Mary the Queen of Heaven

[heavenlyboy34]

None of that changes the reality that millions of people worldwide DO in fact worship Mary.

I didn't claim otherwise. As I've said, those people are in error.

Where did those people get the idea that Mary is someone they should bow down to, crawl on their knees for, pray to, etc, etc? Was it the Catholic church? Or are they misinterpreting the teachings of the Catholic church?

You'd have to ask them. People come to believe these sort of things for a lot of different reasons.

Either way, wouldn't you agree that those people need to be reached? Because if they are misled about that, then don't you think they could be misled about other things, that are a matter of life and death, like salvation?

Certainly. I've said many times that those people are in error and need correction.

I know that you guys have stated a number of times that you don't agree with that, and that it's unfortunate that people get carried away. But getting to the root of the problem is important, because millions of people are practicing idolatry, worldwide.

Very unfortunate, indeed. Missionaries do their best WRT this, but they have the same limits of time and resources as anyone else.

Those people matter to God, so they should matter to us.

Indeed. ~hugs~

[lilymc]

No, not worship the Virgin Mary, but God abiding in her. Just as God was worshiped and not the Ark.

TER, I really don't like debating this stuff with you, because I like you, and I don't want to be on bad terms with you or anyone.

But what you're saying just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. God is in ALL true believers. So by your logic, ALL believers should be highly revered.

Like I said a few times before, it is good to honor and respect Mary. But all the other stuff is just adding on to the bible, or twisting it in order to fit the RCC/EO teachings on Mary.

[heavenlyboy34]

13! How many are in a coven?

Beg your pardon, you were right. I must've been sleepy or silly when I wrote 13... :/

[TER]

TER, I really don't like debating this stuff with you, because I like you, and I don't want to be on bad terms with you or anyone.

But what you're saying just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. God is in ALL true believers. So by your logic, ALL believers should be highly revered.

Like I said a few times before, it is good to honor and respect Mary. But all the other stuff is just adding on to the bible, or twisting it in order to fit the RCC/EO teachings on Mary.

I would remind you that it is the Church which wrote and canonized the Bible, and never has the Church taught that all the wonders and truths of the faith are contained within the limited Bible. The depths of the Christian faith are not limited to 27 books nor is the Holy Spirit, but the depths can be more fully known with knowledge of the rest of its Holy Tradition (of which the Scriptures are one part of).

As for venerating all people who have the Holy Spirit, you are indeed correct. We should very much venerate those who have the Holy Spirit abiding in them. The thing is, there are degrees of blessings and measures of the Holy Spirit abiding in people. Some who think they have Him actually do not. As for the Virgin Mary, we know undoubtably that God abides in her, and for that reason we so easily venerate her in contrast to another. But your point is true, that those who have God abiding in them should be venerated and adored. It is part of the love we have in Christ for one another.

There are some ascetic saints in fact who lived in solitary in the desert who in the rare times they encountered a Christian would fall prostrate before them because of the Holy Spirit in them. Worshiping not the new visitor, but God present within them.

[Ronin Truth]

Beg your pardon, you were right. I must've been sleepy or silly when I wrote 13... :/

I didn't figure that you would really have any interest in pursuing or even opening that potential occult can of worms.

[heavenlyboy34]

TER, I really don't like debating this stuff with you, because I like you, and I don't want to be on bad terms with you or anyone.

But what you're saying just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. God is in ALL true believers. So by your logic, ALL believers should be highly revered.

Like I said a few times before, it is good to honor and respect Mary. But all the other stuff is just adding on to the bible, or twisting it in order to fit the RCC/EO teachings on Mary.

Yes, God is in all true believers. The Theotokos has a very unique place among the saints because of her status as Mother Of God, hence the special veneration reserved for her.

Tradition doesn't add to or remove from or twist the bible-it clarifies the scriptures and enriches our lives. This is what is called the "fullness of the faith". Does your church use instruments during services? That is a type of adding to the bible. We can only extrapolate the use of voice in liturgical music from the bible. Does your minister draw his own conclusions about scripture and preach that? That's a way of adding on to the bible. etc, etc.

[RJB]

Just to add, that the Oriental Church that broke away in 451 AD also holds to these beliefs about Mary not just the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches. As far as Ethiopia to England and India to Spain the ancient churches held these beliefs when the first fracture occurred and they still retain these beliefs that were well established at the schism.

I would remind you that it is the Church which wrote and canonized the Bible, and never has the Church taught that all the wonders and truths and which are beneficial to the believer is contained within the limited Bible. The depths of the Christian faith are not limited to 27 books nor is the Holy Spirit, but the depths can be more fully known with knowledge of the rest of its Holy Tradition (of which the Scriptures are one part of).

As for venerating all people who have the Holy Spirit, you are indeed correct. We should very much venerate those who have the Holy Spirit abiding in them. The thing is, there are degrees of blessings and measures of the Holy Spirit abiding in people. Some who think they have Him actually do not. As for the Virgin Mary, we know undoubtably that God abides in her, and for that reason we so easily venerate her in contrast to another. But your point is true, that those who have God abiding in them should be venerated and adored. It is part of the love we have in Christ for one another.

There are some ascetic saints in fact who lived in solitary in the desert who in the rare times they encountered a Christian would fall prostrate before them because of the Holy Spirit in them. Worshiping not the new visitor, but God present within them.

[Kevin007]

And I was raised in the RCC and perhaps the "official" line is that they don't.. but in practice they absolutely do.

And this is an error. but try to point out the error and they will fight and defend their error.

They pray TO Mary.. they kneel down and worship before her image.
They place offerings before the images. They burn incense to the Queen of Heaven.



They are as hard headed and hard hearted as the people of Judah when they were told not to.

good post, honest too.

[RJB]

because I like you, and I don't want to be on bad terms with you or anyone.

I know this was addressed to TER, but I want to say, I apologize if I came off as a smart ass to you-- I have to work hard to hold it in check. But here we are with 600+ posts, with links to all kinds of people doing all kinds of oddities not included in what the OP intended with the hint (not quite an accusation) that that is what we do. I think I beat my point to death and I apologize if it was a bit irritating to you, but that is what 600+ posts hinting that I worship Mary feels from my point of view.

I'll take my leave for the evening. God bless and peace to you all.

[heavenlyboy34]

good post, honest too.

Perhas WRT his particular parish. But it's not a problem within official RCC doctrine, dogma, catechism, etc.

[TER]

Just to add, that the Oriental Church that broke away in 451 AD also holds to these beliefs about Mary not just the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches. As far as Ethiopia to England and India to Spain the ancient churches held these beliefs when the first fracture occurred and they still retain these beliefs that were well established at the schism.

Exactly. In the year which the Church canonized the Bible, they were also singing hymns to the Theotokos and venerating her. Why is it that some now would accept the Church's written canon (in truth, many do not even realize they are using a mistranslated and incomplete version) but do not also accept the rest of the faith which they handed down? Were the early saints only inspired when it came to choosing the books and not in writing the hymns?

[lilymc]

Yes, God is in all true believers. The Theotokos has a very unique place among the saints because of her status as Mother Of God, hence the special veneration reserved for her.

Tradition doesn't add to or remove from or twist the bible-it clarifies the scriptures and enriches our lives. This is what is called the "fullness of the faith". Does your church use instruments during services? That is a type of adding to the bible. We can only extrapolate the use of voice in liturgical music from the bible. Does your minister draw his own conclusions about scripture and preach that? That's a way of adding on to the bible. etc, etc.

When I said that, I wasn't talking about all tradition, I was specifically talking about certain doctrines or ideas that I believe are unbiblical.

But anyway, we'll have to agree to disagree.... I gotta get going now. I'm really tired (I finished a video recently and didn't get much sleep for a couple nights in a row.)

so ciao for now!

[heavenlyboy34]

I know this was addressed to TER, but I want to say, I apologize if I came off as a smart ass to you-- I have to work hard to hold it in check. But here we are with 600+ posts, with links to all kinds of people doing all kinds of oddities not included in what the OP intended with the hint (not quite an accusation) that that is what we do. I think I beat my point to death and I apologize if it was a bit irritating to you, but that is what 600+ posts hinting that I worship Mary feels from my point of view.

I'll take my leave for the evening. God bless and peace to you all.

'Night. ~hugs~

[Kevin007]

You find it bizarre that we consider ourselves in the family of God through Jesus and his mother? Jesus didn't just drop from the heavens. He was born of a woman who was his mother. Jesus is our brother, so his mother is our mother.



No one has called her a deity. Earlier you said you accused no one in this thread of worshipping Mary. I hope you are sticking to that.

I do think some get carried away with their devotion to the woman, but the photos you post don't prove they are worshipping her. They are probably in prayer WITH her to her son, our brother.
Back to this... A woman is crowned in heaven. You and Pete say this is Israel. Does this mean that YOU worship Israel? By the logic you apply to us, it does.

No it's not. She is NOT God. We don't worship her. We revere her as the Hebrews revered the Ark of the Old Covenant.

So you misspoke when you said your weren't accusing anyone on this thread of Mary worship?

How is Jesus our brother?

[TER]

When I said that, I wasn't talking about all tradition, I was specifically talking about certain doctrines or ideas that I believe are unbiblical.

But anyway, we'll have to agree to disagree.... I gotta get going now. I'm really tired (I finished a video recently and didn't get much sleep for a couple nights in a row.)

so ciao for now!

Goodnight my Christian sister. I know some of the things written by me and others here seem strange and hard to understand because they seem to go against your sensibilities and notions of worship. Please believe us when we say that our love and adoration of the Virgin Mary and our worship of God (Who took her flesh and was born from her and still abides in her by the Holy Spirit) only more fully compliments our devotion and worship of God alone. We should love all people who are made in the image of God, even more so those who have been baptized in Christ and have God Himself abiding in them. Our love for them does not take away from God, but rather more so adds to our devotion, love and worship of God, for He is present within them and abides in them and alone is the Source of love and the Giver of all good things.

[lilymc]

I know this was addressed to TER, but I want to say, I apologize if I came off as a smart ass to you-- I have to work hard to hold it in check. But here we are with 600+ posts, with links to all kinds of people doing all kinds of oddities not included in what the OP intended with the hint (not quite an accusation) that that is what we do. I think I beat my point to death and I apologize if it was a bit irritating to you, but that is what 600+ posts hinting that I worship Mary feels from my point of view.

I'll take my leave for the evening. God bless and peace to you all.

No worries. And I'm sorry if I was a bit impatient or smartass.

I also want to repeat that when I said people worship Mary, I was speaking in general about people out there (like I said, I live in a country where there is a lot of that), not about you guys.

Goodnight my Christian sister. I know some of the things written by me and others here seem strange and hard to understand because they seem to go against your sensibilities and notions of worship. Please believe us when we say that our love and adoration of the Virgin Mary and our worship of God who took her flesh and was born from her and still abides in her by the Holy Spirit, only more fully compliments our devotion and worship of God alone. We should love all people who are made in the image of God, even more so those who have been baptized in Christ and have God Himself abiding in them. Our love for them only more greatly adds to our devotion and love of God Who alone is the Source and Giver of all good things.

Thanks TER and it's only dinnertime here, but good night!

[RJB]

How is Jesus our brother?

Welcome to the family of God, my brother.

Matthew 12:48-50
But he replied to the man who told him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

Rom 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Romans 8:15-17
For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

[pcosmar]

Perhas WRT his particular parish.
.

I have no particular Parish.
I have the written Word.. Both Old and New Testaments,, and the Spirit of God to guide me in them..

it is unfortunate that so much was removed,, but I believe that was another error that happened long before there was a Roman or Eastern church.
I suspect that great error was present before the Counsel of Laodicea ..

The very fact that it was run by Murderous Psychopaths is evidence of that. (Christ never commanded that "heritics" be murdered,, nor did the Apostles)
That was the birth of Political church.
I have no interest in the "Church" that was created by those folks. It was born in error.

[TER]

The Council of Laodicea was not run by murderous psychopaths nor condemned heretics to be murdered. You were wrong the first time you said that and wrong now.

[erowe1]

Bishops sit on the thrones of the Apostles having been ordained through their ministry to power and authority given to them as overseers and leaders of the flock. Bishops are the image of the Apostles in this world and continue their ministry to guard the truths, protect the faithful and feed the flock. How? By the Holy Spirit.

Even if all that were true, none of it makes bishops in general, nor Ignatius in particular, apostles. Ignatius was not an apostle. He himself said so.

No they don't have such a list because there are many considered so and many not even known.

Do you have any way of knowing if any given writing was divinely inspired (i.e. God breathed)?

And, once again, can you show me a source that speaks in any kind of authoritative way for the EOC, saying that the EOC teaches that some writings outside the Bible were divinely inspired?

I am not the only one claiming that. That is the teaching of the Church. The Bishops have continued the apostolic ministry initiated by the original twelve.

Even if that's true, continuing the apostolic ministry doesn't make them apostles.

Later Church Fathers revealed it, the Church has proclaimed it

Some later human beings claimed it, and others believed them. But "the Church" never said anything about the matter.

It was already a given being that he was appointed by the Apostles (namely St. Peter) to take over the episcopal duties after St. Evdovius passed in 69AD.

It's not a given, because everything after the words "being that" is just some legend that you heard from some human being. Do you have any evidence for that claim?

Peter died in AD 64. Why do you think he would appoint someone to replace Evdovius, if Evdovius was 5 years away from dying? How could Evdovius have been the bishop of Antioch prior to AD 69 when monarchical bishops didn't even exist yet in AD 69? And how old was Ignatius in AD 64 when Peter appointed him to take over a bishopric 5 years off into the future?

It is not just a human being saying so, it it the communion of baptized Christians inspired and guided by the Holy Spirit which make up the Church which tell you so.

That's provably false. Every member of the community of baptized Christians is made is a human being. The Holy Spirit baptizes, indwells, seals, convicts, and enlightens, each and every one of them. And some of these human beings say what you believe, while others don't. This has been the case throughout the entire history of the Church, from the first moment when your beliefs came into existence--some of the human beings said what you believe, and others didn't. You seem to arbitrarily pick whichever human beings you happen to agree with and say that they're the ones guided by the Holy Spirit, so they must be right. How do we know? Because they agree with TER. No appeal to the opinions of the apostles as expressed in their own writings is necessary or helpful.

[pcosmar]

The Council of Laodicea was not run by murderous psychopaths nor condemned heretics to be murdered. You were wrong the first time you said that and wrong now.

Burning at the stake,, and other atrocities happened a bit later. they had there origins here.
I believe much error began before this counsel,, but it was codified here.
It was shortly after that other decrees took place.

It is Our will that all the peoples who are ruled by the administration of Our Clemency shall practice that religion which the divine Peter the Apostle transmitted to the Romans....The rest, whom We adjudge demented and insane, shall sustain the infamy of heretical dogmas, their meeting places shall not receive the name of churches, and they shall be smitten first by divine vengeance and secondly by the retribution of Our own initiative"

The Books of Prophets being banned was a huge error.
It was where the Political Church was codified, though that started with Constantine.

[erowe1]

But shall I, when permitted to write on this point, reach such a height of self-esteem, that though being a condemned man, I should issue commands to you as if I were an apostle?

-Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Trallians 3

I do not, as Peter and Paul, issue commandments unto you. They were apostles; I am but a condemned man: they were free, while I am, even until now, a servant.

-Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Romans 4

[Ronin Truth]

Holy Mother Church - Google Bomb, 7 million results
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...70._YYrdML5x-U

Late breaking, correction update:

About 13,200,000 results

Google must have turned a few more to count.

[erowe1]

Holy Mother Church - Google Bomb, 7 million results
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...70._YYrdML5x-U

What are you getting at? What does the fact that it has 7 million results indicate?

[erowe1]

Ronin Truth doesn't know how to use google - Google bomb, 12 million results

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...20use%20google

Just saying.

[Ronin Truth]

What are you getting at? What does the fact that it has 7 million results indicate?

https://www.google.com/search?q=Semi...gbv=2&oq=&gs_l=

[erowe1]

https://www.google.com/search?q=Semi...gbv=2&oq=&gs_l=

Looks good. I'll put that on my list of restaurants to try in Chicago.

[Ronin Truth]

Ronin Truth doesn't know how to use google - Google bomb, 12 million results

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=Ronin%20truth%20doesn't%20know%20how%20to%20us e%20google

Just saying.

Now it's

About 13,000,000 results

I must have triggered some additional interest.

[Ronin Truth]

Looks good. I'll put that on my list of restaurants to try in Chicago.

These events laid the groundwork for all of the pagan religious systems of antiquity, as well as many alive today. Semiramis, in particular was the model and original of every goddess and female cult figure in the ancient and modern worlds (either directly or by derivation); and thus it essential to know her story in order to discern what is factual legend and what is merely myth.

http://www.ldolphin.org/semir.html

[erowe1]

http://www.ldolphin.org/semir.html

So, according to that person, prior to the Semiramis cult, which we can't trace back further than the first millennium BC, nobody had ever thought of worshipping a female deity?