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Last edited by erowe1; 08-30-2014 at 11:34 AM. Reason: dupe
I agree with this, and I want to add something that you will probably think a little crazy, but all of these prophetic events occur as harmonics in time. Notice that major prophecy is often immediately followed by 'shadow' fulfillments that 'type' the fulfillment but are not itself the fulfillment. The fall of Jerusalem in 70AD 'typed' the future return of Christ, and was itself a 'shadow fulfillment' of that very prophecy.Originally Posted by erowe1
A prophecy produces a kind of vibration that works a harmonic and produces a later event. If time were like a string, then God delivering prophecy to the world would be like God playing guitar and producing beautiful music. Because they work on a kind of harmonics, (the same way a rainbow works, and you can get a double rainbow) on a particularly powerful prophecy you may get as many as three 'shadow fulfillments' before the actual fulfillment, like ghost images of the multiple rainbow, one right after the prophecy, one right in the middle, and one right before the fulfillment.
When you gain this perception on how prophecy works, I would say that prophetic works like Jeremiah and such are more opened. I would also say that basically all true prophecy is self fulfilling. Not that it is the will of the prophet to make something happen, but that it is just the mechanism of God whereby the tune of creation is played under His masterful hands.
So the prophecy of the return is given in 30 AD and what looks like a dead fulfillment happens in 70 AD. Therefore there are Preterists who fully believe (and will carry to their grave) that Christ returned in 70 AD. But really the events of 70 AD were only a shadow of a much larger event to come.
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The point to all of that is simply to say that you can interchange the two. Yes, they happen at the same time, but does the resurrection drive the transfiguration, or does the transfiguration drive the resurrection? To me, I see the transfiguration as the precedent driving the resurrection. A dead body, having been transfigured, is resurrected by ontological default. In any case, considering that prophecy works like harmonics, the transfiguration/resurrection/eternal catching up, etc; is all at some major point of intersection in the "prophetic harmonics." It's less about when something is finished and more about when two paths meet.
If Mary was a David descendant doesn't that fulfill the Biblical prophecies? If so, Joseph is redundant an unnecessary. If not, Joseph wasn't the blood descendant and so doesn't fulfill the prophesies. Seems to me, either way Joseph is not relevant.
I'd say that kind of depends on who I'm being compared to. As a naive teenager, I had minister ambitions and read the entire Bible cover to cover. Subsequent events lead to a heart and mind "falling out" with the church.
BTW, I am a certifed and registered minister of the Universal Life Church. http://www.ulc.org/
Long, really funny story. (I'll spare you.)
Shall we take an RPF poll?
Last edited by Ronin Truth; 08-30-2014 at 12:09 PM.
Not the ones regarding the heredity of royalty. The right to claim the throne of the Nation of Israel. Royalty is patrilineal. You cannot inherit a throne from your mother in the Kingdom of Israel.
Joseph was the source of His patrilineal (legal) claim to the Throne of the Nation of Israel. He was an Israelite via Mary, He was a King via Joseph, and He was a Messiah (prophet, priest, and King) via God. Joseph was critical to His legal claim to the worldly throne of Israel, which was itself critical to the demonstration of His status as Messiah.If so, Joseph is redundant an unnecessary. If not, Joseph wasn't the blood descendant and so doesn't fulfill the prophesies. Seems to me, either way Joseph is not relevant.
I would think that Jesus REAL father could have very simply managed to straighten out all of that Jewish state mumbo-jumbo legalese, and greased whatever skids were necessary. After all we now do have John 3:16, etc. I assume it was all correct then too.
I don't think that's crazy. I believe something like that is correct. God has a nature, and creation has a nature, and God's activities within creation throughout time have reflected God's nature and creation's nature. Thus, we see repetition of similar things, and fractal-like patterns where the large-scale plot-line is repeated again in many small-scale plot-lines. Like branches on a tree limb, the parts tend to resemble each other, and each part also resembles the whole.
This is why we encounter things like, on the one hand, John the Baptist being the Elijah who was to come, and on the other hand, the Elijah who was to come still being yet to come. And why the abomination of desolation happened in the time of the Maccabees, but also awaiting the end times. And why the Book of Revelation addresses first-century Christians as though they live under the rule of the Beast, while, at the same time, here we are 2000 years later, and that rule is yet to be conquered by Christ when he descends again bodily from Heaven. And so on.
Last edited by erowe1; 08-30-2014 at 01:14 PM.
First of all, no. Second of all, it's not just fulfilling prophecies, but having the recognizable legal right to claim the throne of David.
you are exactly expressing what happens at the Divine Liturgy when the faithful concelebrate along with the saints and angels in heaven, with one foot in time and in this world and the other foot outside of time and in the Kingdom of God. This is not only true in the Divine Liturgy but whenever there is true prayer and communion in divine ecstasy with the Holy Spirit.
+'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ
Why in heaven's name would God just ignore the very process He created to accomplish His will? You are asking why God didn't suddenly change His mind and do it your way instead of His. God did it how He always does it: His way. Who am I, a mere man to protest? I join Him or oppose Him as a free agent, buy I am only empowered to join Him if I have been called, which calling I obtained in the election whereby I chose life in God, and was myself chosen unto the election and granted life.
God created all of that, from the beginning, to guard the line of Seth in order to produce a true Savior. It was all, every dot and comma of it built towards the one purpose, and you are complaining that at the last minute He should have just ignored all of that and done it your way?
Consider how you allow the gravity of your own ego to eclipse your perception of the light of truth.
After all we now do have John 3:16, etc. I assume it was all correct then too.
Most of what I know is not taught by any man, but according to my understanding so far as I am able to submit to the leading of the Spirit. I mentioned before that I was drawn into Messiah by seeking out and perceiving the Seven Spirits active in the creation, and then following those Seven Spirits back to Revelation, into John's Gospel, and finally James's Epistle. My relationship with the Messiah is often based on my (independant but Spirit-led) perception of truths that are not commonly seen. If there are many organs, perhaps i am supposed to be some kind of stem cell.
I am not, but I am not surprised that it develops from the Tanakh. My theology is way more informed by the Tanakh than is your average Christian.
Is the ULC a universalist/unitarian Church? Its seems to be from what info is at the link. Which bible did you read, btw? (as you know, different Churches and ecclesiastical communities use a variety of canons) Just curious.
It looks more like a diploma mill to me.
Want to officiate a wedding? Give us a hundred bucks and we'll give you a piece of paper that puts the word "Reverend" before your name.
ETA: Come to think of it, I wonder if we could use that to opt out of Social Security. If you've done that Ronin, then kudos, and by all means more power to anyone who comes up with and uses loop holes like that to live free in an unfree world.
No it's a joke and a tax dodge. Some folks take it kinda seriously. I went along with it for a while for kicks and got registered with the state. I performed two marriages, which I guess are still going strong.Is the ULC a universalist/unitarian Church? Its seems to be from what info is at the link. Which bible did you read, btw? (as you know, different Churches and ecclesiastical communities use a variety of canons) Just curious.
Their statement of principles is good and very easy to agree with. I gave a bishop 3 bucks at a party in the late 70's and a couple of weeks later I received my ordination certification package in the mail.
Go for it, it's a hoot.
I read the revised standard edition that I received free as a reward at age 8 for perfect Sunday school attendance.
Last edited by Ronin Truth; 08-30-2014 at 03:31 PM.
I imagine it's changed over the last few decades. I haven't really kept up with the processes and procedures. Check out the website. Go for it if you want.
Lord deliver me from the Pharisees.
LOL did you just accuse the Messiah of being a Pharisee, by simple virtue of the fact that He kept the Law?
No, I was referring to erowe1. Didn't Jesus have some pretty rough things to say about the Pharisees. Or is my memory failing? In Matthew, I think.
Last edited by Ronin Truth; 08-30-2014 at 03:51 PM.
So you are telling me that Erowe accused you of disobeying the Law, and was about to hurl stones at you?
No my eyes just tend to glaze over when anyone starts spouting Church LAW to me about anything. It's like the teacher's voice on Peanuts. WAA WAA WA WA WA WAAA.
Well forgive me but that sounds a lot more like your problem than Erowe's. For better or worse (from your perspective), the Law is a part of our heritage and tradition. To simply glaze it out because you don't like it doesn't change the actual reality that surrounds you, that in Christ there is a foundation of Law. The universe does not cease to exist beyond your fingertips of perception. There are other bodies with an equal claim as yours. The Law has an equal claim upon every soul, and in it every soul but One is dead. The souls that are lifted up in Him shall live. The Law is not an instrument of death, it is an instrument of life. It is only the Pharisees who perverted it and used it as an instrument of death. And there are modern day Pharisees as well. However, there mere mention of Law does not make one a Pharisee.
Using the Law as a weapon to cause death, that is what a Pharisee does. Preventing entry into the Kingdom neither going in themselves. Using the Law as a club to harm people. Phariseeism. A practice you may be a little bit familiar with?
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” -- Mahatma Gandhi
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -- Mahatma Gandhi
It's man made law no matter how it's dressed up.
Last edited by robert68; 08-30-2014 at 06:33 PM.
That would be your perspective, which being temporal-minded would show contradictions, and so it is understandable that you would come to that conclusion. You would not come to the alternate conclusion unless you were eternal-minded. It is a filter, to prevent the uninitiated from apprehending certain basic operational truths. The Law is a description of the nature and character of God, who changes not. The descriptive violence in the Law operate as firing synapses, the actions prompted by those firing synapses are the hands of the Messiah. The thoughts (OT Law) and deeds (NT Jesus) carry an equal burden in the fall and the redemption. He is, the Word.
These things are irreconcilable from within the boundaries of space and time. They however, already fit together perfectly (without need of reconciliation) from within the realm of Eternity. The difference is one of temporal vs eternal perspective. What the Flatlander perceives as four-dimensional-nonsense, you perceive as eternal mumbo-jumbo.
Yes, he did have rough things to say, especially for their failure to be strict enough in their observance of the Law.
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