي : قاتلوا في سبيل الله ولا تعتدوا في ذلك ويدخل في ذلك ارتكاب المناهي كما قاله الحسن البصري من المثلة ، والغلول ، وقتل النساء والصبيان والشيوخ الذين لا رأي لهم ولا قتال فيهم ، والرهبان وأصحاب الصوامع ، وتحريق الأشجار وقتل الحيوان لغير مصلحة

Translation: Allah's saying: 'Do not transgress, Allah does not love the transgressors', this means fight in the way of Allah, and do not transgress in it like committed prohibited acts. Hasan al-Basri stated those include: mutilation, theft, killing women, children, and old men who do not have an opinion [of the conflict; not involved] and do not fight, monks, the owners of sacred places, do not burn trees, or kill animals which benefit nothing

I'll let Christians defend their book, but the Qur'an is not bloodthirsty.

[Ronin Truth]

Islamic rules of war:



I'll let Christians defend their book, but the Qur'an is not bloodthirsty.

I'd say all three groups have very big (ignored) jobs to do, reining in their militant crazies.

[Muwahid]

I'd say all three groups have very big (ignored) jobs to do, reining in their militant crazies.

It would be difficult to point to a conflict in which there wasn't a political/secular reason for the bloodshed as it's prime motivator. Religion may be a unifying factor, but is seldom the reason for war.

Most Muslim fundamentalist Jihadi groups do not release statements saying "We're declaring war on you because you're infidels", they really do give a comprehensive list of legitimate reasons why they wage war against their enemies... if they didn't use religion to unify people, they would just use other devices like nationalism to do the same job.

[Ronin Truth]

It would be difficult to point to a conflict in which there wasn't a political/secular reason for the bloodshed as it's prime motivator. Religion may be a unifying factor, but is seldom the reason for war.

Most Muslim fundamentalist Jihadi groups do not release statements saying "We're declaring war on you because you're infidels", they really do give a comprehensive list of legitimate reasons why they wage war against their enemies... if they didn't use religion to unify people, they would just use other devices like nationalism to do the same job.

Care to add just a bit about the Sunni vs Shiite enduring blood letting issues?

[otherone]

It would be difficult to point to a conflict in which there wasn't a political/secular reason for the bloodshed as it's prime motivator. Religion may be a unifying factor, but is seldom the reason for war.

Not a motivator; but a justifier.

[staerker]

“In other words,” Jenkins says, “Saul has committed a dreadful sin by failing to complete genocide. And that passage echoes through Christian history. It is often used, for example, in American stories of the confrontation with Indians — not just is it legitimate to kill Indians, but you are violating God’s law if you do not.”

Jenkins notes that the history of Christianity is strewn with herem. During theCrusades in the Middle Ages, the Catholic popes declared the Muslims Amalekites. In the great religious wars in the 16th, 17th and 19th centuries, Protestants and Catholics each believed the other side were the Amalekites and should be utterly destroyed.

WWJD?

So it seems the problem does not actually lie in the text, but rather by intentional manipulation of the text.

So then, why do you further another manipulation?

[Ronin Truth]

So it seems the problem does not actually lie in the text, but rather by intentional manipulation of the text.

So then, why do you further another manipulation?

Slow Friday?

[robert68]

As Christian writer and psychiatrist M. Scott Peck – who served as the United States Army’s Assistant Chief Psychiatry and Neurology Consultant to the Surgeon General of the Army, and held the rank of Lieutenant Colonel – explained, there are different stages of spiritual maturity. Fundamentalism – whether it be Muslim, Christian, Jewish or Hindu fundamentalism – is an immature stage of development.

Spiritual maturity requires rejecting holy writ where “God” ever authorized genocide. If okay before, it can always be okay again.

[Ronin Truth]

Spiritual maturity requires rejecting holy writ where “God” ever authorized genocide. If okay before, it can always be okay again.

Methinks perhaps God may have just been blamed to cover for a WHOLE BUNCH of human evil.
This Land Is Mine (video)

[fisharmor]

I'll get right on defending that Old Testament genocide stuff as soon as I'm done eating this pork sausage pizza.


Hackneyed argument is hackneyed.

[Ronin Truth]

I'll get right on defending that Old Testament genocide stuff as soon as I'm done eating this pork sausage pizza.


Hackneyed argument is hackneyed.

I await your genocide defense with great anticipation and baited breath.

[Miss Annie]

MOST of the verses related to violence in Islam are in the Hadith.
The Koran is thus saith allah. The Koran is thus saith Mohammed.
The Hadith in Islam is akin to the book of mormon in mormonism. Thou shalt not separate.

[heavenlyboy34]

Becky Akers took on this subject toady.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/...-of-scripture/
Intriguing that in its attack on Christian “fundamentalists” – an amorphous term that, whatever else the speaker wants it to mean, usually applies to Christians who believe the Bible’s claims to be the literal Word of God – Washington’s Blog chooses to cite NPR. As Leviathan’s official medium, this network retails little but propaganda; its animus against Christianity is notorious. And why not? The satanic State knows that it competes with the Lord Almighty for our worship. How better to denigrate Christianity, and those who take it seriously, than to pretend that trusting Jesus Christ for salvation is just another religion, one among many, “immature” and “murderous.”
Meanwhile, let’s examine the supposedly violent Old Testament in context rather than deliberately telling only half the story as NPR does. The Almighty did indeed command the complete annihilation of various peoples in the ancient Near East and He graciously tells us why, too: “…the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.”
“The land” here is Canaan, the territory God was wresting from the peoples who already lived there to bestow on the Children of Israel. Any decent commentary on this verse will mention the natives’ utter wickedness; I like this summary from the Defender’s Study Bible:
The land of Canaan, which had long before been promised by God to Abraham and his seed, had become so defiled by the time of Joshua that God was completely vindicated in ordering the extermination of its incorrigibly wicked inhabitants, lest the people of Israel and eventually the whole world be corrupted by their influence, as in the world before … [Noah’s] flood. This chapter [Leviticus 18] gives a representative listing of their pervasive sins–promiscuity, incest, homosexuality, bestiality, even burning their children in sacrifice to a pagan god (Leviticus 18:21) and blaspheming the true God. God had been long-suffering for four hundred years, but now their iniquity was full and their time was up (note Genesis 15:13-16). [Emphasis added.]
I will bet a great many of the folks condemning the “violent” Old Testament, including NPR, have no problem at all with the Allied firebombing of Germany during WWII. Talk about herem (“’There is a specific kind of warfare laid down in the Bible…’ It is called herem, and it means total annihilation”)! The Nazis were absolutely despicable, certainly, but not every German was a Nazi. Yet they all suffered for the Nazis’ sins.
As NPR notes, King Saul disobeyed the Lord in refusing to execute one native leader; elsewhere, the Bible says the Israelites also spared some of the indigenous peoples. And precisely what the Defender’s Study Bible predicts happened: “the people of Israel … [were] corrupted by their influence.” Among other horrors, the Israelites, too, sacrificed their children on pagan altars, to the Lord’s unending heartbreak. He repeatedly mentions in the Old Testament’s prophetic books His shock at such an abomination; one such passage comes from Jeremiah 19 (“They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind…”). Those who dare judge the Almighty, please tell us what punishment parents who incinerate their own children deserve.
Now, to critics who sneer, “So does your God still tell people to commit genocide?”, I respond, “Of course not. The Lord communicated directly with the Children of Israel because they did not have the written Word in its entirety as we do. And He specifically tells us that His revelation is finished; no one receives commands from Him any longer except through the Bible.” The Almighty’s order for herem was strictly limited to a certain time, place, and people. Those who extend it to anything beyond God’s punishment of the Canaanites and who thereby hope to justify their imperial wars will one day answer for such blasphemy.
We should also remember that the Israelites, too, eventually exhausted God’s patience, and He allowed other nations to destroy them, just as He had used them to destroy the Canaanites. From all this let us take a sober warning: America is traveling much the same path as these ancient societies. We, too, sacrifice our own children – to the gods of convenience, career, feminism, and abortion rights. We, too, applaud sodomy while persecuting anyone who refuses to endorse such perversion. We, too, wink at promiscuity as our homes and marriages disintegrate. We, too, are beginning to explore the “rights” of bestiality.
Our iniquity is full, and our time may very well be up.
11:08 am on August 29, 2014

[Ronin Truth]

MOST of the verses related to violence in Islam are in the Hadith.
The Koran is thus saith allah. The Koran is thus saith Mohammed.
The Hadith in Islam is akin to the book of mormon in mormonism. Thou shalt not separate.

I appreciate the added info. Thanks!

[Muwahid]

Care to add just a bit about the Sunni vs Shiite enduring blood letting issues?

Sure. When the Safavid empire took Persia which was a majority sunni nation, they forced conversion to twelver shia Islam. Their motivations had to do with their feud with the Ottoman Empire, and obviously sunni empire, so it was in their interests to force a vehemently anti-sunni ideology into Persia... the original reasons for conflict had to do of course with lands in Anatolia and Mesopotamia. So again the historical Shia v. Sunni divide stems from imperialistic goals of empires, who then used religious differences as a tool to band together armies.

In modern times, it's not like the Sunni and Shia in Iraq have simply decided to fight each other, especially during the second Iraq war, it would have been in their interests to not fight and fight the invading force. The Shia decided to use the political system to make a Shia dominated state, and that worked for them (until recent developments).

If you were to ask an Iraqi sunni who hates the Shia government, why he hates them, I don't think he will say "Because they are Shia", but rather, "Because they imprison us, torture us, etc.", I would venture to say if the Iraqi government was ethical and not corrupt and Iraq prospered, the sunnis would have much less motivation to pick up arms and fight, even if they're slightly annoyed with their religion, they would probably take that annoyance work within the political system to give themselves more representation, so their kids could grow up without war.

So the primary motivation in Iraq now, is to fight an oppressive, corrupt, western-backed government, not simply because they're Shia.

I will concede the Sunni v. Shia struggle is heavily ideological, I won't even deny that, but I still believe if you eliminated the secular wants and desires for power, and land, you wouldn't have this type of bloodshed.

[Ronin Truth]

"By their fruits, ye shall know them."

[bunklocoempire]

Is the Bible More Bloodthirsty Than the Koran?

WWJD?

Of course Jesus would go on and on and on about his own method of death while ignoring the issue of death itself, why it had/has to come about, and what can be done about it. You know how he is. sarcasm

I want to know WDRTD?

What Did Ronin Truth Do to deserve his own fate of death? Start there friend -and when you have peace about that, then you can share your own experience to promote peace in the Peace Through Religion forum.

[Ronin Truth]

Of course Jesus would go on and on and on about his own method of death while ignoring the issue of death itself, why it had/has to come about, and what can be done about it. You know how he is. sarcasm

I want to know WDRTD?

What Did Ronin Truth Do to deserve his own fate of death? Start there friend -and when you have peace about that, then you can share your own experience to promote peace in the Peace Through Religion forum.

I was born. None of us are getting out of this alive. Shared experience: You too. Cheer up!

[Christian Liberty]

The biggest problem is that the meaning of "fundamentalism" isn't clear in the OP.

To some people "fundamental" just means sticking to the fundamentals of the Christian faith (which would be etymologically correct, to my understanding.) To others it means killing people.

Also, political conservatism may or may not play a role in the definition. I'm doctrinally somewhat fundamentalist, but politically an-cap libertarian.

The Old Testament is what it is. God made people, so he has the right to kill them if he wants, and he has the right to use other people he made to do it. I don't really see the problem, except when people get stupid and start saying that just because God commanded massacre in X situation that we can unilaterally decide to do it in Y situation also.

Mind you, I won't deny having a tough time with the massacres that occurred in the Old Testament, but that's not a logical problem with what the Bible says, just a spiritual problem for me.

For what its worth, I'm not really worried about Islam, or at least not for the same reasons that most US evangelicals are. I think its theologically dangerous, but I am aware that the VAST majority of Muslims wouldn't hurt me... except by voting for statists

[staerker]

Slow Friday?

Well, there is a discrepancy between the title of this thread, the title of the article, and the content of the article. Oh well.

[Christian Liberty]

http://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/...-of-scripture/

[bunklocoempire]

I was born. None of us are getting out of this alive. Shared experience: You too. Cheer up!

I assure you that I am cheerful. When one has died already everything else is a piece of cake, unless I get in the way of course (as is often the case).

A bad analogy:

What I have a hard time understanding is why someone brings up a diet, proceeds to take that diet plan out of context, and then further questions the diet because some dieters can't stick to the diet plan. So it's the dieters who successfully follow the diet that are partly at fault?

NPR eh? Looking for solutions to promote individual liberty and peace are they? lol Is the diet really that good? Did God really say?

*snip*

This seems to be primarily an issue with all three of the major mono-theistic world religions. Is there a connection?

Yes. A connection with ALL and ANY groups. The connection is cowardly and prideful individual men avoiding an internal audit of themselves at all cost. It's that simple, and it will continue to happen as long as man is scared and proud.

The truth just isn't as exciting as cowardly and prideful people want it to be. Not necessarily talking about you Ronin Truth, but I have had some personal experiences avoiding the truth myself.

[fisharmor]

I await your genocide defense with great anticipation and baited breath.

Actually I just learned something. The word you want is 'bated'. Which is actually shorthand for 'abated'. As in, you're holding your breath.

Are Pulp Fiction and Deliverance widely known as gay porn movies? Using the article author's criteria, they must be - for each movie has a homosexual scene in it, and as has been demonstrated, a small sliver of a thing defines that thing.

Are beekeepers diagnoseable masochists? Surely they know that they undertake an activity which will at some point result in their getting injected with venom. It's part of the activity, and as has been shown, a small sliver of a thing defines that thing. They must all be mentally unbalanced.

Surely everyone can see these are logically unsound, so why is it so many argue from a few verses out of over 30,000 and expect it to stick?
Did you genuinely not see the point in my stating I was going to finish my pork sausage pizza before replying? (I really was eating pork at the time.)

The Amalekite example is using the same faulty logic against Christianity employed by those who think eating pork is forbidden: the fallacy of Hasty Generalization. Taking one element of a thing (a verse or two, in this case) and applying it to the whole.

Christianity is not in a book. Once you discover it you find that it is a living thing - a thing which has to be lived.
One or two or ten or even a thousand verses are insufficient.

[Miss Annie]

MOST of the verses related to violence in Islam are in the Hadith.
The Koran is thus saith allah. The Koran is thus saith Mohammed.
The Hadith in Islam is akin to the book of mormon in mormonism. Thou shalt not separate.

Just realized that I messed this up! Let me fix.
Again, Most of the verses related to violence in Islam are in the Hadith.
The Koran is thus saith allah, the Hadith is thus saith Mohammed.

Just goes to show why I should never try to multi task

[Muwahid]

Again, Most of the verses related to violence in Islam are in the Hadith.

Like what?

[Kevin007]

http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/08/n...han-the-koran/

Copyright © 2014 by LewRockwell.com. Permission to reprint in whole or in part is gladly granted, provided full credit and a live link are provided.

This seems to be primarily an issue with all three of the major mono-theistic world religions. Is there a connection?

WWJD?

just one problem though.. Islam is still killing...

[heavenlyboy34]

just one problem though.. Islam is still killing...

A lot of people are still killing. Usually ignoring what their religion says. The difference between them and "Islam" is the uniform.

[Kevin007]

A lot of people are still killing. Usually ignoring what their religion says. The difference between them and "Islam" is the uniform.

NO. The dif is the "extremists" in Islam who are killing are the "good" Muslims who obey. Now if you seriously believe the NT, Jesus condones killing...I don't know what to tell you.

[fr33]

Is the Bible More Bloodthirsty Than the Koran?

I can't tell the difference since so many who are inspired by both books are very bloodthirsty. It would require me to delve into semantics. Both books support peaceful solutions and both books contain enough violent methods to obtain their version of peace. It's not a coincidence that Islamists are attacking and oppressing people and that Christians are attacking and oppressing people. Save me your "No true scotsman" argument. Whether you have a bomb strapped to your chest or are fighting your christian war, you definitely aren't secular. You'll see Muslim apologists that don't support the war du jour and Christians. They were just inspired differently by the same ancient texts that the other believers often cite.