Spanking: Legitimate parental choice or act of aggression?

[fr33]

I see a difference between "beating" and "spanking". The former is prolonged and causes long-lasting (even if its just a day) harm, while the pain from a spanking dissipates almost immediately and there's no prolonged harm caused.

Not necessarily. Every spanking/beating can cause long lasting harm mentally. There are places on your body when punched that don't show bruises or other injuries as much as your face.

But still, you can be slapped in the face and it disappears as quickly as a spank on the butt.

[Christian Liberty]

Not necessarily. Every spanking/beating can cause long lasting harm mentally. There are places on your body when punched that don't show bruises or other injuries as much as your face.

But still, you can be slapped in the face and it disappears as quickly as a spank on the butt.

I don't buy the mental harm bit from basic spanking. If you add in other factors, sure, but I don't buy it in and of itself.

[amy31416]

Here is a scenario...

It is a hot summer day; A 10 year old girl is holding the door wide open while she is talking to the neighborhood kid next door. There are several options here to choose from.

The parent can react with reason: "Now honey, you can't let the door open while the air conditioner is on; either go out on the porch or have so-and-so come in"

Or passive aggressiveness: "Oh, why don't you open the door a little wider sweetheart, I don't think Mr. Wilson next door is feeling all the cool air."

Or anger: "For god sakes! How many times do I have to tell you to keep the freaking door shut when the air conditioner is on? NOW GO TO YOUR ROOM YOU LITTLE BRAT, YOU'RE GROUNDED!"

Or with corporeal punishment.

Option 1 is the preferred choice.
Option 2 is sometimes necessary and usually effective (especially when used against teenagers).
Option 3 sometimes occurs.
Option 4 is unnecessary, imo.

Option 5: I'll consider myself really damned lucky. My kid closes her door to her room (when the A/C is running) and always turns off the lights when she leaves a room--she's 3. And she's doing far better than I was at that age.

I think a big part of this is that I respect and love her. It's a bit strange seeing her turn into more of an adult-like person, but I respect the process and try to do what I can to make sure the whole process is healthy and even enjoyable for her.

[Christian Liberty]

And when the kid says, "$#@! you, I'll do as I please.", then what?

Yeah, this. I'd agree that spanking your child for forgetting to close the door seems harsh. Refusal, on the other hand...

[amy31416]

I don't buy the mental harm bit from basic spanking. If you add in other factors, sure, but I don't buy it in and of itself.

You have to know the child. There can be harm from spanking, my girl would be harmed by it, and I know that because I know her. I would be harmed by doing it because of the guilt.

Don't do it unless there's absolutely no other option. Seriously...if you wouldn't hit a woman or someone who's weaker than you, why would you resort to hitting a child?

[Christian Liberty]

You have to know the child. There can be harm from spanking, my girl would be harmed by it, and I know that because I know her. I would be harmed by doing it because of the guilt.

Don't do it unless there's absolutely no other option. Seriously...if you wouldn't hit a woman or someone who's weaker than you, why would you resort to hitting a child?

I'm not really arguing that one should spank, but I don't think that its a monstrosity either.

[amy31416]

Yeah, this. I'd agree that spanking your child for forgetting to close the door seems harsh. Refusal, on the other hand...

You'd rather hit a child than say something to them 3-5 times or use another method? You might want to rethink that.

It's lazy and mean.

[amy31416]

I'm not really arguing that one should spank, but I don't think that its a monstrosity either.

It is to (at least) some children. You have to be damned careful in who you choose to use violence against, you may change their life for the worse.

You're a Christian, I think, turn the other cheek and all that Jesus stuff. Why would any Christian choose to hit a child? It doesn't make sense.

[Christian Liberty]

You'd rather hit a child than say something to them 3-5 times or use another method? You might want to rethink that.

It's lazy and mean.

You think just continually repeating yourself is going to get the child to listen to you? What if they don't listen even after five times?

Again, I'm not really "defending" spanking, but I don't think its worth condemning either. I really just don't see it as being that big a deal. I was spanked tons of times as a kid, and I was very rebellious. I turned out fine.

[amy31416]

You think just continually repeating yourself is going to get the child to listen to you? What if they don't listen even after five times?

Again, I'm not really "defending" spanking, but I don't think its worth condemning either. I really just don't see it as being that big a deal. I was spanked tons of times as a kid, and I was very rebellious. I turned out fine.

Yeah. I have a kid. She's 3, she's headstrong, and a challenge...but I'm not going to take the stupid way out and start smacking her around when there are better ways. The only time I've ever smacked her is when she reached up to a hot stove, and I smacked her hand away. I had a talk with her about fire after that...she gets it and she didn't do it again. But I had to wait until she stopped freaking out about being smacked before I could talk to her.

Listen to what you're saying.

Only stupid people and sociopaths resort to violence regularly and think it's okay.

These are children that you're talking about.

(And yes, repetition does work--at least with my kid.)

[fr33]

FreedomFanatic, I know that I'm risking going off-topic here but I'd like to ask some questions about your opinions on parenting.

Do you think parents should force their religion on their young children?

Do you think parents are right to confiscate art that their teenage children purchased because it offends the parents?

I'm asking these questions because these actions did more to cause resentment in me more than any physical abuse did.

[Christian Liberty]

FreedomFanatic, I know that I'm risking going off-topic here but I'd like to ask some questions about your opinions on parenting.

Fair enough.

Do you think parents should force their religion on their young children?

This really needs to be expounded upon. My child will be going to church with our family, but I wouldn't force him to believe in Christ.

Do you think parents are right to confiscate art that their teenage children purchased because it offends the parents?

Depends. I think parents have the right to not tolerate things they disprove of in their house.

I'm asking these questions because these actions did more to cause resentment in me more than any physical abuse did.

I do believe parental authority is legitimate and that God calls parents to raise their children in godliness.

[fr33]

This really needs to be expounded upon. My child will be going to church with our family, but I wouldn't force him to believe in Christ.

It's understandable that up until a certain age, if a babysitter couldn't be hired, they have to tag along to church. I'm skeptical that you wouldn't use force to make him/her believe the way you do. I don't think you are being honest. You preach to us adults here a lot. You're not going to preach to a child who's brain has not fully developed? I don't buy it. It's very rare to meet a religious person that does not push their beliefs upon a child who has not yet reached the age of reason. Luckily you weren't raised by catholics, who force infants to be baptized catholic while the infant $#@!s and screams. But is the toddler that is being taught protestant religions intelligent enough to understand the difference between Yahweh and The Flying Spaghetti Monster? Probably not. They believe what their instructors say.

Depends. I think parents have the right to not tolerate things they disprove of in their house.

I used the word teenager because to me it meant they/I purchased the art with the money they/I earned. If they confiscate it, they surely have committed the act of theft. This is an act of aggression which naturally leads me to asking, does the child under 18 have the right to run away from home without being rounded up and returned by force? If no is the answer, I suggest that you shred your libertarian cred. Should the thief at least recompensate the victim?

I do believe parental authority is legitimate and that God calls parents to raise their children in godliness.

The Old Testament is where you find the authorization of spanking. It's also where you find the authorization of rape victims being forced to marry their attacker and where you find the justification of slavery.

[Christian Liberty]

It's understandable that up until a certain age, if a babysitter couldn't be hired, they have to tag along to church. I'm skeptical that you wouldn't use force to make him/her believe the way you do. I don't think you are being honest. You preach to us adults here a lot. You're not going to preach to a child who's brain has not fully developed?

Methinks you misunderstand the definition of "force."

I don't buy it. It's very rare to meet a religious person that does not push their beliefs upon a child who has not yet reached the age of reason.

Push? You mean like how drug dealers "push" drugs by trading them to willing customers? That kind of "push?"

Really?

Luckily you weren't raised by catholics, who force infants to be baptized catholic while the infant $#@!s and screams. But is the toddler that is being taught protestant religions intelligent enough to understand the difference between Yahweh and The Flying Spaghetti Monster? Probably not. They believe what their instructors say.

I don't even believe in infant baptism, and I think its downright absurd that you are acting like that doctrine is some kind of an atrocity.

I used the word teenager because to me it meant they/I purchased the art with the money they/I earned. If they confiscate it, they surely have committed the act of theft. This is an act of aggression which naturally leads me to asking, does the child under 18 have the right to run away from home without being rounded up and returned by force? If no is the answer, I suggest that you shred your libertarian cred. Should the thief at least recompensate the victim?

OK, so I don't know what age exactly a child is old enough to live on his own. But, I do think a parent has the right to set up rules regarding what types of art can be displayed in their house. If the parent is intelligent, I would think that such rules or at least guidelines would be set up in advance rather than it just being like "oh, you bought that and now I'm going to take it away."

I don't care if you want to let me keep my libertarian card or not, but the bottom line is that, even using purely secular reasoning (which I dislike doing), a parent is providing their teenage child with food and a place to sleep (if nothing else.) Even using purely secular logic, that would give the parent the right to set some restrictions/conditions on that if required.

The Old Testament is where you find the authorization of spanking. It's also where you find the authorization of rape victims being forced to marry their attacker and where you find the justification of slavery.

As Sola_Fide is no longer here, I'm just going to laugh this one off...

[fr33]

Methinks you misunderstand the definition of "force."

Teaching someone you're opinion before they are physically able to understand what an opinion is = force.

Push? You mean like how drug dealers "push" drugs by trading them to willing customers? That kind of "push?"

Really?

Nope that isn't what I said. Forcing harmful drugs upon healthy kids would be a more accurate comparison.

I don't even believe in infant baptism, and I think its downright absurd that you are acting like that doctrine is some kind of an atrocity.

What magical cut-off point is ok with you?

OK, so I don't know what age exactly a child is old enough to live on his own. But, I do think a parent has the right to set up rules regarding what types of art can be displayed in their house. If the parent is intelligent, I would think that such rules or at least guidelines would be set up in advance rather than it just being like "oh, you bought that and now I'm going to take it away."

Would the child be right to expect to be recompensated for his/her losses? Does being a parent mean legalized theft?

I don't care if you want to let me keep my libertarian card or not, but the bottom line is that, even using purely secular reasoning (which I dislike doing), a parent is providing their teenage child with food and a place to sleep (if nothing else.) Even using purely secular logic, that would give the parent the right to set some restrictions/conditions on that if required.

After the magical age of 18, as set by the state, parents can get sued for what mine did to me. $#@! 14 yr olds and 16 yr olds, right? They can just destroy over $200 of CDs.What is your magical age of free people? It's important. You claim to be a freedom fanatic.......

As Sola_Fide is no longer here, I'm just going to laugh this one off...

Yeah I can't expect you to operate without your baptist cult leader. The justification for beating children is found within the Old Testament. Defend it and depend on no human. It's weird how you claim to represent God but depend on someone else to defend you.

[PaulConventionWV]

Why do you want the government to tell you how to raise your children? Interesting, since you call yourself an Ancap.

I wish people would say what they're talking about when they make posts in response to something.

[Christian Liberty]

Teaching someone you're opinion before they are physically able to understand what an opinion is = force.

This is downright retarded. Plenty of people who are taught Christianity at a young age reject it later on. I should completely ignore you after this idiotic point, but I'll continue anyway.

Nope that isn't what I said. Forcing harmful drugs upon healthy kids would be a more accurate comparison.

So you assume religion is harmful. I think atheism is harmful. Which is why I used to spend so much time debating religion here... there's no such thing as religious neutrality. I respect your right to raise your child even with the harmful teaching of atheism. Do you similarly respect my right to raise my child in what you consider to be a harmful teaching?

What magical cut-off point is ok with you?

For baptists its about whether the person has a credible profession of faith and desires to be baptized. Exact age is irrelevant.

Would the child be right to expect to be recompensated for his/her losses? Does being a parent mean legalized theft?

I certainly don't want government involved there. But regarding what I personally feel would be OK, if the teen had no idea that the parent disproved of the item in question than it seems only moral to me that the parent would compensate for what they took. On the other hand, if the teen knew the rules of the house and decided to break them anyway, I see no such desire.

After the magical age of 18, as set by the state, parents can get sued for what mine did to me. $#@! 14 yr olds and 16 yr olds, right? They can just destroy over $200 of CDs.What is your magical age of free people? It's important. You claim to be a freedom fanatic.......

I don't have a magical age. The real issue for me is where the person is residing. If you are paying your own way, your parents have no right to interfere with you. If you are living in their house, they have the right to set rules. Now, that's not to say that all rules are equally reasonable or right, just that ultimately, when you live in their house you have to live under their rules.

Yeah I can't expect you to operate without your baptist cult leader. The justification for beating children is found within the Old Testament. Defend it and depend on no human. It's weird how you claim to represent God but depend on someone else to defend you.

I really just had in mind your ridiculous rape = marriage comment, because it is a logical extension of the sex = marriage doctrine that Sola has defended here in the past, but its not something that I believe at all. So, the fact that Sola is no longer here means that nobody here thinks rape creates a marriage union of any kind (To be fair, Sola, and the OTC people who he gets that doctrine from, would not actually require the woman to live in that marriage, she just wouldn't be able to marry someone else) makes that assertion pointless to respond to. The rest of it is just stupid.

[William Tell]

Teaching someone you're opinion before they are physically able to understand what an opinion is = force.

No it is not.

[pessimist]

You think just continually repeating yourself is going to get the child to listen to you? What if they don't listen even after five times?

Again, I'm not really "defending" spanking, but I don't think its worth condemning either. I really just don't see it as being that big a deal. I was spanked tons of times as a kid, and I was very rebellious. I turned out fine.

Slapping them around is hardly a reasonable response. If they're not listening after 4 or 5 times, perhaps trying another technique would be more successful? I would have to imagine being a good parent requires a lot of hard work, self-discipline, and responsibility.

But who am I to judge those who spank their children? I'm of the belief that people should have less of them.

[Snew]

Hitting a child is one of the most disgusting acts of violence outside of rape and murder. And when a parent does it, the people that are tasked with growing, encouraging, and helping a new human being, it is 10x worse. A kid is basically enslaved to parents-- they have no choice in their situation & cannot leave. If you have to resort to hitting your kid in order to teach them about the do's and don'ts of the world, you are just a $#@!ty parent.

Watch the "Bomb in the Brain" series by Stefan Molyneux. The effects that this abuse has on children is frightening, and the fact that people endorse this behavior is downright evil.

And yes, I believe spanking should be outlawed. Abuse is abuse, and violence is violence.

[William Tell]

[Seraphim]

Lack of poll option;

Kinky love making act

[William Tell]

Hitting a child is one of the most disgusting acts of violence outside of rape and murder. And when a parent does it, the people that are tasked with growing, encouraging, and helping a new human being, it is 10x worse. A kid is basically enslaved to parents-- they have no choice in their situation & cannot leave. If you have to resort to hitting your kid in order to teach them about the do's and don'ts of the world, you are just a $#@!ty parent.

Watch the "Bomb in the Brain" series by Stefan Molyneux. The effects that this abuse has on children is frightening, and the fact that people endorse this behavior is downright evil.

And yes, I believe spanking should be outlawed. Abuse is abuse, and violence is violence.

Maybe if Molyneux had been disciplined properly, he would have turned out to be a decent person. It's really eye opening to see that his disciples are willing to use the force of government to make the rest of us raise our children according to the will of the mighty Stefan. I guess y'all are gonna invade the South again to free the spanked? No thanks.

[Christian Liberty]

Maybe if Molyneux had been disciplined properly, he would have turned out to be a decent person. It's really eye opening to see that his disciples are willing to use the force of government to make the rest of us raise our children according to the will of the mighty Stefan. I guess y'all are gonna invade the South again to free the spanked? No thanks.

I'm not actually a huge fan of Molyneux, but if he's helping to make people libertarian, I'd go by the "if anyone is not against us, he's for us" approach.

I know Molyneux is morally opposed to spanking, but has he ever actually said anything about outlawing it?

[Seraphim]

How do the words of Molyneux fans make Molyneux himself an undecent person? Collectivist reasoning, much?

I've heard him speak about this topic and his position has always been argued from a standpoint of morality and societal change through persuasion. For God's sake the man wants a Stateless society and never advocates for LAWS to solve complex social issues.

So Snew wants to OUTLAW spanking. OK, good for him. What the hell does that have to do with Molyneux's character?

**facepalm**

Maybe if Molyneux had been disciplined properly, he would have turned out to be a decent person. It's really eye opening to see that his disciples are willing to use the force of government to make the rest of us raise our children according to the will of the mighty Stefan. I guess y'all are gonna invade the South again to free the spanked? No thanks.

[William Tell]

How do the words of Molyneux fans make Molyneux himself an undecent person? Collectivist reasoning, much?

I've heard him speak about this topic and his position has always been argued from a standpoint of morality and societal change through persuasion. For God's sake the man wants a Stateless society and never advocates for LAWS to solve complex social issues.

So Snew wants to OUTLAW spanking. OK, good for him. What the hell does that have to do with Molyneux's character?

**facepalm**

I dislike Molyneux because I dislike his views, not because of his fans. Do you really think I just saw Snew's post and right there decided I disliked Stefan?

[Seraphim]

I had no other information other than that. You sure presented your post as though that were the case.

I dislike Molyneux because I dislike his views, not because of his fans. Do you really think I just saw Snew's post and right there decided I disliked Stefan?

[William Tell]

I had no other information other than that. You sure presented your post as though that were the case.

I clearly knew who he was. I don't think my post read like that, but oh well.

[Christian Liberty]

I dislike Molyneux because I dislike his views, not because of his fans. Do you really think I just saw Snew's post and right there decided I disliked Stefan?

Again, I don't really care for Molyneux but I believe he's on our team, in the liberty sense. And, I have a hard time seriously disliking someone who wants to abolish the State, whatever else they may believe.

For what its worth, this thread was inspired by a conversation I had with someone who was converted to ancap through Molyneux. I don't agree with them on this issue

[Snew]

It's really eye opening to see that his disciples are willing to use the force of government to make the rest of us raise our children according to the will of the mighty Stefan.

You're missing the point, dude. Spanking isn't simply an aspect of a certain parenting style, it's a violation of the nonaggression principle against the most vulnerable beings in the entire world!

Edit: By the way, thanks for starting this topic, FF. Even if we're polar opposites on the issue it's an extremely important (if not the most important) conversation to have.