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Thread: Yazidi Stone Woman to Death for Intermarrying with Muslim Man

  1. #1

    Yazidi Stone Woman to Death for Intermarrying with Muslim Man

    After she was killed, her body was taken outside of town, burned,

    and [ritualistically] buried
    with the bones of a dog,

    to show how worthless she was.

    An autopsy showed she died of a fractured skull and spine.
    http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2...th-near-mosul/

    Already in 2003, the German news magazine, Der Spiegel, wrote:
    More and more often, police must protect young women from the Yasidi faith community from their own relatives – and help them flee.

    2007:

    VIDEO: The stoning of Du’a Khalil Aswad
    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1w...edtodeath_news






    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoning...a_Khalil_Aswad

    Du’a Khalil Aswad (دعاء خليل أسود)(c. 1989 – c. April 7, 2007) was a 17-year-old Iraqi Kurd of the Yazidi faith who was stoned to death in an honor killing.[1] It is believed that she was killed around April 7, 2007, but the incident did not come to light until video of the stoning, apparently recorded on a mobile phone, appeared on the Internet.[2] The rumor that the stoning was connected to her alleged conversion to Islam prompted reprisals against Yazidis

    They have a tradition of killing any of their members who leave the religion
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pict...?frame=3000896





    part 1

    part 2





    2011:

    The 18-year-old woman, identified only as Arzu ., was violently kidnapped from her boyfriend’s flat in Detmold, North Rhine-Westphalia, last November, and taken to a motorway services station where she was shot dead.

    Judge Michael Reineke heard that she had been beaten several times by members of her own family, particularly her brother Osman, and that in September 2011 she had fled to a refuge and filed official complaints against her brother and father.
    “That was pretty much her death sentence,” the judge said, according to a report in the Berliner Zeitung newspaper on Wednesday. Referring to the Kurdish roots and Yazidi faith,
    http://www.thelocal.de/20120517/42605



    The next shocking aspect of Yazidi culture that I have discovered was the way women are treated. A few months ago, a Yazidi lady published a critical view about the treatment of women within her society. It was clear that Yazidi women are treated even worse than Muslim women. The impression one would get is that the sexual act within the Yazidi marriage does not differ considerably from rape. The man is expected to be as rough as possible without slightest regard to her feelings or humanity. However, here we cannot ignore that such an attitude might have been also influenced by Islam. It might be a case of impressionable victim taking after the aggressor, when the aggressor is not punish and left to make ill-begotten gains and claim glory on top of all that, as Muslims do.[5] It seems that Yazidis have been trying to convey a message to the Islamic neighborhood that although they differ slightly in their religions they share all other values with Muslims, particularly in regard to women, whose sexuality seems to have become the pivot of Yazidi and Islamic men’s honor.

    []

    They would not marry an outsider who is from their Yezidi belief. They would kill a Yezidi girl who marries a Muslim Kurd etc. They are very strict in preserving this tradition.
    http://globalvoicesonline.org/2007/0...illing-of-dua/


    “Every woman who flees the home is the object of an honor murder,” noted one German social worker. The Federal Crime Office (Germany’s FBI) registered 48 such homicides between 1996 and 2006 with a further 22 people surviving attempted honor killings.
    http://www.frontpagemag.com/2012/ste...g-enthusiasts/

    via google translate:
    http://translate.googleusercontent.c...hjf69wrlHh3C0Q


    http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-26060059.html

    06.01.2003 ALIENS

    Hunting Skrya

    From Frhlingsdorf, Michael
    Increasingly, police officers must protect young women from the religious community of Yezidis in front of their own relatives - and help them escape. Because the clan put archaic marriage rules if necessary by force.



    THE Yazidi



    belong to a constantly pursued archaic religious community from the Kurdish areas in the Middle East. There are an estimated 150,000 Yazidis live. Came to Germany as guest workers or refugees, around 30 000 In addition to the belief in God and an angel are the Yazidis particularly important their strict social rules - especially the caste system and the prohibition to marry non-Yazidi.



    For a sentimental farewell to the parents, the young girl did not have time. It was just after midnight, and Skrya E. squeezed through a basement hole to freedom. Merely dressed in T-shirt and jeans, she ran down the road towards Celle city center. Only away, do not turn around, run, run.



    Here, the evening was not a bad start. Together with his family, the girl at a Yezidi wedding had been. Right in the middle Skrya had slunk away and met secretly with her boyfriend, a Pakistani Muslim. 300 meters from their doorstep then came the disaster: Just they said goodbye to the beloved with a kiss, as one of her six brothers showed up. He grabbed his sister, dragged her by force home. He pushed her in a basement room and locked the door. "Wait until the parents get home," he said.



    What happens to the Yazidi girl who engage with other faiths, knew Skrya: If they are lucky, they are only ejected.

    If they are unlucky, they are so long locked away and beaten until they knuckle under. And they saw only one way out: get out, no money, no papers, no idea of ​​how a struggling, 16-year-old.


    That was five and a half years ago, and still is the woman with her Pakistani boyfriend on the run. She hid in various cities in Germany, the Netherlands, in Belgium - and is the opinion of the Celler police still in critical condition.



    Around ten similar dramas edit the officials alone in the room Celle per year. Because there live about 5000 Yazidis, it is one of the largest settlements of the religious community pursued outside the city center in northern Iraq. Increasingly try young women, and sometimes men, to escape the strict rules of marriage Yazidi. They seek refuge at the police station or at the Youth Office, they get a new identity, to be brought in other cities, sometimes even abroad include Spain.



    For the Yezidi clan chiefs rarely give up; they often want to retrieve the apostates with violence - or simply revenge. To get the volatile women on the trail, they entrust before detectives or the banned Kurdish Workers' Party PKK. The entertains the opinion of the police a veritable Investigation Service to track the renegades and so to gain support among the clans.



    What it means to be persecuted by relatives, Skrya E. soon noticed. During the night of her escape she had gone with her friend to Hamburg in the morning then on to Flensburg to a brother of his friend. For an hour she was on the phone from there with her mother and tried in vain to explain the reasons for their flight, she says. Then she was gone with her boyfriend in the city to buy from his savings a jacket, a pair of shoes.



    Together they took too long: On the way back, told Skrya, did several cars with Celler flag outside the house seen: The men of her clan had either found out where the brother of her friend lived - or they may have had the phone number on the display seen .



    Skrya hid in a hospital, later they emerged with acquaintances at a refugee center in Pinneberg. But even there it was only a few days safely. Then again stood darkly resolute Kurds outside the door - a roommate the girl had probably betrayed. At the last minute Skrya jumped out the window, and again they ran for life and freedom.



    "It's hard to believe that the Yazidis always find the tracks," said an investigator wonders. Profiles of the fugitives would be passed by Kurdish cultural associations from city to city. The PKK could be based on such actions on its nationwide infrastructure. Any hints there bounty.
    Not rarely succeeds the clans even to come to protected data - either because sitting in authorities clerk that can be elicit by tearful wailing mothers addresses, it is because family members work in offices or even about commercial insurance is.



    Frequently try parents, relatives or even religious leaders to find the renegades with the help of the police. The trick is simple: you must reimburse only complaint for kidnapping or theft. Sometimes even goes as missing to get the file - and so perhaps the new address of the disappeared. This is why many refugees report to the police and inform that they have run away freely.



    What she drifts away from her relatives, who came as guest workers or as religious persecution mainly from Iraq and Turkey to Germany, are medieval-like rules: Yezidis have a virgin marry, she may fall in love only to another Yazidis - and only in a from their own social caste, of which there are three. Because it is so often difficult to find a suitable partner, is very often married traditionally within the extended family. Also Skrya should marry a cousin she says.

    And the families steadfastly adhered together. If for once a complaint for assault, false imprisonment or rape lands on the desk of a German official statements are often later withdrawn or denied with regard to the close relationship. "Many procedures must then be adjusted again," says the head of the police station Celle, Gerald Schomburg. And the Celler prosecutor Gertrud Peest can not remember a judgment - even though she now knows dozens flight cases.



    So a desperate Jesidin had a year ago reported to the police and asked for help: A relative of them guarding around the clock, and she was afraid for her friend who had been kidnapped by several clan members. The young Muslim reported a short time later on a call box at the highway police in North Rhine-Westphalia. He jumped at a rest area out of a car with several Kurds wanted to bring him to Dusseldorf airport to fly out him in the Middle East.
    A pretty clear case of false imprisonment, the Celle prosecutor took up the investigation. But a little later all parties withdrew their statements, and the young woman and her boyfriend. The process had to be stopped.



    The tenacity with which the Yezidi pursue their renegade girl stands in a strange contradiction to the contents of their religion, for which is regarded as very peaceful. A missionary as in Islam or in Christianity there is not - you Jeside is only by birth. Religious zealots are rare.

    There are no binding writings, because religion is transmitted mainly orally.




    "Even the most Yazidis itself is relatively little known about the Yezidi religion," says the Essenes anthropologist Andreas Ackermann. This is particularly true for the laity caste of mureeds, which includes most Yazidis. Many mureeds know neither prayers, nor do they take part in religious ceremonies.



    In a scientific survey of Yazidis by the University of Cologne in the year before last two scientists came to the conclusion that a bid by all interviewees as "the most essential" was called: Marry only within thy faith and of thy order. Many had occurred to no other jesidisches bid.



    Constantly monitor the parents therefore their children, full of concern, they could slip them. The more the young generation tries to fit in Germany, more violent hold the ancients, however. A school friend had Skryas about to leave high school and go to high school, just because of the way home was to monitor shorter and therefore better from there.



    It's not just about the archaic morality, it is also about money: Up to 40,000 EUR fathers have to shell out, so that her son can marry a Yezidi Virgin - although the highest Yezidi clerics Mir Tahsin Saied Beg from Iraq the bride money recently on wanted to limit € 2500, to stop the ruinous for some family gouging.



    Previously all young people had been killed, did not adhere to the rules of marriage
    , writes the Yezidi teacher candidate Nezir as in a scientific paper. In Germany, the Yazidis would find most "necessity" so from that disobedient only to banish. But here in the West would hardly disappear the violence, but it serves to "restore the family's honor".



    Nezir example itself is a special witness of the often murderous practices of the clans: He sits in Bielefeld an eleven-year prison sentence on murder. In January 2001, he had dressed as a postman another shot Yazidis, who had killed his brother before. A bid of blood revenge.


    How violent can be immediate family itself, learned Skrya E., as her family had tracked in Amsterdam. After their escape from Germany they had there only once rented a hotel room - unfortunately under her real name. That was enough for the Kurdish scouts apparently.



    First Skrya E. confessed to her mother that she was pregnant. The have her then so rabidly beaten in the abdomen that she had lost her child, she says. With bloody pants it was her then but managed to escape. For some Pakistani friends were her and her friend came to help and have the Yazidi put to flight: "One of my brothers has since vowed deadly vengeance," says Skrya.



    Thereafter, the Jesidin, the daughter of migrant workers has the German nationality, tried with her partner, to make a living in Cologne. But in the summer, she received a surprise post from the registration office. A lawyer for her mother had asked for registration information. Skrya called - camouflaged on a British satellite phone - at home, in order to settle once and for all time the situation: "Instead of listening, I was my father yelled at the worst Kurdish foul language."
    In a later phone call, she spoke to one of her brothers - they begged for help: He had a Croatian friend. "In revenge to my parents I have helped him," says Skrya. In his escape, he slipped her under in Cologne and telephoned from their telephone with relatives - obviously a mistake.



    Through a tip, police in Celle soon wind of the fact that Skryas family would embark on a campaign of revenge towards Rhineland received. "At the last minute we were able to bring the family out of the apartment," said Police Chief Schomburg. Now Skrya E. tried elsewhere to start again from the beginning.



    Schomburg and fears that he might soon need to protect young women more frequently as E. Skrya of their own clan - namely, it should be a new war where most Yazidis live: in Iraq. "Then again, thousands of refugees are pouring into Germany, including many traditional Yazidis."

    MICHAEL FRHLING VILLAGE


    THE MIRROR 2/2003
    All rights reserved
    Reproduction only with permission of SPIEGEL-Verlag Rudolf Augstein GmbH & Co. KG.



    According to competent and informal local organizations the number of suicides have exceeded more than 30 cases during the current year among Yazidis,www.Ekurd.net as 53 suicides have been monitored in Sinjar district in 2012, while 70 suicides have been registered in 2011 and 36 cases during 2010 among Yazidis.

    Activists say in this regard that these figures are much lower than the real numbers, because there are many cases that are not monitored or families of the people who committed suicides refrain for the registration deaths of their loved ones, attributing the reason to accidental incidents.

    Statistics show that the percentage of male suicides is of 36 % and 64% of women, as people who commit suicide are aged between 18 and 30 years old.

    Women usually tend to burn themselves mostly
    http://www.ekurd.net/mismas/articles...siniraq214.htm



    89 women killed, 357 burnt in Iraq's Kurdistan region in 2012
    http://www.ekurd.net/mismas/articles.../state6863.htm
    Last edited by presence; 08-16-2014 at 09:03 AM.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...




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  3. #2
    How can we ignore this Human Rights atrocity?

    We must export some good old American morality to them:
    1. plenty of porn
    2. gambling
    3. 13-year olds dressed like hookers
    4. celebrity worship
    5. rock-n-roll church services
    6. broken families
    7. excessive taxes
    8. highest divorce rate in the world
    9. police the world, and bomb the $#@! out of any country that doesn't play ball

    If they don't straighten up pronto, then covertly hijack their government, and/or drop some freedom bombs on them.
    Last edited by Jamesiv1; 08-13-2014 at 11:03 AM.
    1. Don't lie.
    2. Don't cheat.
    3. Don't steal.
    4. Don't kill.
    5. Don't commit adultery.
    6. Don't covet what your neighbor has, especially his wife.
    7. Honor your father and mother.
    8. Remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy.
    9. Dont use your Higher Power's name in vain, or anyone else's.
    10. Do unto others as you would have them do to you.

    "For the love of money is the root of all evil..." -- I Timothy 6:10, KJV

  4. #3
    Yazidis are legit Satan worshipers, I don't support anything bad happening to them but it's interesting to note.

  5. #4
    Orlov wrote about them:

    http://www.theburningplatform.com/20...il-worshipers/

    Now, if your reaction on hearing these news was “Who the heck are the Yezedis?” then you are in good company. This is a very obscure, fairly small, incredibly ancient cult, and few people have heard of them. I have, and so my reaction was “Oh no, they are killing the devil worshipers!”

    Now, I am not especially sympathetic to devil-worship, but I happen to be a connoisseur of tiny separatist communities that abide for thousands of years, and the Yezedis are just the sort of group I generalized about in the book Communities that Abide. I will be very sad if they are exterminated in their homeland (there are a few diaspora groups, so, chances are, they will abide regardless).

    The Yezedis are separatist and endogamous (only marry their own kind), plus they have a strict caste system that restricts who can marry whom, and so they have been in-breeding for a few thousand years now. As a result, they have become quite peculiar. For instance, it has been reported (I haven’t tried it myself) that if you seat a Yezidi on the ground and draw a circle around him, he will be unable to get out of the circle and just sit there and starve. Furthermore, he will suffer severe physiological damage if you try to drag him out of it.

    The Yezidis are quite secretive about their very complicated religion and its myriad compulsive rituals and superstitions, but it is known that they worship a deity known as the Peacock Angel, which, correctly or incorrectly, has been interpreted to be Satan. Consequently, the Yezidis have been persecuted as devil worshipers with gruesome consistency. There is no doubt that the boys from the Islamic State consider them to be the worst kind of heathen, and, since their policy is to behead first and ask questions later, there is little chance that they can be shifted from this position. Spin it any way you like, but everyone in the region knows this group as “the Yezedi devil-worshipers.”
    Based on the idea of natural rights, government secures those rights to the individual by strictly negative intervention, making justice costless and easy of access; and beyond that it does not go. The State, on the other hand, both in its genesis and by its primary intention, is purely anti-social. It is not based on the idea of natural rights, but on the idea that the individual has no rights except those that the State may provisionally grant him. It has always made justice costly and difficult of access, and has invariably held itself above justice and common morality whenever it could advantage itself by so doing.
    --Albert J. Nock

  6. #5
    Obama is now going to amount a "humanitarian" rescue mission. By the way, I'm sure the "non-combat troops" (say wha?) who are going appreciate that their arrival will be expected and also that the enemy has up-to-date US weapons, equipment, and CIA-quality training.

    This has all the markings of a disaster in the making. One Stinger and this turns into a Presidency-crushing fiasco.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by jkob View Post
    Yazidis are legit Satan worshipers, I don't support anything bad happening to them but it's interesting to note.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazidi

    I don't read anything particularly Satanic about them, other than what I could project of my beliefs onto them.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    Obama is now going to amount a "humanitarian" rescue mission. By the way, I'm sure the "non-combat troops" (say wha?) who are going appreciate that their arrival will be expected and also that the enemy has up-to-date US weapons, equipment, and CIA-quality training.

    This has all the markings of a disaster in the making. One Stinger and this turns into a Presidency-crushing fiasco.
    Bring em on in, I'm sure the left and the feminists will show them how tolerant we are.
    "The Patriarch"

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazidi

    I don't read anything particularly Satanic about them, other than what I could project of my beliefs onto them.
    The "satanic" element is largely a "lost in translation" issue.

    They're most revered saint was a "fallen angel" named Shaitan. Except in their faith the fallen angel was redeemed and returned to grace.

    Compare this to Islam and Christianity and the Abraham version of "Satan" the fallen angel that represents a daulity to the righteousness of the Lord....

    "They're devil worshippers"

    When in reality they're a "non-dualistic" religion; there is no devil, even the most evil of spirits return to grace; its sacriligious to them to even speak of devils and satan.


    All of this aside.... from all I've read they beat, torture, stone to death their women if they interact with Muslim men.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...




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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazidi

    I don't read anything particularly Satanic about them, other than what I could project of my beliefs onto them.
    Well,, I suppose that would depend on what your beliefs are. (or if you even have any)

    And what you think the worship of angels is.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melek_Taus
    "Neither is it permitted to us to pronounce the name of Shaitan because it is the name of our God, nor any name resembling this,
    btw,, I used wiki as a point of reference,, but dug a bit further,,
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    The "satanic" element is largely a "lost in translation" issue.

    They're most revered saint was a "fallen angel" named Shaitan. Except in their faith the fallen angel was redeemed and returned to grace.

    Compare this to Islam and Christianity and the Abraham version of "Satan" the fallen angel that represents a daulity to the righteousness of the Lord....

    "They're devil worshippers"

    When in reality they're a "non-dualistic" religion; there is no devil, even the most evil of spirits return to grace; its sacriligious to them to even speak of devils and satan.


    All of this aside.... from all I've read they beat, torture, stone to death their women if they interact with Muslim men.
    The entire Muslim world beat and stone their women, what's your point. If you are going to use neocon tactics to demonize whole groups of people don't be surprised if the reaction is "bomb the hell out of all the women beaters!" in the Muslim world.
    War; everything in the world wrong, evil and immoral combined into one and multiplied by millions.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by klamath View Post
    The entire Muslim world beat and stone their women, what's your point. If you are going to use neocon tactics to demonize whole groups of people don't be surprised if the reaction is "bomb the hell out of all the women beaters!" in the Muslim world.
    I guess my point is that with Yazidi's on the other side of the world we're so quick to spend billions in their defense... where if this group was living in Waco TX the Feds would be labelling them a cult and launching firestorm raids.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by klamath View Post
    The entire Muslim world beat and stone their women,
    BULL$#@!.

    There are a few sects that do..The country that is most Favored by the US (Saudi Arabia) is one of the worst.
    Certainly not all Muslims. and not "The entire Muslim world".
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  15. #13
    Kudos to all of you who wish to invest your own money helping these folks on the other side of the globe!

    Me.........I live in the Ozarks so if I've got extra money to help folks I'll use it locally.

  16. #14
    You Americans just can't get a brake.From all of the people in the world you started a humanitarian action ( and in the future possibly a military one ) for an incestuous group of people which are considered by the rest of the people in the region as Satanic Worshipers.ISIS PR is going to have some good material to work with
    Last edited by Demigod; 08-13-2014 at 02:34 PM.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Demigod View Post
    You Americans just can't get a brake.From all of the people in the world you started a humanitarian action ( and in the future possibly a military one ) for an incestuous group of people which are considered by the rest of the people in the region as Satanic Worshipers.ISIS PR is going to have some good material to work with
    More head chopping , that will cure it . Isis reminds me of the Dems and abortion , killing the future tax base. The world is so $#@!ing retarded it I destined to not be saved.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Well,, I suppose that would depend on what your beliefs are. (or if you even have any)

    And what you think the worship of angels is.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melek_Taus

    "The Yazidi taboo against the Arabic word Shaitan (الشیطان) and on words containing the consonants š (sh) and t/ṭ have been used to suggest a connection between this Taws Melek and Shaitan,[2] although no evidence exists to suggest Yazidis worship Taws Melek as the same figure.[5]"


    btw,, I used wiki as a point of reference,, but dug a bit further,,

    Plenty of faiths pray to/worship angels. If that makes them satanic, what does it make the Orthodox and Roman Catholics?



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    Plenty of faiths pray to/worship angels. If that makes them satanic, what does it make the Orthodox and Roman Catholics?
    Praying to angels.. That is huge error.
    The angels of God will not allow it,,and would rebuke it.

    Praying to the Fallen (rebellious) angels is satanic. Satan being the name for the leader of such,,(or the name for all in general).

    Recognizing their existence is one thing.. Praying to,,or worshiping is quite another.

    There is a War.. and you are either on one side or the other.

    This particular religion worships a fallen angel.. They think satan is the "Good" guy.

    My concern and observations were on the political,, On the Air strikes and rescue,, and other extraordinary measures taken here but not for others.. (satan worshipers rescued,, but no attempt made for others)
    And even if what we are being told is near truth. and how much of that is truth.
    Last edited by pcosmar; 08-16-2014 at 08:52 AM.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    Plenty of faiths pray to/worship angels. If that makes them satanic, what does it make the Orthodox and Roman Catholics?
    Orthodox and Roman Catholics do not worship angels. They do ask for their assistance. Praying to and worshiping are two different things.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Praying to angels.. That is huge error.
    It is a huge error if you pray to demons. Praying to angels, asking for their assistance, is both beneficial and Scriptural.

    Intercession of the Angels and Departed Saints for those in the Flesh

    link HERE

    by Stephen Gagnon

    What do the angels and also the departed saints—that is, our brothers and sisters in Christ, who have gone to be with the Lord—actually do? Do they sit around idly on clouds, playing harps, as depicted in modern popular culture? Scripture does not say a whole lot about their activity. However, what little the Bible does say, is that they worship and glorify God in heavenly worship, and offer their own and our prayers to him. This is an activity that is common to both the saints and the angels.

    The Scriptures testify that the angels in heaven intercede to God for those on earth, offering the prayers of those on earth with their own.

    And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.1

    (Raphael the angel speaking to Tobit) And so when you and your daughter in law Sarah prayed, I brought a reminder of your prayer before the Holy One....I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One.2

    The Jewish apocryphal writings provide ample testimony that ancient Judaism had firm faith in the intercession of angels for men. For example, in the Book of Enoch, the fallen angels ask Enoch to pray for them, so Enoch did as requested. The Lord replied to Enoch, telling him that angels ought rather to be praying for men.


    Then the Lord with his own mouth called me, saying, Approach hither, Enoch, at my holy word. And He raised me up, making me draw near even to the entrance. My eye was directed to the ground. Then addressing me, He spoke and said, Hear, neither be afraid, O righteous Enoch, thou scribe of righteousness: approach hither, and hear my voice. Go, say to the Watchers of heaven [fallen angels], who have sent thee to pray for them, You ought to pray for men, and not men for you. Wherefore have you forsaken the lofty and holy heaven, which endures forever, and have lain with women; have defiled yourselves with the daughters of men; have taken to yourselves wives; have acted like the sons of the earth, and begotten an impious offspring?3

    In the same apocryphal book, Gabriel is said to be petitioning and praying for those who dwell on earth.


    The third voice I heard petitioning and praying for those who dwell upon earth, and supplicate the name of the Lord of Spirits…The third, who presides over all that is powerful, is Gabriel.4
    The Archangel Michael is said to come down and receive the prayers of men.

    And the angel took me and led me thence to a fifth heaven. And the gate was closed. And I said, Lord, is not this gate-way open that we may enter? And the angel said to me, We cannot enter until Michael comes, who holds the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven; but wait and thou shalt see the glory of God. And there was a great sound, as thunder. And I said, Lord, what is this sound? And he said to me, Even now Michael, the commander of the angels, comes down to receive the prayers of men. And behold a voice came, Let the gates be opened. And they opened them, and there was a roar as of thunder. And Michael came, and the angel who was with me came face to face with him and said, Hail, my commander, and that of all our order. And the commander Michael said, Hail thou also, our brother, and the interpreter of the revelations to those who pass through life virtuously.5


    And now, fear the Lord my children, and beware of Satan and his spirits. Draw near unto God and unto the angel that intercedeth for you, for he is a mediator between God and man, and for the peace of Israel he shall stand up against the kingdom of the enemy.6


    The apocryphal Book of Enoch gives testimony regarding the departed saints in the presence of God interceding for the sons of men on earth.

    There I saw another vision; I saw the habitations and couches of the saints. There my eyes beheld their habitations with the angels, and their couches with the holy ones. They were entreating, supplicating, and praying for the sons of men; while righteousness like water flowed before them, and mercy like dew was scattered over the earth. And thus shall it be with them for ever and for ever.7

    According to Scripture, also the departed saints in heaven intercede to God for those on earth. For example, Judas Maccabeus was said to have had a dream wherein he saw Jeremiah interceding for the Jewish people during the terror of Antiochus Epiphanies.

    He (Judas Maccabeus) armed each of them not so much with confidence in shields and spears as with the inspiration of brave words, and he cheered them all by relating a dream, a sort of vision, which was worthy of belief. What he saw was this: Onias, who had been high priest, a noble and good man, of modest bearing and gentle manner, one who spoke fittingly and had been trained from childhood in all that belongs to excellence, was praying with outstretched hands for the whole body of the Jews. Then likewise a man appeared, distinguished by his gray hair and dignity, and of marvelous majesty and authority. And Onias spoke saying, "This is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah the prophet of God."8


    In the Book or Revelation, the saints in heaven (symbolized by the twenty-four elders) are depicted as offering the prayers of the saints on earth.

    And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, honour, and glory, and blessing. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.9


    According to Orthodox tradition, the four beasts represent the Cherubim and the four Gospels.

    Some think that by these living creatures should be understood the four elements and God’s governance and preservation of them, or God’s dominion over the regions of heaven, earth, sea and the underworld. However, as is clear from the further description of the appearance of these living creatures, without doubt they are the very angelic powers who in the mystical vision of the holy prophet Ezekiel (Ez. 1:5-25) on the river Chobar, supported the mystical chariot on which the Lord God sits as a King. These four living creatures have served as it were as emblems of the four Evangelists. The multitude of their eyes indicates the Divine omniscience, the knowing of everything past, present and future. These are the highest angelic beings, closest to God [the Seraphim—tr] who ceaselessly glorify God.10

    On the other hand, the twenty four elders are generally understood as symbolizing redeemed humanity.

    …they are usually interpreted to be elders of the old and new Covenants: the twelve sons of Jacob and the Twelve Apostles, the fullness of both covenants. They are the foundation of the people of God (7:4; Matt. 19:28). These elders continually fall down before God in worship, adoration and praise…11

    By the four living creatures and the elders is signified the fact that from angels and men has been formed a single flesh and a single Church through Christ God Who has joined together what was separate and has destroyed the middle wall of separation. And so, together with the four living creatures who surpass the other orders of angels, the elders also, who signify the fullness of those being saved, are worthy of the song and worship of God. May we also be vouchsafed this in Christ Himself the Giver of peace and our God, with Whom together with the Father and the Holy Spirit, may there be glory, dominion, honor, now and ever and unto the unending ages. Amen.12

    The nearness of the saints to the Throne of the Lamb and the raising up by them of prayers for the Church on earth are depicted in the Apocalypse of St. John the Theologian: "And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the Throne, and the beasts, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, who praised the Lord” (Apoc. 5:11)."13


    2nd century Christian writer Clement of Alexandria understood the twenty four elders as symbolic of the righteous in heaven who sit down and judge the people.

    Those, then, also now, who have exercised themselves in the Lord's commandments, and lived perfectly and gnostically according to the Gospel, may be enrolled in the chosen body of the apostles. Such an one is in reality a presbyter of the Church, and a true minister (deacon) of the will of God, if he do and teach what is the Lord's; not as being ordained by men, nor regarded righteous because a presbyter, but enrolled in the presbyterate because righteous. And although here upon earth he be not honoured with the chief seat, he will sit down on the four-and-twenty thrones, judging the people, as John says in the Apocalypse.’14


    The offering of the “prayers of the saints” on earth by the twenty-four elders is interpreted thusly in the Orthodox Study Bible:

    …the glorified saints of all ages represented by the twenty-four elders, worship Jesus, thus recognizing His deity. And they present the prayers of the saints still on earth, manifested in the incense, to God.15


    The verses in the Book of Revelation about the twenty-four elders are significant on two accounts: First, they are an example from a portion of Sacred Scripture that is accepted by all Christian groups as canonical (since other Christian groups do not accept the Deutero-canonical books), which depicts the saints in heaven interceding for the saints on earth by offering the latter’s prayers. Second, the fact that the Scripture provides us with an example of the saints in heaven offering the prayers of the saints on earth refutes the allegation that the saints in heaven cannot hear the prayers of the saints on earth. If the saints in heaven cannot hear the prayers of the saints on earth, then how is it that they offer the prayers of those saints on earth?16


    St. John is having a heavenly vision of various entities around the throne of God. Around this throne are gathered 4 beasts and 24 elders. In the midst of these beings stood the Lamb of God. These beings verily fall down before the Lamb, worshipping the Lamb with harps and censers full of incense. The incense that these beings offer is described as the "prayers of the saints." The “prayers of the saints” that are offered by the 4 living creatures and 24 elders are those of the “saints” who are living in the earthly existence—that is the Church “militant.” For we see a parallel to this in Revelation, chapter 8. Thus, the 24 elders are offering to God (as incense) the prayers of their brothers and sisters on earth. The 4 living creatures (whom Orthodox Tradition says symbolize the orders of angels) also offer the “prayers of the saints” (that is, the “saints” on earth). Revelation 8 clarifies this even further as to how the heavenly beings are offering our prayers to God.

    And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.17


    This angel takes our prayers on earth ("the prayers of the saints") and mingles them with his own offering/prayer to God. This is a clear witness of the early Church’s belief that angels and departed saints intercede for us, much in the same way that we are to "intercede" for each other here-and-now (1 Timothy 2:1-3)

    The Fathers of the Church give ample testimony to the Church’s unbroken and consistent belief that the angels and saints in heaven intercede for the saints on earth.

    Now these things (Ignatius' martyrdom) took place on the 13th day before the Kalends of January, that is, on the 20th of December,...Having ourselves been eye-witnesses of these things, and having spent the whole night in tears within the house, and having entreated the Lord, with bended knees and much prayer, that He would give us weak men full assurance respecting the things which were done, it came to pass on our falling into a brief slumber, that some of us saw the blessed Ignatius suddenly standing by us and embracing us, while others beheld him again praying for us, and others still saw him dropping with sweat, as if he had just come from his great labor, and standing by the Lord. When therefore, we had with great joy witnessed these things, and had compared our several visions together, we sang praise to God, the giver of all good things, and expressed our sense of the happiness of the holy martyr; and now we have made known to you both the day and the time when these things happened, that, assembling ourselves together according to the time of his martyrdom, we may have fellowship with the champion and noble martyr of Christ, who trod under foot the devil, and perfected the course which out of love for Christ, he had desired in Christ...18

    [The Shepherd said:] 'But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask Him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from Him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from Him?'19

    In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer].20

    But these pray along with those who genuinely pray—not only the high priest but also the angels who ‘rejoice in heaven over one repenting sinner more than over ninety-nine righteous that need not repentance,’ and also the souls of the saints already at rest. Two instances make this plain. The first is where Raphael offers their service to God for Tobit and Sarah. After both had prayed, the scripture says, ‘The prayer of both was heard before the presence of the great Raphael and he was sent to heal them both,’ and Raphael himself, when explaining his angelic commission at God's command to help them, says: ‘Even now when you prayed, and Sarah your daughter-in-law, I brought the memorial of your prayer before the Holy One,’ and shortly after, ‘I am Raphael, one of the Seven angels who present the prayers of saints and enter in before the glory of the Holy One.’ Thus, according to Raphael's account at least, prayer with fasting and almsgiving and righteousness is a good thing. The second instance is in the Books of the Maccabees where Jeremiah appears in exceeding ‘white haired glory’ so that a wondrous and most majestic authority was about him, and stretches forth his right hand and delivers to Judas a golden sword, and there witnesses to him another saint already at rest…’This is he who prays much for the people and the sacred city, God's prophet Jeremiah.’21

    Let us on both sides pray for one another. Let us relieve the burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if any one of us by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first{get martyred}, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father's mercy.22

    Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition23

    Yes, I am well assured that [my father's] intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay that obscured it, and holds conversation naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest mind.24

    For it is, it is possible for him who comes hither with faith to gather the fruit of many good things. For not the bodies only, but the very sepulchers of the saints have been filled with spiritual grace. For if in the case of Elisha this happened, and a corpse when it touched the sepulcher, burst the bands of death and returned to life again, much rather now, when grace is more abundant, when the energy of the spirit is greater, is it possible that one touching a sepulcher, with faith, should win great power; thence on this account God allowed us the remains of the saints, wishing to lead by them us to the same emulation, and to afford us a kind of haven, and a secure consolation for the evils which are ever overtaking us. Wherefore I beseech you all, if any is in despondency, if in disease, if under insult, if in any other circumstance of this life, if in the depth of sins, let him come hither with faith, and he will lay aside all those things, and will return with much joy, having procured a lighter conscience from the sight alone. But more, it is not only necessary that those who are in affliction should come hither, but if any one be in cheerfulness, in glory, in power, in much assurance towards God, let not this man despise the benefit. For coming hither and beholding this saint, he will keep these noble possessions unmoved, persuading his own soul to be moderate by the recollection of this man's mighty deeds, and not suffering his conscience by the mighty deeds to be lifted up to any self-conceit. And it is no slight thing for those in prosperity not to be puffed up at their good fortune, but to know how to bear their prosperity with moderation, so that the treasure is serviceable to all, the resting place is suitable, for the fallen, in order that they may escape from their temptations, for the fortunate, that their success may remain secure, for those in weakness indeed, that they may return to health, and for the healthy, that they may not fall into weakness. Considering all which things, let us prefer this way of spending our time, to all delight, all pleasure, in order that rejoicing at once, and profiling, we may be able to become partakers with these saints, both of their dwelling and of their home, through the prayers of the saints themselves, through the grace and lovingkindness of our Lord Jesus Christ, with whom be glory to the Father with the Holy Spirit, now and always forever and ever amen.25

    For on these very grounds we do not commemorate them at the table in the same way, as we do others who now rest in peace, as that we should also pray for them, but rather that they should do so for us, that we may cleave to their footsteps; because they have actually attained that fullness of love, than which, our Lord hath told us, there cannot be a greater.26

    It is true that Christians pay religious honor to the memory of the martyrs, both to excite us to imitate them, and to obtain a share in their merits, and the assistance of their prayers.27

    You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard…But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?28

    Let us rejoice, then, dearly beloved, with spiritual joy, and make our boast over the happy end of this illustrious man in the Lord [the martyr Laurentius]…By his prayer and intercession we trust at all times to be assisted29

    The Orthodox belief that the angels and departed saints intercede for those on earth is in keeping with the ancient teaching of God’s people as witnessed by the apocryphal, the Scriptural and the Patristic writings. It only makes sense that if the saints on earth are commanded by Scripture to intercede for others on earth, then it only follows that this activity should not cease when they leave the tabernacle of their flesh and stand in the presence of God. If we, as Scripture says, have been made priests in Christ’s Kingdom, and we are sharers in His Royal Priesthood, then it only seems to follow that we should exercise this priesthood by offering:

    …supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men.30

    Despite the Church’s ancient Tradition, the teaching of Scripture, and in view of its reaction to 16th century Roman Catholicism, the Protestant Reformation was divided on this issue of the saints’ intercession.31
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    Orthodox and Roman Catholics do not worship angels. They do ask for their assistance. Praying to and worshiping are two different things.
    Daughter of Israel,
    Glory of all people.
    Immaculate Maiden,
    Joy of God.
    Jesus has given you for our Mother.
    You are our Queen,
    pure and sinless.
    We entrust ourselves to you.
    Immaculate Mary.
    Faithful one.
    http://www.catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?p=558


    Worship - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WorshipWikipedia


    Worship is an act of religious devotion usually directed towards a deity.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    Daughter of Israel,
    Glory of all people.
    Immaculate Maiden,
    Joy of God.
    Jesus has given you for our Mother.
    You are our Queen,
    pure and sinless.
    We entrust ourselves to you.
    Immaculate Mary.
    Faithful one.
    http://www.catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?p=558
    There is a difference between respect/veneration/adoration/latria and worship/dulia. What you have posted above is not dulia/worship, it is latria/adoration. It may seem not so to your eye, but to a practicing Orthodox it is quite clear. I love, adore, venerate, respect my mother as the queen of my life, the one I entrust myself to and glorify and love, the one who gave me life in the world and cared for me. But I do not worship her as the Uncreated Creator of the universe and my God.
    Last edited by TER; 08-16-2014 at 09:40 AM.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  25. #22

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    Savages...
    ^THAT^
    FLIP THOSE FLAGS, THE NATION IS IN DISTRESS!


    why I should worship the state (who apparently is the only party that can possess guns without question).
    The state's only purpose is to kill and control. Why do you worship it? - Sola_Fide

    Baptiste said.
    At which point will Americans realize that creating an unaccountable institution that is able to pass its liability on to tax-payers is immoral and attracts sociopaths?

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    There is a difference between respect/veneration/adoration/latria and worship/dulia.
    "King of Kings" is dulia

    "You are the Queen" is latria

    Mkay to each his own; religion is mercurially quaint.

    Just don't bludgeon your women and bury them with dog bones and we can be cool.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...




  28. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    It is a huge error if you pray to demons. Praying to angels, asking for their assistance, is both beneficial and Scriptural.
    With all due respect. Prayer to any but God is error.
    angels are servants, They are not deities.

    The disciples asked how to pray,, and were answered by Jesus.(Luke 11)

    Prayer is directed to the Father. To God alone. The servants carry out his orders,,
    Last edited by pcosmar; 08-16-2014 at 12:09 PM.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  30. #26
    Perhaps we have a different definition of what prayer is. Prayer also means to ask or request.

    BTW, did you read the article I posted above? Asking for the assistance of angels and saints (in other words, praying to them) is biblical and has been the apostolic Christian faith since the beginning. Praying to someone does not mean that you are worshiping them. That is a common misunderstanding unfortunately for Christians in the west.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  31. #27

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    Perhaps we have a different definition of what prayer is. Prayer also means to ask or request.

    BTW, did you read the article I posted above? Asking for the assistance of angels and saints (in other words, praying to them) is biblical and has been the apostolic Christian faith since the beginning. Praying to someone does not mean that you are worshiping them. That is a common misunderstanding unfortunately for Christians in the west.
    I am sure misunderstanding is common.

    But to which of the angels has He ever said, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET "? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?
    They are servants,, I do not make request of servants. You give commands to servants.

    And Jesus answered saying to them, "Have faith in God. "Truly I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says is going to happen, it will be granted him
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    I am sure misunderstanding is common.



    They are servants,, I do not make request of servants. You give commands to servants.
    I think TER put it poorly. We do not pray to saints or angels. We pray for their intercessions. The saints are our spiritual ancestors who offer us wisdom and guidance. Prayer is reserved for God (that is the triune god-father, son, holy spirit) alone. Heterodox denominations and individuals tend to pray for God's intercessions as well, which isn't far removed from the Orthodox way.

    Also, this:
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    Perhaps we have a different definition of what prayer is. Prayer also means to ask or request.

    BTW, did you read the article I posted above? Asking for the assistance of angels and saints (in other words, praying to them) is biblical and has been the apostolic Christian faith since the beginning. Praying to someone does not mean that you are worshiping them. That is a common misunderstanding unfortunately for Christians in the west.
    Last edited by heavenlyboy34; 10-24-2014 at 07:40 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  34. #30
    So let me get this straight. We need to go back into Iraq to protect the Yazidis from being killed by ISIS for not converting when ISIS allows the Yazidis to kill each other for converting?

    http://clashdaily.com/2014/07/letter-saddam-miss-yet/

    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.



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