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Thread: The Bible Against the State

  1. #1

    The Bible Against the State

    I want to post something I just wrote for a friend of mine. To put it in context, I had previously appealed to Revelation 18:4 as a command from Christ that Christians withdraw their consent from the state, and he replied that Revelation was too difficult of a book to interpret to stake such a belief on. He mentioned people in some third world countries suffering unspeakable violence and being desperate for a more powerful state to administer justice. The following was my reply:

    It's not just in Revelation, it's all throughout the Bible, beginning to end. From the line of Cain who founded the first city-states, to Nimrod, to Babel, to Pharaoh, and every other Empire. The Israelites themselves were in the very position you describe, as a third world nation desperate for a far more powerful institution of justice administered by the state. God famously rebuked them for this in 1 Samuel 8 (where taxes, eminent domain, and conscription are all among the sins he tells them the king will commit). And that was not the first time--see the parable of the trees in Judges 9. Satanic power behind the state is seen in the Old Testament (Job 1:15, 17; Daniel 10:13, 20-21), as well as the New. It isn't just in hard-to-interpret books like Revelation, but also in the Gospels, where we see that Satan is not just in control of a kingdom here and there, but all the kingdoms of the world (Matthew 4:8). When Paul says that the wisdom of God is something "none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." does he mean that the rulers of this age are earthly political rulers (in which case, notices the all-inclusiveness of his words), or demonic ones (such as he often means by this language)? I think it's ambiguous because in Paul's thinking the demons and the earthly political rulers are essentially two facets of the same cosmic criminal gang.

    The Beast of Revelation doesn't refer to every state in a literal way. But he isn't unique in being evil. He is (or was or will be) only the evil state par excellence. All the other states that have ever existed belong to the same basic category.

    Peel back the causes behind the unspeakable violence suffered by the people you're talking about, and you will find that it came about through the effects of colonialism, or war, or a former violent state-regime in that territory, or rebellion against such a regime, or in some other way the activities of the state.

    Like ancient Israel, these people may look to other peoples with powerful rulers subjugating them, and say they want to be more like them. But, like Israel, they're mistaken if they think the way to peace is through violence. And when you advocate for a state, you are always, by definition, advocating for violence. The use of deadly force to compel the submission of people who would otherwise choose something else is the defining essence of the state. Human relationships and groups that are characterized by wholly voluntary participation, though they may rightly be called governments, could never be called states.

    And this gets back to my final, and most unassailable, biblical argument. If there is one grand unifying motif in biblical political ethics, it is that God does not have a double standard, or to use the biblical idiom, he is no respecter of persons. The meaning of this is that God holds kings to the very same laws he holds everyone else. If anything is a sin when the commoner does it, it is a sin when the king does it. There does not exist some subset of the population who have the moral right to do what would be theft if you or I did it, and simply to call it taxation when they do it, and not be morally guilty of theft. Likewise, if conscription or compulsory education would be kidnapping when you or I as individuals imposed them on our neighbors, then they cannot become morally allowable when the state does them. Significantly, when the Herodians (i.e. the statists) asked Jesus their question about paying taxes, they premised their question saying, "We know you are no respecter of persons," implying that Caesar should have no right to collect other peoples' money beyond what right any of the rest of us have, and Jesus never disputed that premise, a detail which readers sadly often miss.

    Jesus said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant." (Matthew 20:25-26). Notice, he allows for no exceptions in his description of what the nations' rulers do. He is portraying their very essence. Notice also that he orders us not to do the same. How could we possibly obey this order if we try to adopt the state, and the tools it uses to lord it over its subjects, as the means by which we improve this world?



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  3. #2

  4. #3
    Unfortunately, most Christians have a political philosophy that's limited exclusively to Romans 13 these days. For shame; the Bible says far more. I actually learned some new references by reading this.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Significantly, when the Herodians (i.e. the statists) asked Jesus their question about paying taxes, they premised their question saying, "We know you are no respecter of persons," implying that Caesar should have no right to collect other peoples' money beyond what right any of the rest of us have, and Jesus never disputed that premise, a detail which readers sadly often miss.
    Another great point on this front:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark
    And they were seeking to arrest him but feared the people, for they perceived that he had told the parable against them. So they left him and went away. And they sent to him some of the Pharisees and some of the Herodians, to trap him in his talk. And they came and said to him, “Teacher, we know that you are true and do not care about anyone's opinion. For you are not swayed by appearances, but truly teach the way of God. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not? Should we pay them, or should we not?” But, knowing their hypocrisy, he said to them, “Why put me to the test? Bring me a denarius and let me look at it.” And they brought one. And he said to them, “Whose likeness and inscription is this?” They said to him, “Caesar's.” Jesus said to them, “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.” And they marveled at him.
    How could they 'trap him in his talk' if the answer was truly a straight one?

  6. #5
    It doesn't seem to be any too kindly disposed towards the ROMAN EMPIRE either. So if the empire hijacked an existing religion and/or started its own, can any logical reasonable inferences about it's legitimacy be drawn?

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    I want to post something I just wrote for a friend of mine.
    Good post,, and I agree with most,, but for one thing that jumped out at me.

    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    It's not just in Revelation, it's all throughout the Bible, beginning to end. From the line of Cain who founded the first city-states,
    Where do you get that Cain founded the City-States?

    Though is is possible that there were such,, the Bible names no cities before the flood.

    And ALL of Cains descendents were wiped out in the Flood.

    I mention this because I have heard others build doctrine around Cain (mark of Cain).
    Neither Cain nor his descendants were on the Ark with Noah.

    The first Government was that of Nimrod. who is described as a Nephilim. And Sumerian writings describe the world at that time (after the Flood) It is believed that Gilgamesh and Nimrod are one and the same.

    Whether that is true or not,, Nimrod was an enemy of God,, and an adversary of Abram.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  8. #7
    I think the Bible usually figures Nimrod as being from Cain's lineage. Hmmm? What about Lilith, supposedly Adam's first wife?

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    I think the Bible usually figures Nimrod as being from Cain's lineage. Hmmm?
    No, he was a descendent of Noah, presumably the line of Cain was destroyed in the flood.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe






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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    No, he was a descendent of Noah, presumably the line of Cain was destroyed in the flood.
    What was Noah's lineage? The bad guys had to come from somewhere.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    I think the Bible usually figures Nimrod as being from Cain's lineage. Hmmm? What about Lilith, supposedly Adam's first wife?
    Where do you get that?
    The lines and lineage of folks are documented. From Adam to Christ.
    Nimrod (son of Cush) was of the Line of Ham, son of Noah.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Where do you get that?
    The lines and lineage of folks are documented. From Adam to Christ.
    Nimrod (son of Cush) was of the Line of Ham, son of Noah.
    Who among Adam's offspring lead to Noah?

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Who among Adam's offspring lead to Noah?
    Not Cain. Seth. Cain is nowhere listed as an ancestor of Noah.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    What was Noah's lineage? The bad guys had to come from somewhere.
    You are confusing the bad guys before and after the flood. Canaan was not Cain, but you may know that.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  16. #14
    Genesis 5 lists the genealogy of Adam as Adam, Seth, Enosh, Cainan, Mahalalel, Jared, Enoch, Methuselah, Lamech and Noah. Ten in all. Though each of these men had other sons and daughters, their names are not recorded.
    Why are only ten names recorded and the rest are ignored?
    Does this imply that these ten men were more important than others?
    http://christianity.stackexchange.co...m-adam-to-noah

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    You are confusing the bad guys before and after the flood. Canaan was not Cain, but you may know that.
    A lot of people that never read it are confused about what is in it.

    I have argued with racists that try to pull that $#@!.. as a justification for their racism.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  18. #16

    Does this imply that these ten men were more important than others?
    It establishes the direct line of Christ. Also in Luke 3:23-38 and Matthew 1 (from Abraham on)
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    You are confusing the bad guys before and after the flood. Canaan was not Cain, but you may know that.
    I think not. Cain before flood. Nimrod after flood. Lineage connection ???????

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    I think not. Cain before flood. Nimrod after flood. Lineage connection ???????
    There is none to speak of.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    It establishes the direct line of Christ. Also in Luke 3:23-38 and Matthew 1 (from Abraham on)
    Well then, I guess it also establishes the importance of bloodlines. Hmmmmm? 13 Illuminati families.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Well then, I guess it also establishes the importance of bloodlines. Hmmmmm? 13 Illuminati families.
    Lol, yeah, anyone who keeps track of ones ancestry is Illuminati
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    Lol, yeah, anyone who keeps track of ones ancestry is Illuminati
    Not what I implied nor am leading to.

    Logic 1, William Tell 0
    Last edited by Ronin Truth; 08-27-2014 at 10:00 AM.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    Lol, yeah, anyone who keeps track of ones ancestry is Illuminati
    So ancestry.com is just a huge Illuminati reference center.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    So ancestry.com is just a huge Illuminati reference center.
    Yes
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    Yes
    And the Mormons?



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    And the Mormons?
    They are just running interference.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Well then, I guess it also establishes the importance of bloodlines.
    Human line.
    And again I would suggest that you read the book you are commenting on.
    , which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    There is none to speak of.
    Doesn't really take all that much. Just about a teaspoon.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Doesn't really take all that much. Just about a teaspoon.
    They were both descendents of Adam, that is all. All humans are descended from Adam according to standard Christian teaching. Where did you get the idea that Nimrod was descended from Cain?
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    They were both descendents of Adam, that is all. All humans are descended from Adam according to standard Christian teaching. Where did you get the idea that Nimrod was descended from Cain?
    Cain was evil for killing Abel and was banished. Noah and family survived the flood (and apparently some evil too). Nimrod gave us all the joyous gift of the first human government. The bad seeds were obviously not ALL destroyed by the flood.

    FUBAR!

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    They are just running interference.
    Maybe??

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