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Thread: Mary the Queen of Heaven

  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    I agree and I wish to thank those who have posted and those who haven't, allowing this to develop into a fruitful discussion about the wonders God has done.

    Lilly is out doing work, but I look forward to hearing from her soon.

    In the meanwhile, I remind everyone the point of the OP, and reiterate something written from there:

    The Ark of the Covenant had some impressive contents:

    • Moses’ two stone tablets of the Ten Commandments
    • A jar of manna from the wilderness
    • Aaron’s staff which had budded with life

    Mary herself being the new Ark of the Covenant, she contained the fulfillment of all these things:
    • Instead of God’s Word written in stone,
      Mary’s womb contained the Word made flesh
    • Instead of manna from the wilderness,
      Mary’s womb contained the Manna from Heaven and Bread of Life
    • Instead of a staff from the first Levitical high priest, Mary’s womb contained the great High Priest himself, Jesus Christ, whose priesthood is after the order of Melchizedek
    • Instead of a budded staff symbolizing resurrection, Mary’s womb contained the Resurrection and the Life himself.
    Amen! Very nice thread TER!



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  3. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    My friend, Joshua was correct in what he said and God was right to be angry, because the person they burned incense to was NOT the Queen of Heaven. For there is only ONE Queen of Heaven, and she is the Holy Theotokos. So in time it was proper for God to reveal this. The Virgin Mary is what the ancient Babylonians (and many other religions) awaited and anticipated and prayer for. The same for Israel. She is the fulfillment of the Ark of the Covenant which was a prefiguring of her and the Burning Bush which contained the Divine Word and was not consumed. Hers is the very living flesh of Christ, the Flesh which has redeemed our own flesh and restored us, for God first gave it to her and in perfect obedience, she offered it freely back to Him. This is fundamental eucharistic love (thanksgiving) which underlies the entire message of Jesus Christ.

    Those ancient types found in basically every religion, they all find their fullness within the Christian faith, for there is One God and One Savior and through Him our kind and this creation finds salvation. But in man's yearning for truth, there will be prototypes and symbols along the way. This is only natural, after all there is so much we do not know, so limited is the human brain, that we see through a glass darkly as the Apostle said. How much more was this the case before the Light of God had entered into the world and revealed our Father in Heaven? The images and types of Christ and our salvation is found in degree in every human yearning for divinity and eternal life.

    Do not let the similarities between Christianity and more ancient faiths be a cause for worry and concern. Rather, it should only more strongly show He indeed is the God of all
    .
    Indeed! Dr Damick's book "Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy" demonstrates clearly commonalities between the orthodox faith and many others. The same could be done with any other religion or denomination. The Quakers' worship style (from what I've seen) somewhat reminds me of prostrations and other such gestures that are done in a divine liturgy, for example.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  4. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    It has been a while since I watched this, but I think this is an interesting documentary.

    This is important because even if nobody here does this, the fact is that millions of people around the world DO engage in idolatry, especially Marian worship. This is not just a harmless thing.... there is a deceptive spirit behind it.

    This is long but worth watching...

    I agree Lily that there are some who do engage in Mariology and the worship of her, but there are many Catholics that know the difference and do not do this. Remember that there are many very charismatic Catholics out there doing the work of God in a very big way and are most certainly our spiritual brethren in Christ--even though they pray to Mary and the departed saints. This is what I meant when I told you that we should never toss the baby out with the bathwater.

    Remember what Paul said in Romans 14:4--God knows the hearts and intentions of His children and only He is able to make them stand even if they err judgment because only God knows their hearts and their love for Him while we do not. I think in your journey, you will eventually learn this and not be so rigid in your opinions of the brethren that hold to practices and traditions that you do not.

    You are living your convictions and doing what you believe God has called you to do. I've read some of your wonderful blog and seen that you've had the benefit of sharing the witness of Christ around the world as well. It's a beautiful thing that you've been blessed with and that you are able to do this.

    At the end of the day--every one of us has to account to our Lord and only He knows our hearts and is most able to make us stand knowing that what we do--we do in love and worship to Him. Where mankind will impose their own standards and judgments upon the children of the Lord--He is able to make them stand, just as St. Paul told us here.

    Do Not Judge Your Brother


    (Matthew 7:1-6; Luke 6:37-42)


    1Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. 2For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

    5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 9For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

    10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

  5. #184
    It is human nature to not want to be wrong. It is human nature to fear.

    We have all developed our own religion, whether we believe in God or not. We have elevated some things which cannot be questioned, even though we may be wrong.

    Change often times brings on anxiety and is uncomfortable, but one thing we cannot change is the fact that every day we are changing. Our bodies are changing, our minds are changing, and our relationships are changing. Every day our religion is changing too. God alone is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

    As such dynamic beings, our lives are full of changing priorities and things we love and attach to, sometimes even falling dangerously close to idolizing. When this done apart from God and His holy will, and becomes habitual, it leads us farther and farther from God and closer and closer to perdition.

    But it is not the sign of the Christian man to fall. That is expected. It is the sign of the Christian man to get up. Even from death.

    We are all learning as go and we should do this with open minds and open hearts, understanding that there are things we may not have known. There are other things we may have been taught and instilled into our minds and made foundation stones of which we have built entire ways of thinking and living, which are in fact wrong. Because of that our thoughts, our convictions and our very religion may need some readjustment.

    Our best recourse is to hold back our quick judgements, have more faith in people (for God has worked through many), look into history and read the writings of the saints to understand why there are certain traditions and beliefs, the same way an anthropologist will go back and study any group of people. Then greater understandings can be made to make a better judgment. Of course, there are things which cannot easily be explained, and these are the mysteries of the Church which can only be experienced. But that is a topic for another thread. For now, it is the humble and Christian way to accept there are things we do not know, things we are wrong about, and things we need to study more on. In diligence, meekness, and above all prayer (which needs as a prerequisite love, for where there is no love, there is no prayer), the truths are made clearer and divisions are healed and the Kingdom of Heaven comes closer.
    Last edited by TER; 08-19-2014 at 06:34 PM.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ



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  7. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    I agree Lily that there are some who do engage in Mariology and the worship of her, but there are many Catholics that know the difference and do not do this. Remember that there are many very charismatic Catholics out there doing the work of God in a very big way and are most certainly our spiritual brethren in Christ--even though they pray to Mary and the departed saints. This is what I meant when I told you that we should never toss the baby out with the bathwater.

    Remember what Paul said in Romans 14:4--God knows the hearts and intentions of His children and only He is able to make them stand even if they err judgment because only God knows their hearts and their love for Him while we do not. I think in your journey, you will eventually learn this and not be so rigid in your opinions of the brethren that hold to practices and traditions that you do not.

    You are living your convictions and doing what you believe God has called you to do. I've read some of your wonderful blog and seen that you've had the benefit of sharing the witness of Christ around the world as well. It's a beautiful thing that you've been blessed with and that you are able to do this.

    At the end of the day--every one of us has to account to our Lord and only He knows our hearts and is most able to make us stand knowing that what we do--we do in love and worship to Him. Where mankind will impose their own standards and judgments upon the children of the Lord--He is able to make them stand, just as St. Paul told us here.

    Do Not Judge Your Brother


    (Matthew 7:1-6; Luke 6:37-42)


    1Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. 2For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

    5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 9For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

    10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
    Thank you for sharing your thoughts Terry, but this is not about judging people. I believe that those people have good intentions, my guess is that most of them truly believe that they are doing the right thing, and that the apparitions they're seeing are Godly.

    It's about bringing up the fact that many people are being deceived. The heart behind this is not about condemnation, but of concern and a genuine desire to raise awareness and remind people to be vigilant and to test the spirits.

    I absolutely believe that God wants us to speak the truth (in love) and not stand by and say nothing when millions of people are being deceived, or (unknowingly) engaging in idolatry. If I were to say nothing, I think that would be just as bad as those who don't share the Gospel at all, with atheists, skeptics or non-Christians.

    Did you even watch the documentary? Please watch it. It's super interesting. It's not just a collection of photos or video clips of people worshipping Mary. It's an in-depth look at something that is going on world-wide, something very real, but not from God. If you just watch it, you'll see what I mean.
    Last edited by lilymc; 08-19-2014 at 06:45 PM.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  8. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    Thank you for sharing your thoughts Terry, but this is not about judging people. I believe that those people have good intentions, my guess is that most of them truly believe that they are doing the right thing, and that the apparitions they're seeing are Godly.

    It's about bringing up the fact that many people are being deceived. The heart behind this is not about condemnation, but of concern and a genuine desire to raise awareness and remind people to be vigilant and to test the spirits.

    I absolutely believe that God wants us to speak the truth (in love) and not stand by and say nothing when millions of people are being deceived, or (unknowingly) engaging in idolatry. If I were to say nothing, I think that would be just as bad as those who don't share the Gospel at all, with atheists, skeptics or non-Christians.

    Did you even watch the documentary? Please watch it. It's super interesting. It's not just a collection of photos or video clips of people worshipping Mary. It's an in-depth look at something that is going on world-wide, something very real, but not from God. If you just watch it, you'll see what I mean.
    Yes, we understand that there are deceptions and people are falling into idolatry. This happens with everything. Even with piece of papers with numbers on them. It is not unexpected that some would go to the extreme and worship Mary. Many worship that which they ought not to. If this is true for piece of paper or drugs, how much more so for the Mother of God?

    That there are incorrect ways however does not mean that there is not a correct way. In fact the Church has revealed that there is indeed a correct way and beneficial way, and this is the way which is being presented to you. It is not error to honor the Virgin Mary and to pray for her to intercede to her Son on our behalf. It is error to worship her as God. I accept that you are trying to expose errors. I am too. If we can agree that Mary idolatry is wrong, can we agree that it is right and worthy and indeed Christ-pleasing to glorify her and magnify her as the greatest saint and Mother of God? What exactly is your objection to this? That a few might fall into idolatry? Then should we ban money as well or whatever else causes some to stumble?
    Last edited by TER; 08-19-2014 at 06:57 PM.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  9. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    Yes, we understand that there are deceptions and people are falling into idolatry. This happens with everything. Even with piece of papers with numbers on them. It is not unexpected that some would go to the extreme and worship Mary. Many worship that which they ought not to. If this is true for piece of paper or drugs, how much more so for the Mother of God?

    That there are incorrect ways however does not mean that there is not a correct way. In fact the Church has revealed that there is indeed a correct way and beneficial way, and this is the way which is being presented to you. It is not error to honor the Virgin Mary and to pray for her to intercede to her Son on our behalf. It is error to worship her as God. I accept that you are trying to expose errors. I am too. If we can agree that Mary idolatry is wrong, can we agree that it is right and worthy and indeed Christ-pleasing to glorify her and magnify her as the greatest saint and Mother of God? What exactly is your objection to this? That a few might fall into idolatry? Then should we ban money as well or whatever else causes some to stumble?
    This^^ Lily, by your reasoning printed bibles should not be used because many Reformers use it to justify the solas (such as sola scriptura)-which can be considered idolatrous if you use the same standard you are using to judge veneration of the Theotokos.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  10. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post

    Our best recourse is to hold back our quick judgements, have more faith in people (for God has worked through many),
    I have made no judgments. And I have countered the likes of Sola and Nang for doing the same thing,, for condemning people.
    I inform. I condemn certain error in doctrine when I see such,, but I do not condemn people.

    I have posted scripture.. and you question my interpretation. Even when it is a clear and simple command from God.

    You interpret a whole lot and post about scriptures that have nothing to do with with the subject,, except by broad interpretation.

    And you wish to question my interpretation?
    You are free to do as you wish. I posted the words of God,, on the subject.

    Your argument is not with me.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  11. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    Yes, we understand that there are deceptions and people are falling into idolatry. This happens with everything. Even piece of papers with numbers on them. It is not unexpected that some would go to the extreme and worship that which they ought not. That should not however erase the fact that there is indeed a correct way and beneficial way, and this is the way which is being presented to you. It is not error to honor the Virgin Mary and to pray for her to intercede to her Son on our behalf. It is error to worship her. I accept that you are trying to expose errors. I am too. If we can agree that Mary idolatry is wrong, can we agree that it is right and worthy and indeed Christ-pleasing to glorify her and magnify her as the greatest saint and Mother of God?
    These 2 verses sum up how I feel about this.


    As he said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!”

    But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

    Luke 11:27-28


    It's almost as if Jesus knew this would be an issue in the future - people elevating Mary to an almost God-like status, taking their focus off what is important. He could have just as easily said, "Yes, let us honor the Blessed Mary!" But instead He clearly corrected her, guiding her back to God.

    And here is another verse that I think has more than one meaning....


    His mother said to the servants, "Whatever He says to you, do it."

    John 2:5


    And I see now where you were going with those questions you were asking me earlier... Your point was that Mary is the new ark of the covenant?

    I'm sorry, but I can't even say what I really think about that, because I don't want to be impolite. It's simply wrong. And unnecessary, and yet another false doctrine that takes the attention off of God, and puts it onto other things.

    Btw, I just want to add that this doesn't mean that I don't think Mary is blessed. Of course she is. All true believers are!

    So I'm not saying that it's wrong to honor Mary. I just don't agree with all these unbiblical and extra things like Mary being the "new ark of the covenant" or the "Queen of Heaven" or someone we can pray to, or someone who appears in those apparitions, etc.
    Last edited by lilymc; 08-19-2014 at 07:35 PM.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  12. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    I have made no judgments. And I have countered the likes of Sola and Nang for doing the same thing,, for condemning people.
    I inform. I condemn certain error in doctrine when I see such,, but I do not condemn people.

    I have posted scripture.. and you question my interpretation. Even when it is a clear and simply command from God.

    You interpret a whole lot and post about scriptures that have nothing to do with with the subject,, except by broad interpretation.

    And you wish to question my interpretation.
    You are free to do as you wish. I posted the words of God,, on the subject.

    Your argument is not with me.
    I am glad you are back Peter. I was hoping you might answer the question which amazingly seems hard for some Christians to affirm. Was God present in the womb of the Virgin Mary?
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  13. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    This^^ Lily, by your reasoning printed bibles should not be used because many Reformers use it to justify the solas
    Most of the reformers have been attempting that,, to reform the church,, Not to break off from it.. They were pushed out.
    And their followers did not always have their same inspiration..


    I don't follow the "reformers".. The error was entrenched long before the reformers.
    They were working with a broken thing to start with. Not dead,, but seriously broken.

    Having the Lost books restored would have been a serious reform. Among others.

    Even from the abridged version of the Bible we have left to us,, there is enough for salvation.
    And for growth.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  14. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    These 2 verses sum up how I feel about this.

    As he said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!”

    But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

    Luke 11:27-28


    It's almost as if Jesus knew this would be an issue in the future - people elevating Mary to an almost God-like status, taking their focus off what is important. He could have just as easily said, "Yes, let us honor the Blessed Mary!" But instead He clearly corrected her, guiding her back to God.

    And here is another verse that I think has more than one meaning....

    His mother said to the servants, "Whatever He says to you, do it."

    John 2:5


    And I see now where you were going with those questions you were asking me earlier... Your point was that Mary is the new ark of the covenant?

    I'm sorry, but I can't even say what I really think about that, because I don't want to be impolite. It's simply wrong. And unnecessary, and yet another false doctrine that takes the attention off of God, and puts it onto other things
    .
    Incorrect. Just as we see Matthew portraying Yeshua as the new Moses, Mary is the new Ark because of her place in history and how she fits into Jewish thought/prophecy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12



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  16. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Most of the reformers have been attempting that,, to reform the church,, Not to break off from it.. They were pushed out.
    And their followers did not always have their same inspiration..


    I don't follow the "reformers".. The error was entrenched long before the reformers.
    They were working with a broken thing to start with. Not dead,, but seriously broken.

    Having the Lost books restored would have been a serious reform. Among others.

    Even from the abridged version of the Bible we have left to us,, there is enough for salvation.
    And for growth.
    Those books were never "lost". They are apocryphal. Unless you mean relative to most Western denominations-then yes, you could call them "lost".
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  17. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    I am glad you are back Peter. I was hoping you might answer the question which amazingly seems hard for some Christians to affirm. Was God present in the womb of the Virgin Mary?
    Yes,,and he left her when He was born into the world. (a reading of Enoch would so that to be a known thing)(Jesus is also Captain of the Angels)

    I am sure that Mary,, as a believer, (I am sure she believed) was filled with the Holy spirit along with everyone else present at Pentecost.
    And so has it been since.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  18. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    These 2 verses sum up how I feel about this.


    As he said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!”

    But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

    Luke 11:27-28
    Your mistranslation and misinterpretation of this verse is part of the reason why you are incorrect and in fact only strengthens my case. You must have missed the post earlier in this thread which explained this.

    First of all, the correct translation from the Greek is 'Even more so, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!'

    This does not diminish his mother, this simply demonstrates that even more blessed then a womb or breasts is those people who hear the word of God and keep it. The Virgin Mary, whose whole life is in complete and total obedience to God (so much so that she was worthy in time to be a vessel for Him and give birth to Him), is not only amongst those blessed, but more reason to understand why she is most blessed. For having given not only a womb and milk and love, she gave humble obedience.

    It's almost as if Jesus knew this would be an issue in the future - people elevating Mary to an almost God-like status, taking their focus off what is important. He could have just as easily said, "Yes, let us honor the Blessed Mary!" But instead He clearly corrected her, guiding her back to God.
    The person in the crowd was wrong because she said 'blessed is the womb' as if it was the womb that willed anything. And she was wrong that she said 'blessed is the breasts', as if dumb organs of fat, skin, and milk producing tissues is what obeyed Him. Had she said 'Blessed is your mother', He would have said, 'Blessed is not only her who has done my will and the will of the Father in Heaven, but all who listen to me and obey me!'

    And here is another verse that I think has more than one meaning....


    His mother said to the servants, "Whatever He says to you, do it."

    John 2:5
    It is funny that you bring this verse, because the entire chapter only more clearly demonstrates how much love and honor Christ has for His mother.

    On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. Now both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding. And when they ran out of wine, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.”

    Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come.

    His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.”

    And what did the Christ next do? He fulfilled the wish for His mother even though His hour had not yet come. Why, because the same God Who said 'Honor your father and mother' is the same God Who obeyed her out of love.

    So you see, the verses you keep picking, when seen through the entire Bible, the entire witness and traditions and lens of the Church, gives the correct interpretation.

    And I see now where you were going with those questions you were asking me earlier... Your point was that Mary is the new ark of the covenant?

    I'm sorry, but I can't even say what I really think about that, because I don't want to be impolite. It's simply wrong. And unnecessary, and yet another false doctrine that takes the attention off of God, and puts it onto other things.
    Because you say it is wrong does not make it so. The Church and the countless saints and martyrs would disagree with you and your innovative interpretation. This is not to be impolite, this is to be direct since you like direct and to the point. Your problem is not with me or my interpretation, your problem is with 2000 years of saints.
    Last edited by TER; 08-19-2014 at 07:42 PM.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  19. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Those books were never "lost". They are apocryphal. Unless you mean relative to most Western denominations-then yes, you could call them "lost".
    You are referring to those removed by the reformers.
    I was referring to those banned (and burned) by the Counsel of Laodicea .
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  20. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Yes,,and he left her when He was born into the world. (a reading of Enoch would so that to be a known thing)(Jesus is also Captain of the Angels)

    I am sure that Mary,, as a believer, (I am sure she believed) was filled with the Holy spirit along with everyone else present at Pentecost.
    And so has it been since.
    Very good! And is the Holy Spirit God of God? Do you affirm the Holy Trinity? Are the Father, Son and Holy Spirit equal in honor, worship and glory?
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  21. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    You are referring to those removed by the reformers.
    I was referring to those banned (and burned) by the Counsel of Laodicea .
    The Council of Laodicea did not dictate the final canon or that other books were not helpful. It was a local Church doing what they could to protect their flock at a time when people were falling away on account of false and heretical teachings. So it presented a canon of what was known to be beneficial even to those who were immature in the faith. It was for pastoral reasons, as imperfect as it was. And even that a canon now has been formally expressed does not mean that the other books left out do not have value and purpose. But that only through the Church which is the pillar and foundation of truth can the correct understanding be known.
    Last edited by TER; 08-19-2014 at 07:54 PM.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  22. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    The Council of Laodicea did not dictate the final canon or that other books were not helpful. It was a local Church doing what they could to protect their flock at a time when people were falling away on account of false and heretical teachings.
    No it wasn't.. It was political church,, getting rid of some enemies. And creating a centrally controlled organization.
    A world church. Though I think the beginnings of that were well before,, but, that is where it was codified.

    it is the error of Nimrod all over again.

    And just for a point of fact,, There are seven churches. There are seven Angels that are over the Seven Churches.

    The One World Church is an error as old as,, and exactly like Nimrod.. The rule of men.

    And there is one church ,, but it is made from all believers of all time,, All Seven Churches.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  23. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    No it wasn't.. It was political church,, getting rid of some enemies. And creating a centrally controlled organization.
    Did you know that bishops have no authority over any other bishops? Forget about the Roman Catholic errors you grew up with. There is no Supreme Leader of the Church apart from Christ. The Church is a centrally controlled organization only in that it's head is Christ and is controlled by the Holy Spirit, and not any man.

    The Patriarch of Antioch for example has never had authority over the people of Jerusalem or what the Patriarch of Jerusalem did there or taught. Neither did the Patriarch of Rome have any authority over the people of Alexandria or Constantinople or any other see or their Bishops. So your ideas of centrally controlled organization is way off. What kept them central was the common faith and the common Eucharist. If they could be called anything, it would be a republic or federation, and one which has lasted unbroken for 2000 years.

    And the fact that members of the Church entered into political life is not a surprise, it is the natural circumstance when the persecutions were lifted and people began to come out of hiding and were able to freely express and live out their faith.

    The Church is a dynamic organization which contends in this world and lives in the world, even as she prays and anticipates for the next one. Of course people who were baptized entered into politics. Why? For the same reasons they do today! Some out of service for others or to make their nation a better place. Others for purely selfish and evil reasons, who have scandalized the Church because of their sins. No one is claiming that no sins have been done by those in the Church. After all, it is a Church of sinners, so that is to be expected. There have been times of peace and prosperity when good and virtuous Christian men have been political leaders, and there have been horrible times of injustice and evil from other men who have called themselves Christians. Do not judge the good of the Church by the bad sins of the members of the Church, even though the bad is much more memorable on account of the hypocrisy.

    A world church. Though I think the beginnings of that were well before,, but, that is where it was codified.

    it is the error of Nimrod all over again.
    That there is one Church, as there is one Jesus Christ, is biblical and apostolic teachings. This one Church, having spread around the world is indeed a world Church. This is not the error of Nimrod, this is the glory of God.

    And just for a point of fact,, There are seven churches. There are seven Angels that are over the Seven Churches.

    The One World Church is an error as old as,, and exactly like Nimrod.. The rule of men.

    And there is one church ,, but it is made from all believers of all time,, All Seven Churches.
    Can you please provide patristic support for this interpretation? I am not familiar with it. Can you point to where it is said that the Orthodox Church is an error like Nimrod's?
    Last edited by TER; 08-19-2014 at 08:40 PM.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ



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  25. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    No it wasn't.. It was political church,, getting rid of some enemies. And creating a centrally controlled organization.
    A world church. Though I think the beginnings of that were well before,, but, that is where it was codified.
    All Churches and churches are political. Jesus is the King of all as well as head of the Church. God Establishing his presence on Earth through His son made the politics unavoidable. Yeshua's trial and crucifixion were HIGHLY political. The Jewish political and banking classes faced a great threat, philosophical and religious, in Jesus. The jews expected the Messiah to be a new David to rule and lead them-not someone who would die such a horrible death.

    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    And just for a point of fact,, There are seven churches. There are seven Angels that are over the Seven Churches.

    The One World Church is an error as old as,, and exactly like Nimrod.. The rule of men.

    And there is one church ,, but it is made from all believers of all time,, All Seven Churches.
    There is one Church. It is one, holy, catholic("universal", not post-schism Roman), and apostolic. The reason there are a variety of "types" of Orthodox parishes (Russian, Greek, etc) are for a number of reasons practical and historical. I don't have time to list them all ATM.

    Though all believers are part of the Body Of Christ, the heterodox are not part of Christ's Church established by Him through the apostles.
    Last edited by heavenlyboy34; 08-19-2014 at 08:24 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  26. #202
    By the way friend, I was hoping you might answer these questions first:

    And is the Holy Spirit God of God? Do you affirm the Holy Trinity? Are the Father, Son and Holy Spirit equal in honor, worship and glory?
    Last edited by TER; 08-19-2014 at 08:32 PM.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  27. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    Did you know that bishops have no authority over any other bishops? Forget about the Roman Catholic errors you grew up with. There is no Supreme Leader of the Church apart from Christ. The Church is a centrally controlled organization only in that it's head is Christ and is controlled by the Holy Spirit, and not any man.

    The Patriarch of Antioch for example has never had authority over the people of Jerusalem or what the Patriarch of Jerusalem did there or taught. Neither did the Patriarch of Rome have any authority over the people of Alexandria or Constantinople or any other see or their Bishops. So your ideas of centrally controlled organization is way off. What kept them central was the common faith and the common Eucharist.

    And the fact that members of the Church entered into political like is not a surprise, it is the natural circumstance when the persecutions were lifted and people began to come out of hiding and were able to freely express their faith.

    The Church is a dynamic organization which contends in this world and lives in the world, even as they pray for the next one. Of course people who were faithful entered into politics. Why? For the same reasons they do today! Some out of service for others or to make the nation a better place. Others for purely selfish and evil reasons, who have scandalized the Church because of their sins. No one is claiming the Church no sins have not been done by those is the Church. After all, it is a Church of sinners, so that is to be expected. There have been times of peace and prosperity when good and virtuous Christian men have been political leaders, and there have been horrible times of injustice and evil from other men who have called themselves Christians. Do not judge the good of the Church by the bad sins of the members of the Church, even though the bad is much more memorable on account of the hypocrisy.

    [quote}A world church. Though I think the beginnings of that were well before,, but, that is where it was codified.

    it is the error of Nimrod all over again.
    That there is one Church, as there is one Jesus Christ, is biblical and apostolic teachings. This one Church, having spread around the world is indeed a world Church. This is not the error of Nimrod, this is the glory of God.



    Can you please provide patristic support for this interpretation? I am not familiar with it. Can you point to where it is said that the Orthodox Church is an error like Nimrod's?[/QUOTE]
    An excellent post^^
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  28. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    By the way friend, I was hoping you might answer these questions first:
    Yes,,
    though "the trinity" is not mentioned in scripture,, the concept is.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  29. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Yes,,
    though "the trinity" is not mentioned in scripture,, the concept is.
    Knowing that the Holy Spirit is God just as the Father is God and the Son is God, of one essense, will, and power, when the day of Pentecost arrived and the Holy Spirit descended upon the Apostles and the Virgin who was present, was God abiding in them?
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  30. #206
    "Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things. "As for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.
    Scripture says Seven. And each has an Angel over it.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  31. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    Knowing that the Holy Spirit is God just as the Father is God and the Son is God, of one essense, will, and power, when the day of Pentecost arrived and the Holy Spirit descended upon the Apostles and the Virgin who was present, was God abiding in them?
    Yes . but this is not at all strange.

    God breathed the breath of life into man.

    Angels has procreated with Daughters of Man

    Demons poses men. These are all known.

    Yes, scripture teaches that the Spirit of God resides within us who believe.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  32. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    I believe that the Holy Spirit enters into those who believe. That we are the vessels.

    Not some lifeless work of our hands.






    God Said Don't do it.

    And again I ask you to check yourself,, because the teaching of man says do,, what God has said is DO NOT.

    Very simple. No interpretations necessary.
    Amen!
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.



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  34. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Yes . but this is not at all strange.
    Not strange at all my friend. My point is that the chasm has been crossed and Christ is the bridge. Creation now has a real and living relationship with the divine. For this reason St. Peter's handkerchief healed the sick and raised the dead. It was the Holy Spirit working in the world performing these wonders, not the mere cloth and fabric. And even before Christ was born, the Holy Spirit was active in the world. For we read about the bones of Elisha having raised the dead. It was not the mere dried bones but the Holy Spirit of God acting through it which raised the dead. The same for Moses' staff. The list goes on and on.

    And that is why Aaron's staff was venerated and placed in the Ark. That is why Manna was placed there as well and the Two Tablets of stone which God wrote His Commandments. For these are not just mere wood and stone, these have been conduits and vessels of the Holy Spirit of God, worthy to be placed in the very Holy of Holies and before the presence of God.

    If these things happened before the Light of the World came and before the Holy Spirit descended down en masse into the world, how much more so is it true now!! How many more wonders can be possible now that Pentecost has arrived! And indeed, countless are the miracles which have occurred within the life of the Church whether through inanimate or animate objects. Countless are the demonstrations of God in the Holy Spirit working within the world! The lives of the saints are inexhaustive. The writings of the Fathers and the history of the Church are resplendent. And what has always been understood, what has always been proclaimed is that it is not the object or vessel in itself which is what is holy, but the Holy Spirit working in it or through it which is so and makes it holy. These objects are venerated, such as were the contents of the Ark, but it is God alone Who is worshiped. Thus Joshua could bow down before the Ark of the Covenant and be worshiping God in truth even as His very presence was contained in it. Likewise we venerate the icon because of who it is representing, but it is not the wood or the paint that is worshiped, but God and the Holy Spirit working within it.

    God breathed the breath of life into man.

    Angels has procreated with Daughters of Man

    Demons poses men. These are all known.

    Yes, scripture teaches that the Spirit of God resides within us who believe.
    What good news! Indeed, THE good news! For God loved us so much that He has come down to save us since we could not do it ourselves having fallen under the rule of death and the power of satan. God came so that we too might have Him in us, so that we might be restored into the original blessedness for which we were created! We become by grace what Christ is by nature, that is a divine-human person, and sons and daughters of the Most High God in the image and likeness of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Conformed into His image, partaking of His divine nature, having the very Spirit of God within us, we too can rise in glory and ascend like Christ, from glory to glory as the Apostle proclaims as adopted co-heirs of the Kingdom of Heaven. This is the good news! God has not forgotten us! Our Father has not abandoned us! And by His love He has saved us and leads us to eternal life!

    This has been made possible because God the Holy Spirit has come down, fulfilling the prophecy of Joel:


    “ And it shall come to pass afterward
    That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
    Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
    Your old men shall dream dreams,
    Your young men shall see visions.
    And also on My menservants and on My maidservants
    I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

    This is the post Pentecostal life of the Church, whereby the world has experienced the coming down of God and where the members of the Church have become God-bearing vessels of the uncontainable God Himself. It is the reversal of Babel, for this reason we see the Apostles speaking and all the hearers of every language understanding it in their native tongues. It is the culmination of all the work of Christ in His ministry in offering us a new life reborn in the Spirit.

    The saints have 'put on Christ' (Romans 13:14) and been empowered and transformed into the 'fullness and stature of Christ' (Ephesians 4:13) because the Holy Spirit is present within them. Whereby the Ark was once the meeting place for God and a sanctuary whereby He would dwell amongst men, in time this became fulfilled by the Holy Theotokos who is the living Ark of the Covenant, the New Covenant. For this New Covenant is based on the flesh of her own flesh, the Lord Jesus Christ, and through her obedience and willful offering has brought our humanity even greater glory by the power of God. For she became the meeting place whereby God would dwell in the world, having carried God within her for 9 months. She became the living Tabernacle, containing within her flesh the very infinite Creator of all. She became the Holy of Holies, enhousing within her womb the Most Holy and Almighty God. She became the Mother of God because God had chosen her to be so, for none had ever lived more perfect as her until the birth of her own Son and God.

    But alas, this is not the only glory of God, but points to a deeper and more wondrous revelation. For Christ, taking upon Himself created substance through His incarnation and allowing the Holy Spirit to come down and fill all things, all people can share in this divine glory. His cosmic work on the Cross has made all of creation potential partakers of the divine nature. Thus God has made holy not only an Ark, or the Virgin, but all those who have been graced by the Holy Spirit of God.
    Last edited by TER; 08-19-2014 at 10:01 PM.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  35. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    Your mistranslation and misinterpretation of this verse is part of the reason why you are incorrect and in fact only strengthens my case. You must have missed the post earlier in this thread which explained this.

    First of all, the correct translation from the Greek is 'Even more so, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!'

    This does not diminish his mother, this simply demonstrates that even more blessed then a womb or breasts is those people who hear the word of God and keep it. The Virgin Mary, whose whole life is in complete and total obedience to God (so much so that she was worthy in time to be a vessel for Him and give birth to Him), is not only amongst those blessed, but more reason to understand why she is most blessed. For having given not only a womb and milk and love, she gave humble obedience.
    You're barking up the wrong tree, because I never argued that Mary was not blessed, in fact I made a point to state that she indeed was, at the end of post #189.

    And I never said that she was diminished in that verse. I said that it was as if Jesus knew this issue of people focusing on Mary would be a problem, by taking that opportunity to teach the woman who said that (and by doing so, everyone) what was more important.

    The person in the crowd was wrong because she said 'blessed is the womb' as if it was the womb that willed anything. And she was wrong that she said 'blessed is the breasts', as if dumb organs of fat, skin, and milk producing tissues is what obeyed Him. Had she said 'Blessed is your mother', He would have said, 'Blessed is not only her who has done my will and the will of the Father in Heaven, but all who listen to me and obey me!'
    It sounds to me like you're trying to rationalize things with this verse. The woman used the words womb and breasts, but her adoration was not for fleshly organs, but for MARY. That is why Jesus replied the way He did.

    If what you are saying is true, then He could have replied with, "No, it's not her organs that are blessed, but SHE is blessed."

    But that's not what He said. He specifically made a point to lead her back to God in His reply, by stating that it is more blessed to hear the word of God and obey it.


    It is funny that you bring this verse, because the entire chapter only more clearly demonstrates how much love and honor Christ has for His mother.

    On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. Now both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding. And when they ran out of wine, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.”

    Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come.

    His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.”

    And what did the Christ next do? He fulfilled the wish for His mother even though His hour had not yet come. Why, because the same God Who said 'Honor your father and mother' is the same God Who obeyed her out of love.

    So you see, the verses you keep picking, when seen through the entire Bible, the entire witness and traditions and lens of the Church, gives the correct interpretation.
    Once again, you're arguing something I never stated. Of course Jesus demonstrated love and honor to His mother. Jesus is sinless and wouldn't go against His own word... Of course it is right to honor our parents.

    I posted that verse because I think it has a sort of second meaning, it's not merely about the wedding in Cana, but a reminder for ALL people who might take their focus off of God, to - as Mary put it - "Whatever He says to you, do it."

    Because you say it is wrong does not make it so. The Church and the countless saints and martyrs would disagree with you and your innovative interpretation. This is not to be impolite, this is to be direct since you like direct and to the point. Your problem is not with me or my interpretation, your problem is with 2000 years of saints.

    Which one are you talking about? I mentioned 3 or 4 things. If you can back those doctrines up biblically - not based only on one verse, and certainly not based only on the words of fallible men just because they were associated with a church... then please do so.

    Where does the bible say that Mary is the new ark of the covenant? And where does the bible say that Mary is the Queen of Heaven? The only references to "Queen of Heaven" that I have seen in the bible are spoken about in a negative sense, in Jeremiah. And where does the bible say that we should pray to Mary?

    I don't mean to put you on the spot... but you're the one who keeps insisting these things, and then telling others we are wrong.

    It has to be based FIRST on the scriptures.... not on what some 7th century priests or church officials said. I'm interested in what the scriptures say, and if you could please post specific verses with the chapter and verse number, that would be helpful.
    Last edited by lilymc; 08-19-2014 at 09:55 PM.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

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