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Thread: MSNBC: Rand Paul vs. The Hawks

  1. #1

    MSNBC: Rand Paul vs. The Hawks



    06:05 "What Happens If ISIS Attack Oil Fields That Are VIDAL To OUR National INTEREST" Ron Reagan JR SUPER LIBERAL or SUPER WAR CHEERLEADER?
    Last edited by orenbus; 08-29-2014 at 01:26 AM.
    It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds. -Samuel Adams



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  3. #2
    At 8:47 Fineman calls him Ron Paul, not Rand Paul and goes uncorrected.

  4. #3
    At 8:47 he accidentally calls him Ron Paul

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by orenbus View Post
    Ron Reagan JR SUPER LIBERAL or SUPER WAR CHEERLEADER?
    SUPER 'D'.

    (Which is to say, even when expressing views similar to my own, if you have an 'R' next to your name, you can't be right.)
    There is only one success -- to be able to spend your life in your own way.
    -- Christopher Morley (1890 - 1957)

  6. #5
    This is really Philhelm's idea (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...15#post5629215), but I think it's time for Rand to introduce the Owl into the equation.

    All this Hawk/Dove talk could use some wisdom interjected.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  7. #6
    Yes, in foreign policy, 'hawk/dove' is the two-party paradigm stalking horse for right/left. Conservatives feel self-flattered by the 'hawk' designation as it implies strength, while 'dove' can be emotionally spun as weakness. It doesn't matter (outside of politics) that a hawk is often a cowardly predator, while dove is a biblical metaphor for the Holy Spirit.

    Owl may not be a sufficient substitute symbol for us, however, as it carries no emotional heft in positively painting the non-interventionist. I suggest we should call ourselves Totos, who reject the hawk/dove paradigm, preferring instead to pull the curtain to reveal the covert ops and special interest elites manipulating the whole discussion.
    Last edited by Peace&Freedom; 08-29-2014 at 07:37 AM.
    -----Peace & Freedom, John Clifton-----
    Blog: https://electclifton.wordpress.com/2...back-backlash/

  8. #7
    How about we call ourselves the non-murderers?

  9. #8
    Rand is playing this correct. Every political analysis made after 2012 said it would be decades before a Republican held the White house again. That is primarily because of the "Free Stuff" equation. Now a wrench of an anti war Republican is thrown into the mix and it is confusing the liberals brains. They want anti war almost as much as they want free stuff, and with Clinton they lose the anti war part which they assumed they would automatically get in a candidate that carries the "D" label. Very emotionally confusing to them and their senses are being manipulated perfectly by Rand Paul.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    This is really Philhelm's idea (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...15#post5629215), but I think it's time for Rand to introduce the Owl into the equation.

    All this Hawk/Dove talk could use some wisdom interjected.
    The moment Randal makes any comments about being an Owl you'll have every conspiracy nut on the internet raving that its proof that Randal is one of "them", part of a satanic cult worshipping a blood thirsty owl. Other than that, I rather like the idea.

  12. #10
    This is just a democratic attempt to defeat Rand with the republicans so Hillary NEVER even has to run against him.
    War; everything in the world wrong, evil and immoral combined into one and multiplied by millions.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    This is really Philhelm's idea (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...15#post5629215), but I think it's time for Rand to introduce the Owl into the equation.

    All this Hawk/Dove talk could use some wisdom interjected.

    How about an eagle?

  14. #12
    Wow impressed to see Mathews defending Rand against some idiotic remarks. Nice closing comment about anti-war republicans during Vietnam also.

  15. #13
    Romantic Hyper-interventionism V. Cautious Realism

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Harris View Post
    Wow impressed to see Mathews defending Rand against some idiotic remarks. Nice closing comment about anti-war republicans during Vietnam also.
    Careful. He also thinks Obama's a "dove". This is a setup for further down the road. Someone here had this great point in another thread.
    The wisdom of Swordy:

    On bringing the troops home
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    They are coming home, all the naysayers said they would never leave Syria and then they said they were going to stay in Iraq forever.

    It won't take very long to get them home but it won't be overnight either but Iraq says they can't stay and they are coming home just like Trump said.

    On fighting corruption:
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Trump had to donate the "right way" and hang out with the "right people" in order to do business in NYC and Hollyweird and in order to investigate and expose them.
    Fascism Defined

  17. #15
    Violence versus non-violence does not play politically, as most people don't mind that the US kills innocent people overseas. Instead, the correct framing would be smart versus stupid - most people will oppose a specific intervention if they can be convinced that it is actually counter-productive: which brings me to another point. Rand should not challenge the basic ENDS of US foreign policy - e.g. fighting terrorism. These are too deeply ingrained in people's minds. Instead, Rand has to fight the war-mongers on MEANS, explaining to the people why their means do not serve their own stated ends. And this is basically what he's been doing. This framing is necessary because it's the only way he can criticize interventionism without painting himself into the kook/isolationist/Murica-hater corner. Rand will lose if he runs as the guy fighting against the evil American Empire; he can will if he runs as the guy taking back the reigns of foreign policy from the bumblers.

    So, realism, as Rand has called his philosophy on foreign policy, is the perfect label methinks.
    Last edited by r3volution 3.0; 08-29-2014 at 09:59 AM.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by dude58677 View Post
    How about we call ourselves the non-murderers?
    +rep

    edit: Fineman's an idiot to criticize Rand for not mentioning Graham/McWar by name - as if he needed to.
    Last edited by surf; 08-29-2014 at 10:22 AM.
    Seattle Sounders 2016 MLS Cup Champions 2019 MLS Cup Champions 2022 CONCACAF Champions League - and the [un]official football club of RPF

    just a libertarian - no caucus



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by KingNothing View Post
    How about an eagle?
    this may sound un-American, but the eagles I watch every day fishing on our lake are kind of like vultures trying to steal whatever another one catches.
    Seattle Sounders 2016 MLS Cup Champions 2019 MLS Cup Champions 2022 CONCACAF Champions League - and the [un]official football club of RPF

    just a libertarian - no caucus

  21. #18
    I prefer to think of us as macaws; stalwart, colorful, prone to nonsensical rambling and imitating phone sounds. Analogy may have gotten away from me at the end there.

  22. #19
    All I know is I'd like Randal to start calling all the war promoters isolationists at every chance. Hell, if they are gonna smear him as one he might as well confuse the public by smearing em back with it.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Harris View Post
    Romantic Hyper-interventionism V. Cautious Realism
    I'm banking on cautious realism passing party lines come 2016 and I'm not really a betting man for the most part.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Harris View Post
    Wow impressed to see Mathews defending Rand against some idiotic remarks. Nice closing comment about anti-war republicans during Vietnam also.
    Matthews was never a partisan hack. He's one of the only decent progressives.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    All I know is I'd like Randal to start calling all the war promoters isolationists at every chance. Hell, if they are gonna smear him as one he might as well confuse the public by smearing em back with it.
    He should question where their true loyalties lie, and why they want the troops to die for foreign interests. And then state that he is loyal to the United States alone.
    "I shall bring justice to Westeros. Every man shall reap what he has sown, from the highest lord to the lowest gutter rat. They have made my kingdom bleed, and I do not forget that."
    -Stannis Baratheon

  26. #23
    Better headline:

    "Rand Paul vs. the fanatical reckless interventionists"
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

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    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  27. #24
    I can not stand Ron Reagan.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by surf View Post
    this may sound un-American, but the eagles I watch every day fishing on our lake are kind of like vultures trying to steal whatever another one catches.
    Hardly un-American; Ben Franklin himself thought the bald eagle was a terrible choice of national symbol for precisely that reason.

    For my own part I wish the Bald Eagle had not been chosen the Representative of our Country. He is a Bird of bad moral Character. He does not get his Living honestly. You may have seen him perched on some dead Tree near the River, where, too lazy to fish for himself, he watches the Labour of the Fishing Hawk; and when that diligent Bird has at length taken a Fish, and is bearing it to his Nest for the Support of his Mate and young Ones, the Bald Eagle pursues him and takes it from him.
    “Do you not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?” - Oxenstiern

    Violence will not save us. Let us love one another, for love is from God.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by surf View Post
    this may sound un-American, but the eagles I watch every day fishing on our lake are kind of like vultures trying to steal whatever another one catches.
    Nothing wrong with that. Worked great in WW2. Come in at the end of the conflict and take credit for ending it.
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
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    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't a thing
    Prostitution is legal
    We have a constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care



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