Did Michael Brown Steal Cigars — Or Pay For Them?

[Brett85]

Yes, there is evidence. Eyewitness Tiffany Mitchell said the Wilson was shooting at Brown as Brown was running.

The eyewitnesses testimony isn't consistent. The eyewitnesses are telling all kinds of different stories. Some of them are saying that Brown charged at the police officer. Since I wasn't there, I don't know what happened. No one knows for sure. I'm just going to take a wait and see attitude and wait for all of the evidence to come out.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

The eyewitnesses testimony isn't consistent.

Eyewitness testimony is still evidence. You're now questioning the veracity of the eyewitness testimony, but that does not discount that that eyewitness testimony is evidence.

The eyewitnesses are telling all kinds of different stories. Some of them are saying that Brown charged at the police officer.

No, they are not telling all kinds of different stories. The different stories are coming from people who--like you--were not there. The whole thing about Brown charging Wilson was an account from an anonymous woman on a radio call in show. The woman said she got the story from Wilson's significant other.

The account about Brown charging Wilson is not from Piaget Crenshaw, Tiffany Mitchell, or Dorian Johnson. It is not from the video in the immediate aftermath.

The account about Brown charging Wilson is from an anonymous woman on a radio call in show. This account has been swallowed up so wholeheartedly by people that I will not be surprised if it will now be in Wilson's account of what happened.

[CPUd]

Eyewitness testimony is still evidence. You're now questioning the veracity of the eyewitness testimony, but that does not discount that that eyewitness testimony is evidence.




No, they are not telling all kinds of different stories. The different stories are coming from people who--like you--were not there. The whole thing about Brown charging Wilson was an account from an anonymous woman on a radio call in show. The woman said she got the story from Wilson's significant other.

The account about Brown charging Wilson is not from Piaget Crenshaw, Tiffany Mitchell, or Dorian Johnson. It is not from the video in the immediate aftermath.

The account about Brown charging Wilson is from an anonymous woman on a radio call in show. This account has been swallowed up so wholeheartedly by people that I will not be surprised if it will now be in Wilson's account of what happened.

It could have been some misinfo put out there to tell if witnesses were giving accurate statements.

[AuH20]

Eyewitness testimony is still evidence. You're now questioning the veracity of the eyewitness testimony, but that does not discount that that eyewitness testimony is evidence.




No, they are not telling all kinds of different stories. The different stories are coming from people who--like you--were not there. The whole thing about Brown charging Wilson was an account from an anonymous woman on a radio call in show. The woman said she got the story from Wilson's significant other.

The account about Brown charging Wilson is not from Piaget Crenshaw, Tiffany Mitchell, or Dorian Johnson. It is not from the video in the immediate aftermath.

The account about Brown charging Wilson is from an anonymous woman on a radio call in show. This account has been swallowed up so wholeheartedly by people that I will not be surprised if it will now be in Wilson's account of what happened.

It's on the eyewitness tape as well. So that's two sources.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

It's on the eyewitness tape as well. So that's two sources.

No, it is not on the tape.

An anonymous woman on a radio call in show is hardly what I call a source. She got the information from Wilson's significant other. That not only makes it hearsay, but third hand hearsay. Hardly admissible in a court of law, but gospel in the court of public opinion. The court of public opinion is now the internet, where people believe practically anything written on any website.

[phill4paul]

I'm done for the night.

Michael Brown is a crisis actor and this is all a Psy-Op.

[CPUd]

I'm done for the night.

Michael Brown is a crisis actor and this is all a Psy-Op.

That's what "they" want you to think

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

So what you have now are two eyewitnesses who said that Brown had his hands up versus an anonymous woman on a radio call in show who said Brown "bum rushes" Wilson.

I'm guessing that Wilson will give an account similar to the anonymous woman, but with modification. He might say that Brown had his hands up at some point. Maybe just briefly, but then he put his hands back down at some point. Wilson won't use the term "bum rush," but he will probably say that Brown advanced on him. Perhaps Brown was walking toward Wilson with hands up. The speed at which he was walking might be a point of contention. Wilson, of course, will not possibly be able to mathematically gauge that speed, but will say that Brown was close enough and walking fast enough that he thought he was in danger.

I have yet to hear Mitchell or Crenshaw say if Brown moved with his hands up, but I've not seen all of their interviews. This movement might also be a point of contention. Did Brown move at all? Did he move a couple of steps? More?

Moreover, did Brown have his head down when he took the shot that went over his eyebrow, through his jaw, and then his torso? A head down posture would likely indicate his hands were up in the surrender position. A head down would be a more likely explanation for that bullet's path. Unlikely that he put his head down at the last second in an attempt to charge Wilson because there would not have been enough time for Wilson two get off the two head shots, especially without leaving powder burns. Or, was Brown just convulsing from the previous shots that put his head in that position?

This case will be far too muddled for any conviction.

[Mani]

For me, it's not about the cigarettes or being a thug or whatever.


I just don't follow the logic of FLEEING and CHARGING. Those are 2 very different things. If you are fleeing for your life or fleeing to not get arrested, it seems inconceivable to me to turn around a charge.

If he accidentally or purposefully gave the cop a black eye, then I could see Big Mike being afraid that now he's in deep $#@! and he's going to be arrested or shot. Or if the weapon did discharge in the vehicle, that could also scare him.

I don't see a logic where he's beating the cop into submission, and THEN as he's winning the fight he THEN decides to flee, so that really doesn't make any sense.


So back to him running for his life or to avoid arrest, I could see where a couple shots are fired and he realizes no matter how fast he is, he can't escape the speed of a bullet. Or he gets hit a couple times and realizes he'd rather get arrested and not shot dead because he's not going to outrun this guy. So he basically gives himself up.

But how does one go from thinking..."I CAN'T ESCAPE THE BULLETS, I can't run away FAST ENOUGH...But maybe I can run towards him!?!? " What!?! Has that ever worked in the history of mankind (not in the movies) where a guy in an OPEN area (not backed up against the wall) is fleeing, and then gets scared and gives up..And then says..."Hey, why don't I charge right at him?? I should be able to cross 35 feet fast enough to disarm him as he shoots me 10 times and I make myself an easier target every 1 foot I go toward him..." How is that even considered an option by anyone??

I'm not able to follow that logic at all. The guy ran....I think that's not being debated. There was a possible scuffle in the car...Then there was a distance between where the guy was..and where the cop was.....So...The logical explanation is..The guy ran away...

I also think it's not being disputed the cop chased after...



So how do we go from FLEEING to charging??? I can't see it. He's not roided up, drugged up, cocained up, or drunk, to use as an excuse as to why anyone would flee then turn around and rush a guy shooting at him.

If anyone is claiming he didn't flee...Then why was his body not laying next to the cop SUV. The only explanation is he ran away from the cop and the SUV.

And if he DID beat up the cop so badly and was winning the fight...Why the heck would he leave and run away, and then turn and run back to finish off the cop?? Huh!?! That makes no $#@!ing sense whatsoever.




Personally, I could very well see the following scenario:


Big bad Mike is strutting along on his home turf through the street. The cop who loves to throw around his authority as he drives by, tells the guys to "Get the $#@! off the road and onto the sidewalk."
Big bad Mike doesn't take $#@! from anyone and says, "We almost hom bitch!" and to his friend, "$#@!ing pigs!"
Cop hears something...Cops don't like thugs who try to talk back to authority figures. He reverses and surprises the 2 guys and slams open his door open looking to teach some thugs their place. The Force knocks the guys but the door bounces back and hits the officer. "Now you DONE it!" thinks the officer believing this is an act of aggression.
He grabs at big Mike and a struggle ensues. Mike maybe takes a couple swings at the officer to get him off. The officer realizes this is escalating and Mike is strong and begins reaching for his holster. Mike sees this and reaches for his arm to prevent the cop from getting out the gun. There's a struggle to get the gun out and it goes off. Mike wants to get the $#@! outta here. He gets one clean haymaker at the officers face and it stuns the cop enough to make the cop let go.

Mike and his friend run for their lives. The cop with his bloodied face jumps out of the vehicle and gives chase, he starts firing. Mike gets hit and realizes he's $#@!ed, he's not going to be able to escape, this cop might shoot him dead, his only option is give up and live to see tomorrow....He puts his hands up and surrenders. Cop adrenaline pumping through his veins, one eye closed and blood all over his face just continues to fire as he runs towards big Mike, and fires again and again and again. Cop's last couple of shots were from closer distance and Mike was already face in the sidewalk by then or slumped forward by then, which is why some of the bullets seem to have a downward trajectory in the autopsy.

Cop realizes he might be in the wrong side of town to gun down a thug and doesn't bother to call it in.


I don't know if that's the real scenario, but I could definitely seeing this as a probable scenario. In the end it doesn't matter if Mike stole cigarettes are not. Mike should have to go to court and be charged with striking an officer, and in court prove it was self defense (if the cop pictures appear with him having a broken face). The moment he disengaged and ran away the cop no longer has a right to use lethal force. And enough witnesses are saying his hands were up, and that's how the whole hands up act formed during these protests. Regardless of his hand were really up, I don't see how lethal force was still OK after he disengaged and ran away. Does the cop need to pursue and apprehend him? Sure. OK. I can give you that. But gun him down??? Not in my opinion.


Mike's character doesn't matter. Mike being a thug doesn't matter. Mike robbing cigarettes doesn't matter. When he disengaged and ran away, IMO lethal force is no longer an option. His hands were up, there's no story saying he reached into his pocket, I thought I saw him reach for a weapon. None of that B.S. Maybe the cop was in fear of his safety while struggling in the car...But after Mike ran away....that fear of safety doesn't apply anymore.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

For me, it's not about the cigarettes or being a thug or whatever.


I just don't follow the logic of FLEEING and CHARGING. Those are 2 very different things. If you are fleeing for your life or fleeing to not get arrested, it seems inconceivable to me to turn around a charge.

If he accidentally or purposefully gave the cop a black eye, then I could see Big Mike being afraid that now he's in deep $#@! and he's going to be arrested or shot. Or if the weapon did discharge in the vehicle, that could also scare him.

I don't see a logic where he's beating the cop into submission, and THEN as he's winning the fight he THEN decides to flee, so that really doesn't make any sense.


So back to him running for his life or to avoid arrest, I could see where a couple shots are fired and he realizes no matter how fast he is, he can't escape the speed of a bullet. Or he gets hit a couple times and realizes he'd rather get arrested and not shot dead because he's not going to outrun this guy. So he basically gives himself up.

But how does one go from thinking..."I CAN'T ESCAPE THE BULLETS, I can't run away FAST ENOUGH...But maybe I can run towards him!?!? " What!?! Has that ever worked in the history of mankind (not in the movies) where a guy in an OPEN area (not backed up against the wall) is fleeing, and then gets scared and gives up..And then says..."Hey, why don't I charge right at him?? I should be able to cross 35 feet fast enough to disarm him as he shoots me 10 times and I make myself an easier target every 1 foot I go toward him..." How is that even considered an option by anyone??

I'm not able to follow that logic at all. The guy ran....I think that's not being debated. There was a possible scuffle in the car...Then there was a distance between where the guy was..and where the cop was.....So...The logical explanation is..The guy ran away...

I also think it's not being disputed the cop chased after...



So how do we go from FLEEING to charging??? I can't see it. He's not roided up, drugged up, cocained up, or drunk, to use as an excuse as to why anyone would flee then turn around and rush a guy shooting at him.

If anyone is claiming he didn't flee...Then why was his body not laying next to the cop SUV. The only explanation is he ran away from the cop and the SUV.

And if he DID beat up the cop so badly and was winning the fight...Why the heck would he leave and run away, and then turn and run back to finish off the cop?? Huh!?! That makes no $#@!ing sense whatsoever.

This is more nuance that will be lost on most Americans. Brown charging Wilson comes from an anonymous woman on a radio call in show.

Mani, most people here don't even want to read posts as long as your post. Hearsay is the easy and lazy way. Many people here believe the charging scenario that has zero evidence.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

I don't see a logic where he's beating the cop into submission, and THEN as he's winning the fight he THEN decides to flee, so that really doesn't make any sense.


So back to him running for his life or to avoid arrest, I could see where a couple shots are fired and he realizes no matter how fast he is, he can't escape the speed of a bullet. Or he gets hit a couple times and realizes he'd rather get arrested and not shot dead because he's not going to outrun this guy. So he basically gives himself up.

The real kicker in this story is how the anonymous woman on the radio call in show said Brown was taunting Wilson, asking Wilson if the officer was really going to shoot him when he was walking back towards the cop (paraphrase: What are you going to do, shoot me?!). If I had to bet money, then I'd say that woman is nothing but a piece of garbage liar. They planned to float that story on the internet and gauge the reaction. Good for them that so many fell for it, including the people here.

[orenbus]

[outspoken]

I find it amazing how many professed Ron Paul supporters can have such varied opinions on this situation. The paramount principle that RP espouses is that of non-violence. Assuming this guy fractured the cops face and based on the video of him strong arming the store clerk it is readily apparent this guy had a propensity for violence. We haven't seen his rap sheet but would be curious as to what it would show... I am sure many would be afraid this could be construed as character assassination. Painting this guy as a saint is rediculous and blacks are only hurting their often valid case but using this individual as the calling cry. It appears the cop was doing his job as even Mr. holder can see.

[TheTexan]

I find it amazing how many professed Ron Paul supporters can have such varied opinions on this situation. The paramount principle that RP espouses is that of non-violence. Assuming this guy fractured the cops face and based on the video of him strong arming the store clerk it is readily apparent this guy had a propensity for violence. We haven't seen his rap sheet but would be curious as to what it would show... I am sure many would be afraid this could be construed as character assassination. Painting this guy as a saint is rediculous and blacks are only hurting their often valid case but using this individual as the calling cry. It appears the cop was doing his job as even Mr. holder can see.

That's probably a safe assumption. The cops did indeed say that's what happened.

[orenbus]

I find it amazing how many professed Ron Paul supporters can have such varied opinions on this situation. The paramount principle that RP espouses is that of non-violence. Assuming this guy fractured the cops face and based on the video of him strong arming the store clerk it is readily apparent this guy had a propensity for violence. We haven't seen his rap sheet but would be curious as to what it would show... I am sure many would be afraid this could be construed as character assassination. Painting this guy as a saint is rediculous and blacks are only hurting their often valid case but using this individual as the calling cry. It appears the cop was doing his job as even Mr. holder can see.

He didn't have a "rap sheet" or criminal record, the media already checked into this, although not surprising since he was only 18. He may or may not have had a juvenile record, but we will never know since if any record existed it's most likely sealed.

[AFPVet]

This is classic race baiting. If it were a white kid, we wouldn't hear so much about it. http://www.redflagnews.com/headlines...ent-kutv-video

[orenbus]

I don't agree with everything these guys are saying, they make some interesting points about the Chief tho:

[BlackTerrel]

I haven't been here in a while but we now have people who support a cop shooting an unarmed man?

What happened over the last few months?

[Anti Federalist]

I haven't been here in a while but we now have people who support a cop shooting an unarmed man?

What happened over the last few months?

I was wondering when you were going to check in...how ya been?

Well, we have a few people of the "Mike Brown did this to himself" persuasion.

[AuH20]

I haven't been here in a while but we now have people who support a cop shooting an unarmed man?

What happened over the last few months?

I don't think it is that simple.



Now the cop could certainly guilty of utilizing excessive force after the confrontation escalated, which is what we're waiting for confirmation on. Obviously, if the emotionally manipulated masses had their way, there would be no trial. Wilson would be simply be hung for being a white cop.

[AuH20]

What did you read?

Now hearing Sig Sauer P226 or P229 with 9x19mm Parabellum rounds. I think that's why they referred to as 9mm.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9%C3%9719mm_Parabellum

The 9×19mm Parabellum (abbreviated 9mm, 9mmP, 9×19mm or 9×19) cartridge was designed by Georg Luger and introduced in 1902 by the German weapons manufacturer Deutsche Waffen- und Munitionsfabriken (DWM) for their Luger semi-automatic pistol.[5] For this reason, it is designated as the 9mm Luger / 9mm Luger +P by the SAAMI[6] and the 9 mm Luger by the C.I.P. (differentiating it from the 9mm Makarov and 9mm Browning cartridges). Under STANAG 4090, it is a standard cartridge for NATO forces as well as many non-NATO countries.[7]

The name Parabellum is derived from the Latin: Si vis pacem, para bellum ("If you seek peace, prepare for war"), which was the motto of DWM.[8][9]

According to the 2006 edition of Cartridges of the World, the 9×19mm Parabellum is "the world's most popular and widely used military handgun cartridge."[10] In addition to being used by over 60% of police in the U.S., Newsweek credits 9×19mm Parabellum pistol sales with making semi-automatic pistols more popular than revolvers.[11] The popularity of this cartridge can be attributed to the widely held conviction that it is effective in police and self-defense use.[12] Its low cost and wide availability are self-sustaining contributors to the caliber's continuing popularity.

[kcchiefs6465]

Now hearing Sig Sauer P226 or P229 with 9x19mm Parabellum rounds. I think that's why they referred to as 9mm.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9%C3%9719mm_Parabellum

Ah. Thanks. I know what 9mm is. The Sig would be his personal weapon that he opted to carry. If not he'd have been carrying the Glock 17 or 22 or the M&P 9 or 40.

I, and someone else, apparently, just were curious of what firearm the 7mm that he was possibly carrying was referring to and why anyone would carry one.

Supposedly, the county has been dragging their feet in upgrading their sidearms. 7mm is the standard issue for that particular PD.

I was particularly curious of what other 'facts' might have come from the article that supposed the department carried 7mm pistols. Do you know which article it was by chance?

[AuH20]

I was particularly curious of what other 'facts' might have come from the article that supposed the department carried 7mm pistols. Do you know which article it was by chance?

There was originally a blurb on AR-15.com about it. That's where the 7mm rumor came from regarding the department issue. Let me go look.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Here's a more complete video than that posted in the OP. It looks to me like Brown puts two items on the counter. Is it two items for purchase? Is it one item and money? He then takes an item and hands it to Johnson. Johnson eventually puts that item back on the counter.