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Thread: Ferguson- "Big Mike" had just strong arm-robbed a convenience store (PICS)

  1. #1

    Ferguson- "Big Mike" had just strong arm-robbed a convenience store (PICS)

    Does the fact that the 'poor gentle giant' the media is playing up has, in fact, turned out to be a violent robber change anything for you?




    http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/c...628d0be04.html

    This gives a hell of a lot more credibility to the police version of events versus Brown's robbery accomplice who basically said the cop 'shot him for no reason'

    The officer responded to the robbery at the convenient store, got a description of two black men (and what clothes they were wearing), and their direction of travel on foot. The officer sees the suspects and attempts to engage them. They fight.

    What happens from there is still up in the air until more facts come out.

    It does not change my opinion of militarized police and the like, but it certainly changes my opinion of the shooting. In my view, it would be very justifiable for the officer to shoot if "Big Mike" started fighting the officer and grabbing his weapon (as claimed). Now as to the reports of shooting Brown from a far distance while hands up, etc. If that turns out to be true then the cop should burn for it.

    This just proves that too many people, including those on RPF, are too quick to jump to conclusions without all the facts and condemn ANY police action regardless of what really happened.
    There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
    -Major General Smedley Butler, USMC,
    Two-Time Congressional Medal of Honor Winner
    Author of, War is a Racket!

    It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours.
    - Diogenes of Sinope



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  3. #2
    Man... LEFT-RIGHT, TRAY-VON. LEFT-RIGHT, TRAY-VON. 1-2, 3-4, 3-4, 1-2... LEFT-RIGHT, TRAY-VON!

    Perfect cadence.... Wonder why that is? Not really.

    Gulag Chief:
    "Article 58-1a, twenty five years... What did you get it for?"
    Gulag Prisoner: "For nothing at all."
    Gulag Chief: "You're lying... The sentence for nothing at all is 10 years"



  4. #3
    Is it okay to strip the federal funding from the tax-ticks now or does this somehow justify funding the cop-tick faction?

  5. #4
    What does the law provide for the crime of robbery? Summary execution, right? Those pansy-ass Saudis with their wimpy hand-chopping, they don't know how to be tough on crime.

  6. #5
    Will Grigg:

    Ferguson Police Chief Thomas Jackson, in a press conference notable for its brevity, identified the officer who shot Michael Brown as Darren Wilson, a six-year veteran of his department. Information distributed to the media included reports suggesting that Brown was a suspect in a strong-arm robbery of a package of cigars at a local convenience store. Still photographs, reportedly of the incident in the local QuikTrip, show a large young man resembling Brown involved in what appeared to be an assault on a much smaller individual in the store.

    If Brown was a suspect in a crime of that kind, this case would have uncanny similarities to the 1974 incident in which another teenaged suspect, Edward Garner, was fatally shot while attempting to flee from a Memphis police officer following a burglary. As noted previously, that case went before the Supreme Court a decade later, resulting in the 1985 Tennessee v. Garner ruling in which the Court held that “The use of deadly force to prevent the escape of all felony suspects, whatever the circumstances, is constitutionally unreasonable.” This was a rejection of the “Any Felony Rule” under which officers in many states, including Tennessee, were authorized to use deadly force to stop a fleeing or resisting suspect.
    cont.
    http://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/...the-iron-fist/

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by jllundqu View Post
    Does the fact that the 'poor gentle giant' the media is playing up has, in fact, turned out to be a violent robber change anything for you?

    []

    This just proves that too many people, including those on RPF, are too quick to jump to conclusions without all the facts and condemn ANY police action regardless of what really happened.

    Nope.. I'm with this guy:

    “It's not OK for anyone to steal, but there's a way to arrest someone without killing them,” Whittaker said.

    Innocent until summarily executed?

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by green73 View Post
    I'm very familiar with Tennesee V. Garner, as well as Graham V. Connor, Scott V. Harris, and other use of force case law. The facts will dictate what happened. What has been reported is that when the officer went to get out of his vehicle, "Big Mike"started fighting with the officer (the officer sustained head wounds) and the officer fired the first shot from INSIDE the vehicle (not from 30 feet away). What happened after that is very much up in the air. If the facts show the officer did shoot a 'fleeing suspect' he would indeed be violating Tennesee V. Garner and would get busted for it. If the facts show the officer fought a much bigger violent robbery suspect who attempted to grab his weapon (as was also reported) which led to the shooting, that's a different story.

    The facts will come out. I am not so quick to judge the police in this case. That's all I'm saying.
    There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
    -Major General Smedley Butler, USMC,
    Two-Time Congressional Medal of Honor Winner
    Author of, War is a Racket!

    It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours.
    - Diogenes of Sinope

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by jllundqu View Post
    Does the fact that the 'poor gentle giant' the media is playing up has, in fact, turned out to be a violent robber change anything for you?




    http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/c...628d0be04.html

    This gives a hell of a lot more credibility to the police version of events versus Brown's robbery accomplice who basically said the cop 'shot him for no reason'

    The officer responded to the robbery at the convenient store, got a description of two black men (and what clothes they were wearing), and their direction of travel on foot. The officer sees the suspects and attempts to engage them. They fight.

    What happens from there is still up in the air until more facts come out.

    It does not change my opinion of militarized police and the like, but it certainly changes my opinion of the shooting. In my view, it would be very justifiable for the officer to shoot if "Big Mike" started fighting the officer and grabbing his weapon (as claimed). Now as to the reports of shooting Brown from a far distance while hands up, etc. If that turns out to be true then the cop should burn for it.

    This just proves that too many people, including those on RPF, are too quick to jump to conclusions without all the facts and condemn ANY police action regardless of what really happened.
    What happened to police brutality,they could have given him a special treatment in the police station for resisting,they don't have to kill him.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by jllundqu View Post
    The facts will come out. I am not so quick to judge the police in this case. That's all I'm saying.
    The fact that the police arrested reporters and tear gassed a news crew is out.

    These are serious felonies, by the way.

    Is there any doubt in your mind that there will be no justice against the officers who perpetrated those crimes?

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Demigod View Post
    What happened to police brutality,they could have given him a special treatment in the police station for resisting,they don't have to kill him.
    I know they didn't have to kill him. The cop who shot him fired his first shot from INSIDE his vehicle while fighting with Brown so obvioulsy they got tangled up. If Brown grabbed his weapon or was winning the fight, the officer had reason to shoot. We don't know what happened but I seriously doubt the cop just "shot Brown for no reason"
    There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
    -Major General Smedley Butler, USMC,
    Two-Time Congressional Medal of Honor Winner
    Author of, War is a Racket!

    It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours.
    - Diogenes of Sinope

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    The fact that the police arrested reporters and tear gassed a news crew is out.

    These are serious felonies, by the way.

    Is there any doubt in your mind that there will be no justice against the officers who perpetrated those crimes?
    Once again, this thread is separate from the militarization of police and the ensuing brutaliity. You and I agree wholeheartedly on that issue.

    I'm just saying that as facts roll out on the Brown case, it doesn't look quite so rosey. The militarized police response is unconstitutional and I stand with Rand on that issue
    There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
    -Major General Smedley Butler, USMC,
    Two-Time Congressional Medal of Honor Winner
    Author of, War is a Racket!

    It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours.
    - Diogenes of Sinope

  14. #12
    Yup - deploy the burners. Spare the courts

    Gulag Chief:
    "Article 58-1a, twenty five years... What did you get it for?"
    Gulag Prisoner: "For nothing at all."
    Gulag Chief: "You're lying... The sentence for nothing at all is 10 years"



  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by jllundqu View Post
    Once again, this thread is separate from the militarization of police and the ensuing brutaliity. You and I agree wholeheartedly on that issue.
    Then you know the answer to your original question, that Brown having just robbed a store doesn't change a thing.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    Then you know the answer to your original question, that Brown having just robbed a store doesn't change a thing.
    It changes quite a bit actually.

    The "Graham factors" for constitutional use of force include "What information about the subject was known by the officer at the time of the incident?" The officer had reason to suspect Brown was a violent robbery suspect which changed the entire encounter. Brown and the officer fought, that much we know. As for who hit who, or if Brown tried to grab his weapon, or if Brown was shot from a distance, we don't know that yet since the only 'eyewitness account' of the incident is also a lying sack of $#@! who robbed a convenience store with Brown.

    The way the Ferguson police responded to the protests is awful and shameful and should be fought against with everything in the tool box, but the INCIDENT that caused the protests is NOT as black and white as people here are hell-bent on believing it to be, simply because they hate cops.
    There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
    -Major General Smedley Butler, USMC,
    Two-Time Congressional Medal of Honor Winner
    Author of, War is a Racket!

    It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours.
    - Diogenes of Sinope

  17. #15
    Well, that just wraps up everything in a nice neat package.

    Justified.

    Move along...

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by jllundqu View Post
    It changes quite a bit actually.
    I wholly disagree, and I've explained in detail here: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...47#post5617647



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by jllundqu View Post
    Does the fact that the 'poor gentle giant' the media is playing up has, in fact, turned out to be a violent robber change anything for you?
    No, from what I understand he was unarmed and surrendering when he was shot.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Well, that just wraps up everything in a nice neat package.

    Justified.

    Move along...
    You people... I swear. Did I say or even IMPLY that it was justified? NO! I am saying the facts are not as the lying eyewitness said they were and the fact that Brown is a violent felon changed everything. If the facts come out that the cop shot Brown while fleeing or shot him with his hands up or anything like that, the cop should be $#@!ing hanged!

    Employ some basic critical thinking, for christ's sake.
    There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
    -Major General Smedley Butler, USMC,
    Two-Time Congressional Medal of Honor Winner
    Author of, War is a Racket!

    It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours.
    - Diogenes of Sinope

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    I wholly disagree, and I've explained in detail here: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...47#post5617647
    I agree with everything you wrote in that post. How is it different from what I'm saying? If the facts show the cop did anything you describe, then yes, hes toast.
    There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
    -Major General Smedley Butler, USMC,
    Two-Time Congressional Medal of Honor Winner
    Author of, War is a Racket!

    It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours.
    - Diogenes of Sinope

  23. #20
    As I read more and more reports, it is showing that the officer did in fact shoot Brown from a great distance (after firing the first shot from in the patrol car). If that's the case and Brown was in fact unarmed, that officer is screwed. He shot an unarmed fleeing suspect and should pay for it.
    There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
    -Major General Smedley Butler, USMC,
    Two-Time Congressional Medal of Honor Winner
    Author of, War is a Racket!

    It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours.
    - Diogenes of Sinope

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by jllundqu View Post
    I agree with everything you wrote in that post. How is it different from what I'm saying? If the facts show the cop did anything you describe, then yes, hes toast.
    Right. Now combine that with the PD's posture on getting info out to the public:

    - slow to explain officer's actions
    - autopsy report withheld
    - no dashcams AND an unaccompanied officer
    - felonious assaults and kidnapping of journalists
    - FAA flight restriction to keep news choppers out
    - repeatedly engages protestors with paramilitary unit rather than trying to talk with them

    There is something seriously wrong with this particular PD and their view of their mission, a wrongness which is not compatible with our laws. They behave like an occupying force, premeditatively so, as is evidenced by the acquisition and distribution of military equipment and their population-engagement strategy.

    This is my concern because I believe this wrongness exists in PDs throughout the country and Ferguson could just as well have been almost anywhere.

    Americans cannot be subject to summary punishment at the hands of police. That is the issue which turned a local incident into a national one.

  25. #22
    Based on the idea of natural rights, government secures those rights to the individual by strictly negative intervention, making justice costless and easy of access; and beyond that it does not go. The State, on the other hand, both in its genesis and by its primary intention, is purely anti-social. It is not based on the idea of natural rights, but on the idea that the individual has no rights except those that the State may provisionally grant him. It has always made justice costly and difficult of access, and has invariably held itself above justice and common morality whenever it could advantage itself by so doing.
    --Albert J. Nock

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by jllundqu View Post
    I know they didn't have to kill him. The cop who shot him fired his first shot from INSIDE his vehicle while fighting with Brown so obvioulsy they got tangled up.
    The way I understood it, the cop grabbed brown by the throat, stuck a gun in his chest and fired. I suspect brown had his hands around the cops arm as a natural reaction to someone apply pressure to the throat.


    Grab suspect by throat, wait for reaction, shoot.

    Wait for "felony suspect to flee", shoot again.


    Justice.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by jllundqu View Post
    I'm very familiar with Tennesee V. Garner, as well as Graham V. Connor, Scott V. Harris, and other use of force case law. The facts will dictate what happened. What has been reported is that when the officer went to get out of his vehicle, "Big Mike"started fighting with the officer (the officer sustained head wounds) and the officer fired the first shot from INSIDE the vehicle (not from 30 feet away). What happened after that is very much up in the air. If the facts show the officer did shoot a 'fleeing suspect' he would indeed be violating Tennesee V. Garner and would get busted for it. If the facts show the officer fought a much bigger violent robbery suspect who attempted to grab his weapon (as was also reported) which led to the shooting, that's a different story.

    The facts will come out. I am not so quick to judge the police in this case. That's all I'm saying.
    I'm wondering how Big Mike managed to reach for the officer's weapon while the officer was sitting in the vehicle, particularly since the vast majority of people are right-handed, so it's more likely than not that the officer had his firearm holstered on his right side. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I would need further information.

    In any event, whatever Big Mike may or may not have been is simply a Red Herring. The real issues are:

    1. The police summarily execute citizens for petty crimes, fleeing, etc.
    2. The police responded with militaristic force against U.S. citizens.

    These issues are far, far more important than some jackass teenager stealing a cigar.
    "I shall bring justice to Westeros. Every man shall reap what he has sown, from the highest lord to the lowest gutter rat. They have made my kingdom bleed, and I do not forget that."
    -Stannis Baratheon



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by jllundqu View Post
    Once again, this thread is separate from the militarization of police and the ensuing brutaliity.
    Then this entire thread is a Red Herring.
    "I shall bring justice to Westeros. Every man shall reap what he has sown, from the highest lord to the lowest gutter rat. They have made my kingdom bleed, and I do not forget that."
    -Stannis Baratheon

  30. #26
    One more ex-teenage thug that won't be missed.

  31. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by jllundqu View Post
    It changes quite a bit actually.

    The "Graham factors" for constitutional use of force include "What information about the subject was known by the officer at the time of the incident?" The officer had reason to suspect Brown was a violent robbery suspect which changed the entire encounter. Brown and the officer fought, that much we know. As for who hit who, or if Brown tried to grab his weapon, or if Brown was shot from a distance, we don't know that yet since the only 'eyewitness account' of the incident is also a lying sack of $#@! who robbed a convenience store with Brown.

    The way the Ferguson police responded to the protests is awful and shameful and should be fought against with everything in the tool box, but the INCIDENT that caused the protests is NOT as black and white as people here are hell-bent on believing it to be, simply because they hate cops.
    Yes. That was evident from the beginning. And with that said, there are logical reasons to hate cops but this case appears to not be one of them.

  32. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    One more ex-teenage thug that won't be missed.
    He'll still get memorial t shirts you would think. There is money to be made and outrage to be dispensed around the land.

  33. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by jllundqu View Post
    As I read more and more reports, it is showing that the officer did in fact shoot Brown from a great distance (after firing the first shot from in the patrol car). If that's the case and Brown was in fact unarmed, that officer is screwed. He shot an unarmed fleeing suspect and should pay for it.
    Agreed. Manslaughter as opposed to unprovoked homicide if true.

  34. #30
    I guess that's why they wrote 'SNITCHES' on the QT sign.

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