Measured In Gold, The Story Of American Wages Is An Ugly One

[PRB]

LMAO -- are Point Of Sale techs in high or low demand, particularly given the recent Microsoft decision to stop supporting Windows XP?

There aren't enough techs to go around. We are in extraordinary demand. but the pay is still horribly low.

Do what liberals do, unionize and bargain.

If you were willing to starve a month or two, maybe you'd be able to hold businesses and their POS systems hostage and get more out of them.

BECAUSE THE MARKET IS JACKED which is the whole point you seem oblivious to. Sure I could hold out for better money.

How is the market jacked? More people can bid, more people are willing to work.

The pay is low because you accept it, because you have expenses and can't afford to wait, how is that your employer's problem?

I can keep holding out until I am homeless and living under a bridge, while kids who don't even know which end of a 66 block punchdown tool to use keep sucking up the contracts.

there you go. you have needs which these kids don't. These kids can take your contracts while you go homeless. THAT is what is lovely about a market, that kids who don't need what you need can take your opportunities, THAT is what makes life today better.

so what do we do? ban kids from bidding? regulate by licensing quality of work? how do we protect your paycheck without using government? (for the record, I have no intention of protecting your paycheck, I love the fact people are paying less for work and more people can compete with you, but I still want to hear your genius idea)

[GunnyFreedom]

Do what liberals do, unionize and bargain.

If you were willing to starve a month or two, maybe you'd be able to hold businesses and their POS systems hostage and get more out of them.



How is the market jacked? More people can bid, more people are willing to work.

The pay is low because you accept it, because you have expenses and can't afford to wait, how is that your employer's problem?



there you go. you have needs which these kids don't. These kids can take your contracts while you go homeless. THAT is what is lovely about a market, that kids who don't need what you need can take your opportunities, THAT is what makes life today better.

so what do we do? ban kids from bidding? regulate by licensing quality of work? how do we protect your paycheck without using government? (for the record, I have no intention of protecting your paycheck, I love the fact people are paying less for work and more people can compete with you, but I still want to hear your genius idea)

Yes, because in PRB's little world, this:



is the same as this:

[PRB]

Yes, because in PRB's little world, this:



is the same as this:

no, they're not the same.

but that doesn't mean the bottom one is always worth the price difference. I'll believe you that it is, but it's on you to convince your buyers/employers.

[GunnyFreedom]

You don't get it. The market is broken. bro•ken. That's why people are suffering. That's why people who are doing crap work are getting more than people who do good work.

I love the free market. we do not have a free market in the US.

if we had a free market i would be doing great.

if we had a free market i sure as hell wouldn't be doing michelangelo work for mickey mouse pay.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

You guys are wasting your time with PRB. I'm sure you know that his sole purpose on this board is trolling.

You are also debating with someone who once told me that global warming would influence his decision to locate his residence on a river.

[PRB]

You guys are wasting your time with PRB. I'm sure you know that his sole purpose on this board is trolling.

You are also debating with someone who once told me that global warming would influence his decision to locate his residence on a river.

because i'm not allowed to make mistakes, right?

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

no, they're not the same.

but that doesn't mean the bottom one is always worth the price difference. I'll believe you that it is,...

You guys are debating with someone who needs to consult his college textbook for answers. You guys are debating someone who does not know the difference between technology development and construction processes.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

because i'm not allowed to make mistakes, right?

People who make mistakes generally listen and learn, not run their mouth and troll.

[PRB]

You don't get it. The market is broken. bro•ken. That's why people are suffering. That's why people who are doing crap work are getting more than people who do good work.

How are they "getting more"? they get more by winning more work, meaning they only get what they worked for, and they're paid less per hour. unless you're telling me the government is subsidizing them.

I love the free market. we do not have a free market in the US.

if we had a free market i would be doing great.

What part of this bidding process is "unfree"? How would a free-er market make your life better? I am genuinely curious

1. crappy people with crappy work will still be allowed to bid
2. your living expenses may be lower, but so would everybody else's so everybody would be bidding lower, and getting less
3. are you counting on there to be less desperate people competing with you?

if we had a free market i sure as hell wouldn't be doing michelangelo work for mickey mouse pay.

how would you force people to pay michelangelo pay?

short of forcing mickey mouse out of work?

[PRB]

You guys are debating with someone who needs to consult his college textbook for answers. You guys are debating someone who does not know the difference between technology development and construction processes.

what do you consult?

why do you say I don't know the difference between technological development and construction processes?

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

what do you consult?

why do you say I don't know the difference between technological development and construction processes?

I'm not consulting my college textbook.

You're just running your mouth. Somebody gave you the example of Lionel Trains. You either know about the construction and detail of that product because you've handled it, or--nowadays--you can easily find out on the internet.

You sound like some 22 year old college kid who lives at home. No problem with that because you grew up in a different world. Instead of however, running your mouth because you're trying to win some political argument on a forum--you might actually learn something from the people here.

[GunnyFreedom]

Companies are getting squeezed by the government, so they cut somewhere. They cut on overhead. Court required that shocking word of cost and they want overhead cost but because they're getting squeeze by the government. Compliance costs leave companies to pay more for legal overhead than operational overhead.

you can keep trying to rationalize why broken and regulated market is free all day long, but you will still be wrong. You can keep rationalizing why is it okay for people suffering and degrading in their quality of life while doing more and better work all day long but you will still be wrong. The definition of free-market economics, is not getting less money for more and better work.

Your philosophy seems more at home with Stalin than Hayek.

[KingNothing]

You and I are the only 2 people on this board that believe this, we must be wrong.

According to everybody else, standard of life has been lowered.

Anyone who thinks the standard of living today is lower than it was generations ago is an idiot.

Rather than choosing two arbitrary years as end points and comparing the value of the dollar to the value of gold at those points, we need a far more rigorous analysis to come to any conclusions. Comparing the value of the dollar over a period of time using a variety of different CPI measures would be a start, as would comparing the value of the dollar to the value of other currencies or baskets of currencies.

I don't think anyone here approves of a reckless monetary policy. I think that everyone here, in general, would like to see less monetary expansion from the Fed and less fiscal debt from the government. It's enough to say that these things absolutely benefit those who receive the newly printed dollars first. Just end it at that. We don't need to make bombastic, specious claims about how terrible life is now because, by and large, life is a whole helluvalot better than it ever has been.

[KingNothing]

I'm a senior engineer. I have a really hard time believing that an unskilled laborer at any point in human history could afford a house as nice as mine, a nice car, good health insurance, cable, internet, cell phones, dining out as frequently as one could want, etc., etc. I have a strong disagreement with that argument as it was presented.

[GunnyFreedom]

When an increase in demand with a shortage of qualified labor leads to lower costs, the market is broken. What part of that do you not understand?

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Anyone who thinks the standard of living today is lower than it was generations ago is an idiot.

I have a really hard time believing that an unskilled laborer at any point in human history could afford a house as nice as mine, a nice car, good health insurance, cable, internet, cell phones, dining out as frequently as one could want, etc., etc.

I fail to see how things like cable TV and Applebees represent a better standard of living, but maybe I'm just an idiot.

[GunnyFreedom]

I fail to see how things like cable TV and Applebees represent a better standard of living, but maybe I'm just an idiot.

Obviously, the 5% who are doing better today than a few decades ago, weigh more than the 95% who are not.

[PRB]

When an increase in demand with a shortage of qualified labor leads to lower costs,

I don't think I buy this claim as fact. increase in demand didn't LEAD to lower costs. Lower costs are thanks to unqualified people bidding against qualified people, as you showed clearly.

You complained about crappy people taking your opportunities, but not giving people the quality work you can give. So how exactly are you going to fix this in a free market? Ban them from bidding?

If it were the case that all your competition is just as qualified as you, and worked the same quality, just cheaper, it would not be a net increase in demand, would it?

[PRB]

Obviously, the 5% who are doing better today than a few decades ago, weigh more than the 95% who are not.

tell that to gays who couldn't get married, blacks who couldn't eat and drink with whites. Life was better when restaurants were allowed to turn people away for whatever retarded reason they thought, we had LESS government, and people's lives were BETTER.

[PRB]

I fail to see how things like cable TV and Applebees represent a better standard of living, but maybe I'm just an idiot.

so tell us what IS a representation of a standard of living.

No, you're not an idiot, we can differ on our standards, I just want to understand what yours is. I will get back to the Lionel train thing in next post.

[PRB]

You're just running your mouth. Somebody gave you the example of Lionel Trains. You either know about the construction and detail of that product because you've handled it, or--nowadays--you can easily find out on the internet.

I know nothing about Lionel trains. So tell me.

Oh, I get it now. If I listen, I'm playing dumb. If I consult a source, do my "research" in places you don't approve, you laugh at me.

If I don't listen, I'm a troll. The only way to avoid getting bashed is to agree with you, right?

[PRB]

I'm a senior engineer. I have a really hard time believing that an unskilled laborer at any point in human history could afford a house as nice as mine, a nice car, good health insurance, cable, internet, cell phones, dining out as frequently as one could want, etc., etc. I have a strong disagreement with that argument as it was presented.

you don't dare call the article writer a LIAR, do you????

[PRB]

I don't think anyone here approves of a reckless monetary policy. I think that everyone here, in general, would like to see less monetary expansion from the Fed and less fiscal debt from the government. It's enough to say that these things absolutely benefit those who receive the newly printed dollars first. Just end it at that. We don't need to make bombastic, specious claims about how terrible life is now because, by and large, life is a whole helluvalot better than it ever has been.

you mean to tell me we can appreciate how better life has become, and STILL hate the government and Federal Reserve?

What a relief! For a minute I thought I had to be full on on board with blaming everything on government policy and monetary policy, or else I'm a troll and I want to expand government.

[PRB]

I'm a senior engineer. I have a really hard time believing that an unskilled laborer at any point in human history could afford a house as nice as mine, a nice car, good health insurance, cable, internet, cell phones, dining out as frequently as one could want, etc., etc. I have a strong disagreement with that argument as it was presented.

the key fallacy is right there, you hit it spot on.

why is it assumed minimum wage was minimum skill? is it possible engineers in the past were paid minimum wage, and the rest were just flat out unemployed or working under table?

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

blacks who couldn't eat and drink with whites. Life was better when restaurants were allowed to turn people away for whatever retarded reason they thought, we had LESS government, and people's lives were BETTER.

Walk around a city like Memphis some time and really dig into the history. Not just Beale St. either, but really look into it. Talk with the old timers. Talk with some serious scholars informally about life in the past. There were a lot of pluses to having a tight knit community. Eating in your own restaurant or dancing at your own club was not the 100% gloom as portrayed today. It is the same with any community. My grandparents were immigrants and I saw the tradeoffs.

Not getting lynched is obviously better getting lynched, but I'm not talking about a cable TV discussion. Go beyond the admirable gumption of those black guys sitting at the Greensboro lunch counter. The blacks opposed to that refused to give their business to someone who hated them. Desegregation accomplished some outstanding things, but some things were also lost. There's a reason those very old remnants manifest themselves in today's ethnic hair products or TV based on race.

so tell us what IS a representation of a standard of living.

It ain't canned green beans at Ruby Tuesday.

I know nothing about Lionel trains. So tell me.

I just told you. Are you even familiar with Lionel?

Oh, I get it now. If I listen, I'm playing dumb. If I consult a source, do my "research" in places you don't approve, you laugh at me.

If I don't listen, I'm a troll. The only way to avoid getting bashed is to agree with you, right?

No, you're just a troll in all scenarios. You just play dumb when I bust you.

Did you get that?

[PRB]

Walk around a city like Memphis some time and really dig into the history. Not just Beale St. either, but really look into it. Talk with the old timers. Talk with some serious scholars informally about life in the past. There were a lot of pluses to having a tight knit community. Eating in your own restaurant or dancing at your own club was not the 100% gloom as portrayed today. It is the same with any community. My grandparents were immigrants and I saw the tradeoffs.

I'm sure it wasn't 100% gloom. but isn't that just saying life was better when there was less people?? I'm not saying I won't listen to stories, but if that's the sum of the argument, I'll take it (I'd love to take more too)

Not getting lynched is obviously better getting lynched, but I'm not talking about a cable TV discussion. Go beyond the admirable gumption of those black guys sitting at the Greensboro lunch counter. The blacks opposed to that refused to give their business to someone who hated them. Desegregation accomplished some outstanding things, but some things were also lost.

Thank you. So, on balance, do you think blacks are better off today than during segregation? Or, what do you think is an important thing lost that was better for blacks? Just specifically, can you give me a few examples of how blacks were better off during slavery or during segregation? I'm honestly curious.

[PRB]

It ain't canned green beans at Ruby Tuesday.

So...quality of food, smaller communities?

Those are not bad things to have, but I don't think they're completely gone today, or harder to obtain. they still exist if you want them.

So I don't think it's fair to say that life is worse today because a few things in the past are allegedly not accessible.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Just specifically, can you give me a few examples of how blacks were better off during slavery or during segregation? I'm honestly curious.

No, you're not. I just gave you an example in my very text that you quoted. This is what makes you a troll.

[PRB]

No, you're not. I just gave you an example in my very text that you quoted. This is what makes you a troll.

The blacks opposed to that refused to give their business to someone who hated them.

Blacks can STILL do that today. So it's not lost.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

The blacks opposed to that refused to give their business to someone who hated them.

Blacks can STILL do that today. So it's not lost.

Not so much. These items are a tradeoff and a matter of degree, not an either/or proposition. The assimilation of the melting pot is a tradeoff with ethnic identity.

I'll take today's car for reliable transportation, but there are tradeoffs from yesteryear's car. The convenience of dining out is a tradeoff with quality food. The many choices on cable TV means lower quality talent. More security means less freedom. More government intervention means less private choice.

Pick what you like in life. Pick your poison. You don't get everything you want in this world. Not even when your government gets involved.