Mary the Queen of Heaven

[lilymc]

You find it bizarre that we consider ourselves in the family of God through Jesus and his mother? Jesus didn't just drop from the heavens. He was born of a woman who was his mother. Jesus is our brother, so his mother is our mother.

No one has called her a deity. Earlier you said you accused no one in this thread of worshipping Mary. I hope you are sticking to that.

I do think some get carried away with their devotion to the woman, but the photos you post don't prove they are worshipping her. They are probably in prayer WITH her to her son, our brother.
Back to this... A woman is crowned in heaven. You and Pete say this is Israel. Does this mean that YOU worship Israel? By the logic you apply to us, it does.

No it's not. She is NOT God. We don't worship her. We revere her as the Hebrews revered the Ark of the Old Covenant.

So you misspoke when you said your weren't accusing anyone on this thread of Mary worship?

No, most people don't call her a deity. But actions speak louder than words, and the reality is that many Catholics worldwide (some more than other, of course) ACT as if Mary is a deity.

As for you guys, I didn't think you were Mary worshippers, that is why I stated that earlier on the thread. But I do think that you guys are defending actions that, when put all together, basically amount to worship. You don't see it that way, and you seem to be sincere, but that doesn't change the reality. You guys are defending ideas about Mary that are unbiblical, and downplaying actions that are idolatrous.

Did you watch that documentary I posted earlier? I'll post it again. Please take the time to watch it. This is a serious thing, because millions of people around the world are being deceived.

If you watch this, you will see what I'm talking about...

[RJB]

You guys are defending ideas about Mary that are unbiblical, and downplaying actions that are idolatrous.

It's unbiblical that the Mother of Jesus, who is our brother, is our mother as well and that she carried in her womb the New Covenant so we see her as the Ark of the New Covenant when the Word became flesh?

Did you watch that documentary I posted earlier? I'll post it again. Please take the time to watch it. This is a serious thing, because millions of people around the world are being deceived.

I said I think that a minority do get carried away, but that doesn't apply to this thread. To answer your obsession, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the more militant people in the mariology movement broke off and formed their own church. They strike me as off the wall as a lot of the protestant sects predicting certain dates that the world will end.

[TER]

Lily, here is an illustration of Moses and Joshua bowing down in front of the Ark. Are they committing idolatry?

[RJB]

Israel, not Mary is the "woman" referred to in Revelation Ch. 12.

Pretty much every commentary I've read says that it is Israel. The 12 stars in the crown refer to the twelve tribes of Israel.

I would be very cautious believing that the state of Israel was crowned in that verse. You guys probably worship the state of Israel without realizing it...

And the use of commentary when reading the Book of Revelation? What happened to Sola Scriptura? Commentary is nothing but the errors of men, right?

[RJB]

Israel, not Mary is the "woman" referred to in Revelation Ch. 12.

One more warning for Kevin about worshipping the State of Israel from a website that he likes.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False...l_idolatry.htm

The Sin Of Worshipping The Land Of Israel Instead Of The God Of Israel

By David J. Stewart
Exodus 20:3, “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.”


The following image is a snapshot from a Jewish website, promoting the cause of the Christians United For Israel (CUFI) activist group. This is an unbiblical website. They advertise, “Make A Difference For Israel Every Day.” It makes me want to go vomit and I know God feels the same way. I am compelled to start an organization called, “Christians United Against Israel,” because Israel today is a shameful nation that has abandoned the God of the Bible. Christian tourists are being spit upon by Jews in Israel today. I dare you to find the Gospel anywhere on the CUFI website.

[lilymc]

It's unbiblical that the Mother of Jesus, who is our brother, is our mother as well and that she carried in her womb the New Covenant so we see her as the Ark of the New Covenant when the Word became flesh?

Mary was Jesus' earthly mother. The RCC/EO took that a step further and said she is the "Mother of God." That is a deceptive phrase, because it can easily mislead some people into thinking that Mary is somehow above God. God is eternal, there is no one above God, and no one before God.

Although Jesus began to exist as a man, He always existed as the second person of the trinity. So Mary is only Jesus' mother in the earthly sense. And as I already pointed out in my previous post (with Jesus' own words) what is important to God is NOT earthly relationships, but who does God's will, who is saved. True "born from above" believers are adopted into God's family, as sons and daughters of God.

Mary is not our "mother" because Mary is not a God, she is not on the same level as God.

Mary is Jesus' earthly mother, period. She is not OUR mother. You can play around with semantics all you want, but it doesn't change the reality.

I said I think that a minority do get carried away, but that doesn't apply to this thread. To answer your obsession, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the more militant people in the mariology movement broke off and formed their own church. They strike me as off the wall as a lot of the protestant sects predicting certain dates that the world will end.

I don't think it's a small minority. I live in Mexico, and I can see firsthand statues and shrines all over the place of Mary/"Our Lady of Guadalupe." They have parades every year, that are a huge deal. In Mexico city, people crawl for long distances on their knees just to bow down before a painting of Mary.

Like I said, I know you guys don't do that sort of thing, but I think it is the false doctrines and ideas of the Catholic church that inevitably produce that kind of idolatry that I just described.

[RJB]

Why do you worship the state of Israel?

Mary was Jesus' earthly mother. The RCC/EO took that a step further and said she is the "Mother of God." That is a deceptive phrase, because it can easily mislead some people into thinking that Mary is somehow above God. God is eternal, there is no one above God, and no one before God.

Although Jesus began to exist as a man, He always existed as the second person of the trinity. So Mary is only Jesus' mother in the earthly sense. And as I already pointed out in my previous post (with Jesus' own words) what is important to God is NOT earthly relationships, but who does God's will, who is saved. True "born from above" believers are adopted into God's family, as sons and daughters of God.

Mary is not our "mother" because Mary is not a God, she is not on the same level as God.

Mary is Jesus' earthly mother, period. She is not OUR mother. You can play around with semantics all you want, but it doesn't change the reality.




I don't think it's a small minority. I live in Mexico, and I can see firsthand statues and shrines all over the place of Mary/"Our Lady of Guadalupe." They have parades every year, that are a huge deal. In Mexico city, people crawl for long distances on their knees just to bow down before a painting of Mary.

Like I said, I know you guys don't do that sort of thing, but I think it is the false doctrines and ideas of the Catholic church that inevitably produce that kind of idolatry that I just described.

[lilymc]

Why do you worship the state of Israel?

I don't worship anyone but God.

[heavenlyboy34]

I don't want to offend anyone, but I can't be silent on something so important. This is just a bizarre view of Christianity.

Mary is not our mother, Mary was Jesus' earthly mother. HE even made a point (repeatedly) that the important thing was not who our earthly parents or siblings are, but who does the will of God... He said:

And his mother and his brothers came, and standing outside they sent to him and called him. And a crowd was sitting around him, and they said to him, “Your mother and your brothers are outside, seeking you.” And he answered them, “Who are my mother and my brothers?” And looking about at those who sat around him, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.”

Mark 3:31-35

It is good to honor and respect Mary, but that is not what the RCC (or EO, apparently) does. Calling someone the "Queen of Heaven", praying to Mary, bowing down before her statue, all of those things are treating her like a deity.

Stating "We're not worshipping her, we're venerating her" is akin to saying "I'm not laughing, I'm giggling." It's just semantics.

pcosmar is absolutely right. This entire thread is a justification for exalting Mary, and defending unbiblical ideas.

100% wrong. (Are you one of those people who has so much time on their hands that they can sit around dreaming up ways to troll forums? There is no way a reasoning person can come up with the kind of things you do on these sort of topics. )Dictionaries are your friends:

venerate

[ven-uh-reyt]

• Examples
• Word Origin

verb (used with object), venerated, venerating. 1. to regard or treat with reverence; revere.




worship

[wur-ship]

• Synonyms
• Examples
• Word Origin

noun 1. reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.

2. formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: They attended worship this morning.


3. adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of business success.


4. the object of adoring reverence or regard.

5. (initial capital letter) British. a title of honor used in addressing or mentioning certain magistrates and others of high rank or station (usually preceded by Your, His, or Her).

verb (used with object), worshiped, worshiping or (especially British) worshipped, worshipping. 6. to render religious reverence and homage to.

7. to feel an adoring reverence or regard for (any person or thing).

verb (used without object), worshiped, worshiping or (especially British) worshipped, worshipping. 8. to render religious reverence and homage, as to a deity.

9. to attend services of divine worship.

10. to feel an adoring reverence or regard.

[RJB]

I don't worship anyone but God.

Oh but millions of protestants do. Did you see that link I posted above? You believe that the State of Israel was the woman who was crowned based on unbiblical commentary (you admitted it.) I believe its my duty to interrupt a thread with 578+ posts to mention the unrelated protestant obsession with Israel worship.

[heavenlyboy34]

Mary was Jesus' earthly mother. The RCC/EO took that a step further and said she is the "Mother of God." That is a deceptive phrase, because it can easily mislead some people into thinking that Mary is somehow above God. God is eternal, there is no one above God, and no one before God.

Although Jesus began to exist as a man, He always existed as the second person of the trinity. So Mary is only Jesus' mother in the earthly sense. And as I already pointed out in my previous post (with Jesus' own words) what is important to God is NOT earthly relationships, but who does God's will, who is saved. True "born from above" believers are adopted into God's family, as sons and daughters of God.

Mary is not our "mother" because Mary is not a God, she is not on the same level as God.

Mary is Jesus' earthly mother, period. She is not OUR mother. You can play around with semantics all you want, but it doesn't change the reality.




I don't think it's a small minority. I live in Mexico, and I can see firsthand statues and shrines all over the place of Mary/"Our Lady of Guadalupe." They have parades every year, that are a huge deal. In Mexico city, people crawl for long distances on their knees just to bow down before a painting of Mary.

Like I said, I know you guys don't do that sort of thing, but I think it is the false doctrines and ideas of the Catholic church that inevitably produce that kind of idolatry that I just described.

It seems your misunderstanding comes from not grasping the meaning of Theotokos which is somewhat lost in translation.

What is the meaning of Mary's title: Theotokos?
Theotokos derives from the Greek terms: Theos / 'God'; and tiktein / 'to give birth'. Mary is the Theotokos, the one who gave birth to God. This single word sums up the meaning of Luke's phrase: 'Mother of the Lord' (Lk 1:43) and represents a counterpoint to John's teaching that the 'Word was made flesh' (Jn 1:14). Usually the term is translated into English as 'Mother of God'. However, Greek-speaking Christians also used the equivalent Meter Theiou. The latter form offers a more comprehensive vision of Mary's motherhood in line with a personalist point of view.

The title, Mother of God, seems to have first been used in liturgical and devotional practice by Christians in Egypt. It appears in an ancient prayer, Sub Tuum Praesidium which dates back to the third century. There was some controversy about the use of this title since the pagan goddess, Isis, was referred to as Mother of God. However, there are radical differences between the myths about divine births to pagan goddesses (e.g. Isis, mother of Horus) and the gospel accounts of Jesus' incarnation in Mary. For example, the Gospels portray Jesus as conceived by Mary in Spirit while pagan myths portray the conception of gods in passion and removed from the mysterious destiny of the Incarnation.

Nevertheless, the title, Mother of God, was used in an Alexandrian creedal formula. When challenged in 322, Patriarch Peter of Alexandria defended its legitimacy. Use of the title, Theotokos was formally sanctioned by the Ecumenical Council of Ephesus in 431. The Church declared that both Divine and human natures were united in the person of Jesus, the son of Mary. Hence, Mary may be called Theotokos, since the son she bore according to the flesh, Jesus, is truly one of the Divine persons of the Trinity. This Marian title is really a Christological statement, which affirms that the second person of the Trinity, who was born into history as fully human, is really 'God with us'.

[heavenlyboy34]

Lily, here is an illustration of Moses and Joshua bowing down in front of the Ark. Are they committing idolatry?

Quoting so Lily won't forget to answer or ignore this. ~hugs~

[lilymc]

100% wrong. (Are you one of those people who has so much time on their hands that they can sit around dreaming up ways to troll forums? There is no way a reasoning person can come up with the kind of things you do on these sort of topics. )Dictionaries are your friends:

venerate

[ven-uh-reyt]

• Examples
• Word Origin

verb (used with object), venerated, venerating. 1. to regard or treat with reverence; revere.




worship

[wur-ship]

• Synonyms
• Examples
• Word Origin

noun 1. reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.

2. formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: They attended worship this morning.


3. adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of business success.


4. the object of adoring reverence or regard.

5. (initial capital letter) British. a title of honor used in addressing or mentioning certain magistrates and others of high rank or station (usually preceded by Your, His, or Her).

verb (used with object), worshiped, worshiping or (especially British) worshipped, worshipping. 6. to render religious reverence and homage to.

7. to feel an adoring reverence or regard for (any person or thing).

verb (used without object), worshiped, worshiping or (especially British) worshipped, worshipping. 8. to render religious reverence and homage, as to a deity.

9. to attend services of divine worship.

10. to feel an adoring reverence or regard.

None of that changes the reality that millions of people worldwide DO in fact worship Mary.

Where did those people get the idea that Mary is someone they should bow down to, crawl on their knees for, pray to, etc, etc? Was it the Catholic church? Or are they misinterpreting the teachings of the Catholic church?

Either way, wouldn't you agree that those people need to be reached? Because if they are misled about that, then don't you think they could be misled about other things, that are a matter of life and death, like salvation?

I know that you guys have stated a number of times that you don't agree with that, and that it's unfortunate that people get carried away. But getting to the root of the problem is important, because millions of people are practicing idolatry, worldwide.

Those people matter to God, so they should matter to us.

[TER]

Lily, here is an illustration of Moses and Joshua bowing down in front of the Ark. Are they committing idolatry?

Lily, I think if you answer this question, it may help clear up our misunderstandings of one another.

[lilymc]

Oh but millions of protestants do. Did you see that link I posted above? You believe that the State of Israel was the woman who was crowned based on unbiblical commentary (you admitted it.) I believe its my duty to interrupt a thread with 578+ posts to mention the unrelated protestant obsession with Israel worship.

You are being deceptive. When we say that people worship Mary, it is not simply because of the "Queen of Heaven" interpretation. It is because of ALL of their actions.

Bowing down before statues, praying to her, crawling on their knees just to see a painting of her, and on and on.

So unless you see "protestants" (which I don't even consider myself to be) doing things like that to someone other than God, you are being deceptive and playing with words again.

[RJB]

None of that changes the reality that millions of people worldwide DO in fact worship Mary.

Neither does that change the fact that millions of people worldwide DO in fact worship the state of Israel. You admit that you believe Israel was crowned, and you admit that you received this info from commentary, not the bible. The following from Kevin's favorite website is proof:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False...l_idolatry.htm

[RJB]

You are being deceptive.

No, I'm using the same "logic" you and a few other have used for 500+ posts in this thread alone

Bowing down before statues, praying to her, crawling on their knees just to see a painting of her, and on and on.

What does that have to do with this thread?

[lilymc]

Lily, I think if you answer this question, it may help clear up our misunderstandings of one another.

We already went over that earlier on this thread. The ark was God's earthly throne, and the place where HE said His presence would be when He meets with His people.

So, they were not worshipping the ark, but God.

Is Jesus still inside Mary's womb?

[RJB]

Is Jesus still inside Mary's womb?

Does ANYONE on this thread worship Mary's womb? I don't care about some crackpot video.

[TER]

We already went over that earlier on this thread. The ark was God's earthly throne, and the place where HE said His presence would be when He meets with His people.

So, they were not worshipping the ark, but God.

Is Jesus still inside Mary's womb?

So they worshiped God within the Ark. Let us make sure we have this understanding as we continue.

Does this mean they worship the wood of the Ark? Or the golden statues of Cherubim on top of it? Or how about the stone tablets within it?

No, while they considered this material ark sacred and holy, they worshiped none of it but rather God Who was present in the Ark. They venerated the Ark, but worshiped God.

Likewise, when we bow before the Theotokos (the ark of living flesh, of which the Old Ark prefigured), we do so in love and adoration, but are not worshiping her as a person to be God or put her as a person at the same level as God. Rather, like Moses and Joshua before the Old Ark, the only thing we worship is that which she the living ark contains which makes her holy, which is the Holy Spirit, God of God who abides in her and fills her with grace. Or do you doubt the Holy Spirit of God is in the Mother of God? Perhaps you believe you are more filled with the Spirit than she is?

We love and adore and venerate the Mother of Jesus, and thank her for the works she has done according to the holy will of God. Our worship however is strictly towards the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

It is the Holy Spirit which makes a holy person holy, and it is the Spirit Who works within the man or women which is worshiped. Likewise, when a faithful Orthodox Christian kisses the Chalice holding the Holy Gifts, it is not the metal cup which is worshiped, but the Holy Gifts within it. The Chalice is venerated, but the Body and Blood of Christ is worshiped.

So to answer your questions, Jesus is still in the Virgin Mary because the Holy Spirit abides in her, and where One Person of the Holy Trinity is, so are the Three. And it is the Holy Trinity we worship, whether in an ark with statues on top of it, on a painting, or living inside the chosen saint of God. Not the flesh or the wood or the metal or the person or the icon or the statue, but God Who is present within them. There is only God Who is worshiped, the Holy Trinity. The other vessels which God uses to abide in, work through, and manifest Himself within, we venerate as things made holy by the holy God. But God alone is the One Who is worshiped for He alone is the the Source of all that is made holy.

[lilymc]

So they worshiped God within the Ark. Let us make sure we have this understanding as we continue.

Does this mean they worship the wood of the Ark? Or the golden statues of Cherubim on top of it? Or how about the stone tablets within it?

No, while they considered this material ark sacred and holy, they worshiped none of it but rather God Who was present in the Ark. They venerated the Ark, but worshiped God.

Likewise, when we bow before the Theotokos (the ark of living flesh, of which the Old Ark prefigured), we do so in love and adoration, but are not worshiping her as a person to be God or put her as a person at the same level as God. Rather, like Moses and Joshua before the Old Ark, the only thing we worship is that which she the living ark contains which makes her holy, which is the Holy Spirit, God of God who abides in her and fills her with grace. Or do you doubt the Holy Spirit of God is in the Mother of God? Perhaps you believe you are more filled with the Spirit than she is?

We love and adore and venerate the Mother of Jesus, and thank her for the works she has done according to the holy will of God. Our worship however is strictly towards the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

It is the Holy Spirit which makes a holy person holy, and it is the Spirit Who works within the man or women which is worshiped. Likewise, when a faithful Orthodox Christian kisses the Chalice holding the Holy Gifts, it is not the metal cup which is worshiped, but the Holy Gifts within it. The Chalice is venerated, but the Body and Blood of Christ is worshiped.

I'm really sorry, but none of what you said many any sense to me.

God was not inside a box. The ark was His throne, His presence was there, but they worshiping God, not the ark.

So to answer your questions, Jesus is still in the Virgin Mary because the Holy Spirit abides in her, and where One Person of the Holy Trinity, so are the Three. And it is the Holy Trinity we worship, whether in an ark with statues on top of it, on a painting, or living inside the chosen saint of God. Not the flesh or the wood or the metal or the person or the icon or the statue, but God Who is present within them. There is only God Who is worshiped, the Holy Trinity. The other vessels which God uses to abide in, work through, and manifest Himself in, we venerate as things made holy by the holy God. But God alone is the One Who is worshiped.

All true believers have the Holy Spirit in them. Jesus is in all of us! (who are saved, who are adopted as sons and daughters of God.)

So what you just said really does not make any sense to me.

God wants us to worship Him alone. That is made abundantly clear in the scriptures. This inordinate amount of focus on Mary is not in line with the bible.

[TER]

Do you worship the Holy Spirit?

[RJB]

, but they worshiping God, not the ark..

EXACTLY!!!

It's great to see that we have all come to an agreement

[lilymc]

Do you worship the Holy Spirit?

Yes, of course, but I worship God who is triune, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

What does your question have to do with this discussion about Mary?

You're not saying that because Mary has the Holy Spirit in her, we must worship Mary, are you?

[TER]

Yes, of course, but I worship God who is triune, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

What does your question have to do with this discussion about Mary?

You're not saying that because Mary has the Holy Spirit in her, we must worship Mary, are you?

No, not worship the Virgin Mary, but God abiding in her. Just as God was worshiped and not the Ark.

[lilymc]

EXACTLY!!!

It's great to see that we have all come to an agreement

Are you claiming that those millions of people around the world who are practically obsessed with Mary aren't actually worshipping her, but they're worshipping God?

[Ronin Truth]

13, technically. The last one hanged himself.

13! How many are in a coven?

[RJB]

Are you claiming that those millions of people around the world who are practically obsessed with Mary aren't actually worshipping her, but they're worshipping God?

Where do you get "millions?"

Speaking of obsessions...

[RJB]

13! How many are in a coven?

Here we go on another unrelated tangent

[TER]

Are you claiming that those millions of people around the world who are practically obsessed with Mary aren't actually worshipping her, but they're worshipping God?

Lily, there are many people around the world, especially in the West, who basically worship and idolize the Bible, confusing the written word of God to be the very Word of God (Who is Christ alone). There will be those who go to extremes. The numbers you are using I think are inaccurate and over exaggerated. The vast majority of pious Catholics and Orthodox understand the proper place and veneration of the Mother of God. Your Christian friends here are explaining to you what the correct way to regard the Virgin Mary is, and that does NOT include worshiping her.