Measured In Gold, The Story Of American Wages Is An Ugly One

[PRB]

Are we serious? Unadjusted, measured in anything called 'dollar' at the time? Are you serious?

Yeah, I'm serious, seeing if you're counting booms & busts. While I'm ignorant of other dynamics in a small city of less than 5000 people.

Yet you spend all your time preaching propaganda rather than listening.

I do listen

Are we discussing the apples of particular cities or the oranges of the nation as a whole?

We can discuss either/both, just label what it is you're talking about.

My claim from then to now has been, population density affects prices. Population density is another way of expressing demand, assuming supply is constant.
Consumption habits change too, so people in 1965 who "demanded" vinyl record players are not the same as those who demand them today.

Compare Detroit to Los Angeles or Dallas, population density plays a noticeable role in cost of living.
Compare US in 1965 to 2011, population density has overall increased.

What's the easiest predictors of whether cost of housing and rent will go up or down in a city or county?
-salaries
-loans
-population

So we have taken every power tool from the locomotive to the electric toothbrush out of their respective categories and lumped them all in the 'energy' category.

Yeah, we call it industrial and consumer energy consumption, don't we??

Well, if that doesn't eliminate the rising cost of energy, nothing will.

[acptulsa]

PRB every attempt you make to break prices down to a micromismanageable level, like your attempt to define flashlights and electric fans as 'energy', is an attempt to hijack this thread. And I'm done playing.

The mean standard of living is nearly down to Great Depression levels. If the hobos weren't able to surf the 'net on their Obamaphones while huddled in the cold wind and rain, it would be down to that level. Maybe. After all, most men who were working in the 1930s could support the whole family on one wage. And some of those homeless of yore got to listen to Woody Guthrie live in concert. That's something you can't buy at any price today...

[PRB]

PRB every attempt you make to break prices down to a micromismanageable level, like your attempt to define flashlights and electric fans as 'energy', is an attempt to hijack this thread. And I'm done playing.

Except I didn't say battery appliances. I was talking about residential use of solar energy, and industrial use of it....really, what is your problem with that? what do YOU call energy and why do you say it's gone up?

The mean standard of living is nearly down to Great Depression levels.

Seriously, by what standard are you measuring that?

What is your definition of "standard of living"?

If the hobos weren't able to surf the 'net on their Obamaphones while huddled in the cold wind and rain, it would be down to that level. Maybe. After all, some of those homeless of yore got to listen to Woody Guthrie live in concert. That's something you can't buy at any price today...

There's a lot of dead artists and great musicians in the past, they're gone forever for purpose of seeing them live.

[PRB]

After all, most men who were working in the 1930s could support the whole family on one wage.

Let's talk about that.

1. What kind of jobs were available
2. If one person employed can support a family, that's basically saying less people employed is a good thing. Did I get that right?
3. What exactly what "support a whole family"? Did the family have computers? Water guns? band t-shirts? concert tickets? how many cars did this family have? a TV in every room? Internet access? were 7-11s open 24/7? Could you drive through if you didn't have time to cook? Oh, you mean you were never too busy to cook?

I want to know what this family had, so I can understand what you mean by "support a family".

Because as far as I know most adults working today, can also "support a family", as long as you don't need more than 1 car per family, kids only buy new clothes once a year or less, cellphones, computers, pets, TV in every room, video recorder/DVR...etc.

[acptulsa]

I try to tell you I'm not interested in helping you jack this thread and you try to start a discussion about whether or not all night convenience stores make our standard of living measurably better?

Really?

How about I go back to the topic at hand with an old chestnut of mine instead?

I think what the newcomer to this discussion has the most trouble understanding is the dollar is not a dollar--it's a nickel.

What do I mean? Well, my old man got out of the Army Air Corps after WWII and got himself a good job paying a dollar an hour. How is that a good job? Easy--it was 1946 and the dollar was still a dollar. As in, when he wanted a Pepsi he paid a nickel for it--now it costs a dollar. When he wanted to ride a bus, he put seven cents in the meter, or a nickel and a half--now it costs a buck and a half. When he wanted to sit down and have a cup of regular old coffee, he paid a dime, or two nickels--now it costs two bucks. When he put gas in the car (it was always cheap in Oklahoma), he paid 14.9 cents per gallon, or three nickles--now it costs three bucks. When he was hungry for lunch, he bought a deluxe double hamburger with all the trimmings for a silver quarter, or five nickles--now it costs five bucks. When he wanted to go to a movie, he paid thirty-five cents or seven nickles--now it costs seven bucks. And when he shopped for a new top of the line Dodge Custom with heater and radio and other options, it would set him back two grand, or forty thousand nickles--now it costs forty thousand dollars.

The Pepsi isn't any wetter, the gas doesn't burn any brighter, the double burger isn't any more filling, and the movie doesn't last any longer today (with no newsreel, serial and cartoon, it actually doesn't last as long). So, there's only one explanation. The dollar is no longer worth a dollar. The dollar is worth a nickel. Period.

Why do you think all the five and ten cent stores have been replaced with dollar stores?

[PRB]

I try to tell you I'm not interested in helping you jack this thread and you try to start a discussion about whether or not all night convenience stores make our standard of living measurably better?

Again, I gave you reasons why I believe standard of living is getting both better and cheaper, not even counting the fact that minorities have more rights today.

You can disagree, but I am not aware of what you use as your standard.

[acptulsa]

Again, I gave you reasons why I believe standard of living is getting both better and cheaper, not even counting the fact that minorities have more rights today.

You can disagree, but I am not aware of what you use as your standard.

You underestimate how much Lionel trains really cost--and how cool they were.

You also overestimate how much being able to buy a 44 oz. Slurpee at two a.m. has enriched our civilization.

[PRB]

You underestimate how much Lionel trains really cost--and how cool they were.

You also overestimate how much being able to buy a 44 oz. Slurpee at two a.m. has enriched our civilization.

how about we forget about how wrong I am, and just tell me how right you are in using YOUR measure of standard of living, PLEASE.

I'm willing to be corrected, I don't disagree with the fact that dollar has depreciated, while you can't deny that salaries increased also.

You said a "good paying job" used to pay a dollar, and I say a "good paying job" today is anything above $12 an hour, but $20 or more isn't impossible.

So, what is it about Lionel trains? Tell me.

[ClydeCoulter]

If the price of gold reflects true inflation, prices have fallen by about 31% (and based on the premise in the OP wages have risen by 31% as well) since 2011 (when it peaked at $1900 an ounce). They also fell by 70% between 1980 and 2002.

But here is an inflation adjusted gold chart: http://inflationdata.com/inflation/i...tion_chart.htm

Inflation adjusted for 2013 dollars? (the chart) Are you kidding?

[Zippyjuan]

Inflation adjusted for 2013 dollars? (the chart) Are you kidding?

Yes- 2013 was when the chart was created so sure they used 2013 dollars for the "adjusted for inflation" portion (red line). What year's dollars should they use (it won't change the shape of the graph)? The nominal prices (blue line) is priced in the dollars of the year the price is given for.

[Zippyjuan]

Yay! I'm getting tag teamed!

Yo, Z2.0. I, for one, already mentioned that gold is as liable to fluctuate as any other commodity. Hell, it doesn't have to be a commodity to fluctuate. Even something as ephemeral and lacking in solidity as the images of Peanuts comic characters--or worse, the FRN--is liable to wax and wane. Gold is as worthless for judging this from one specific year to another as the price of gas. But the value of the FRN is useless to gauge anything long or short term--except the degree to which we have all been victimized.

Are we capable of breaking new ground? Are we capable of long term thinking? Are we even permitted to address the long term?

The fluctuations in the price of gold (or other commodities) makes it a poor choice to try to measure real wages with- my point exactly. Unless of course that gold or whatever commodity is the only thing you can buy with your money. Thank you for agreeing with me.

Real wages are what we can exchange our labor for- the goods and services we can acquire- not the numbers in a bank account or pieces of paper we trade for our labor and in turn to somebody else for those goods. Compared to 50 years ago, people today can (and have) accumulated many more things in exchange for their labor than they could back then.

[heavenlyboy34]

The fluctuations in the price of gold (or other commodities) makes it a poor choice to try to measure real wages with- my point exactly. Thank you for agreeing with me.

Real wages are what we can exchange our labor for- the goods and services we can acquire- not the numbers in a bank account or pieces of paper we trade for our labor and in turn to somebody else for those goods. Compared to 50 years ago, people today can (and have) accumulated many more things in exchange for their labor than they could back then.

I agree that this is a fairly good metric. The problem is that manufacturing quality is poorer in a LOT of goods than it was 50 or even 60 years ago. So, even though more things are affordable, they also have to be replaced, repaired, or updated more often-which is more expensive in the long run.

[PRB]

Compared to 50 years ago, people today can (and have) accumulated many more things in exchange for their labor than they could back then.

You and I are the only 2 people on this board that believe this, we must be wrong.

According to everybody else, standard of life has been lowered.

[PRB]

The problem is that manufacturing quality is poorer in a LOT of goods than it was 50 or even 60 years ago.

Can you give us some examples?

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Can you give us some examples?

An example was already given to you, but you played dumb about it. You have been doing that a lot lately. Your trolling is really suffering, PRB.

[GunnyFreedom]

I don't care what the naysayers say, I am working twice as hard and doing 4x as technically complex and expertise-requiring work as I was 20 years ago, and my own standard of living is about half of what it is then. Just because 3 or 4 of the people around here have not seen a similar phenomena affect them personally, does not mean that 80% of the country is not afflicted with it.

[acptulsa]

The fluctuations in the price of gold (or other commodities) makes it a poor choice to try to measure real wages with- my point exactly. Unless of course that gold or whatever commodity is the only thing you can buy with your money. Thank you for agreeing with me.

Nobody's agreeing with you, Z2.0

I said it wasn't always a valid way to compare specific years but it is perhaps the most accurate way to measure the long term trend. Now brag to your bosses how you agree with me--I dare you.

how about we forget about how wrong I am...

Too tall an order. Can't be done.

You said a "good paying job" used to pay a dollar, and I say a "good paying job" today is anything above $12 an hour, but $20 or more isn't impossible.

Maybe, but it isn't very damned likely, either.

So, what is it about Lionel trains? Tell me.

I used them to illustrate how you were attempting to obfuscate the issue, but I'm not going to use them to jack the thread.

You and I are the only 2 people on this board that believe this, we must be wrong.

You're exposing Z2.0's mendacity. He was just trying to convince people that he and I are in complete agreement. You two seem to be having trouble coordinating your trolling. You must work for different departments.

According to everybody else, standard of life has been lowered.

Just since 2000, even. And when we think of how much better it should have become with the kind of technological progress we've seen, we get really disgusted.

Can you give us some examples?

O.K. You're desperately trying to deflect the truth of this message and hijack this thread into the muck and mire of irrelevant minutiae right here.

Just because 3 or 4 of the people around here have not seen a similar phenomena affect them personally, does not mean that 80% of the country is not afflicted with it.

If they weren't affected by it, would they be here trying to make a pittance by arguing that electric trains should be measured for inflation purposes in the same category as gasoline and just generally making complete asses of themselves? Or would they not get real jobs if only there were some left?

[PRB]

An example was already given to you, but you played dumb about it. You have been doing that a lot lately. Your trolling is really suffering, PRB.

You meant cars? If so, I welcome the person to elaborate.

[PRB]

O.K. You're desperately trying to deflect the truth of this message and hijack this thread into the muck and mire of irrelevant minutiae right here.


If they weren't affected by it, would they be here trying to make a pittance by arguing that electric trains should be measured for inflation purposes in the same category as gasoline and just generally making complete asses of themselves? Or would they not get real jobs if only there were some left?

Asking you to provide examples to support your false claim is "deflecting the truth"???

You have yet to show why

1. Energy costs have gone up (not even why, you can't even show that it has!)
2. Standard of living decreased or lowered.

So, how about you actually explain why you are right, I'm listening. I'm asking you to defend your claim.

[PRB]

I don't care what the naysayers say, I am working twice as hard and doing 4x as technically complex and expertise-requiring work as I was 20 years ago

I'm listening.

What was the work you did 20 years ago vs today?

What is the quality of life decrease from 20 years ago to today?

, and my own standard of living is about half of what it is then. Just because 3 or 4 of the people around here have not seen a similar phenomena affect them personally, does not mean that 80% of the country is not afflicted with it.

I am willing to believe you are the norm and not the exception, but first I have to understand what you say is true, not just "I don't like my standard of living, therefore it's declined".

[GunnyFreedom]

I'm listening.

What was the work you did 20 years ago vs today?

What is the quality of life decrease from 20 years ago to today?



I am willing to believe you are the norm and not the exception, but first I have to understand what you say is true, not just "I don't like my standard of living, therefore it's declined".

I'm doing the exact same work: Self Employed Field Service Technician for Point of Sale
I am working more hours now than I was 20 years ago, 48hr a week now vs ~25-30 hr a week 20 years ago, and today's work is more physically demanding (and damaging) to my body.
20 years ago, I could afford to pay my mortgage, car note, and eat pretty decent. Today I am getting help from my family to pay my mortgage, my car is paid off but I can't afford anything more than liability, and I eat like crap.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

You meant cars? If so, I welcome the person to elaborate.

You're really slipping now.

[PRB]

I'm doing the exact same work: Self Employed Field Service Technician for Point of Sale

Pardon my ignorance, what do you do? Do you work with machines or computers?

I am working more hours now than I was 20 years ago, 48hr a week now vs ~25-30 hr a week 20 years ago, and today's work is more physically demanding (and damaging) to my body.

Are you working more hours because you're less replaceable ? Can you not take a pay cut in exchange for less hours worked?

20 years ago, I could afford to pay my mortgage, car note, and eat pretty decent.

Are you living in the same place? Could it just be the housing prices were too low 20 years ago?

Today I am getting help from my family to pay my mortgage, my car is paid off but I can't afford anything more than liability, and I eat like crap.

So 20 years ago, you had a mortgage, a car note, and you ate decent.
Today, is your mortgage bill the same? Car note is gone now. What would it cost differently to you today if you wanted to "eat decent" as you did 20 years ago? $100 a month? $500 a month? What other expenses do you have different than 20 years ago? Do you have MORE or LESS expenses?

20 years ago vs today, what was the annual salary difference? $10K? $20K? all the same?

[GunnyFreedom]

Pardon my ignorance, what do you do? Do you work with machines or computers?

Computers and mechanical and electronic devices and equipment.

Are you working more hours because you're less replaceable ? Can you not take a pay cut in exchange for less hours worked?

I am working more hours because people can't afford to live doing this work and drop out of the market. I am paid on a job/contract basis. Sure I would make less money if I took fewer jobs, but I can barely eat as it is, why in the hell would I do that?

Are you living in the same place? Could it just be the housing prices were too low 20 years ago?

Exact same house. The house was re-mortgaged to pay off my fathers doctor bills from when he died of AIDS.

So 20 years ago, you had a mortgage, a car note, and you ate decent.
Today, is your mortgage bill the same? Car note is gone now. What would it cost differently to you today if you wanted to "eat decent" as you did 20 years ago? $100 a month? $500 a month? What other expenses do you have different than 20 years ago? Do you have MORE or LESS expenses?

Everything is more expensive now. Food, gas, tools, materials.

20 years ago vs today, what was the annual salary difference? $10K? $20K? all the same?

20 years ago I was getting about average of $35k and paying ~15k in work expenses; today I am getting about average $40k and paying ~25k in work expenses. From my diminishing pool of money remaining after expenses, everything costs twice as much, therefore I used to be able to buy steak, today I feel lucky to get bologna.

[PRB]

Computers and mechanical and electronic devices and equipment.

I am working more hours because people can't afford to live doing this work and drop out of the market. I am paid on a job/contract basis. Sure I would make less money if I took fewer jobs, but I can barely eat as it is, why in the hell would I do that?

Does it sound like you're in demand, but you're not demanding more for your time?

Either you're in high demand or low demand. If you're in high demand, you can demand more. If you're in low demand, you're replaceable and you're likely to work more hours.

It's also possible YOU can't afford to live on this work, but choose to remain in it (therefore instead of finding a better job, you work more hours).

Exact same house. The house was re-mortgaged to pay off my fathers doctor bills from when he died of AIDS.

Everything is more expensive now. Food, gas, tools, materials.

Ok, thanks. This actually explains a lot. Had you not re-mortgaged your house, you might have it paid off by now, it's not your fault, but what happened to you doesn't happen to everybody.

20 years ago I was getting about average of $35k and paying ~15k in work expenses; today I am getting about average $40k and paying ~25k in work expenses. From my diminishing pool of money remaining after expenses, everything costs twice as much, therefore I used to be able to buy steak, today I feel lucky to get bologna.

If you're self employed, can't/don't you pass your expenses to the consumer?

As for why you're making less overall per hour, is it not because you're more replaceable?

And, is the fact that you're paid less per hour overall, not GOOD for consumers? I mean, if lower wages makes more people employed, and is good for consumers, good for competition, ...all that good stuff, then you wouldn't be an exception, would you?

Put simply, are people who employ you today BETTER off than 20 years ago because they're paying you LESS?

[acptulsa]

It's also possible YOU can't afford to live on this work, but choose to remain in it.

You did all that data mining for this?

Does your boss know he's paying you to emphasize the fact that you can be in a career, and the career can remain very much in demand (you might not know what point of sale technology maintenance is, but that doesn't leave you in any kind of a majority), yet you can go from being able to eat steak now and then to being lucky to eat meat now and then?

Because that's kind of our point here. For all your attempts to soft pedal that, or distract from that, or bury that in your attempt to play Trivial Pursuit with us, all you've done so far is prove our point.

I kind of feel like patting you on the head. Good troll. I'd give you a treat, if I could afford one.

[GunnyFreedom]

Does it sound like you're in demand, but you're not demanding more for your time?

Either you're in high demand or low demand. If you're in high demand, you can demand more. If you're in low demand, you're replaceable and you're likely to work more hours.

You clearly do not work in this field. There are so many people desperate for work that they depress the going rate in the market. They produce woefully inferior quality of work but because they are charging so little they get the contracts. Buyers have little or no connection to the field work, they do not know what field work is supposed to look like, and they do not have to go back and work behind crap techs so they don't care if (or even realize that) the jobs are massively f'd up. Buyers generally never spend a minute in the field in their lives. All they know is one guy charges $50/hr and another guy charges $20/hr, and the system (nominally) functions whichever tech they contract. Point of sale work is about a LOT more than nominal function.

It's also possible YOU can't afford to live on this work, but choose to remain in it (therefore instead of finding a better job, you work more hours).

I am extraordinarily good at computer networking and point of sale. I tried picking up political work, but Paul, Inc. prefers political operatives who have no clue about politics.

Ok, thanks. This actually explains a lot. Had you not re-mortgaged your house, you might have it paid off by now, it's not your fault, but what happened to you doesn't happen to everybody.

If you're self employed, can't/don't you pass your expenses to the consumer?

It is blatantly obvious that you have no clue how any of this works. Buyer publishes available contracts, and you either take them or starve.

As for why you're making less overall per hour, is it not because you're more replaceable?

Sure, a guy who makes a Stradivarius can be replaced by some dude who makes a tin fiddle.

And, is the fact that you're paid less per hour overall, not GOOD for consumers? I mean, if lower wages makes more people employed, and is good for consumers, good for competition, ...all that good stuff, then you wouldn't be an exception, would you?

Yes, because my only being able to afford ramen noodles makes everybody on the planet's life so much better.

Put simply, are people who employ you today BETTER off than 20 years ago because they're paying you LESS?

Sure, the people who run these companies are making 10x to 30x what they were making 20 years ago. I'm not sure why encouraging crap work is somehow good for consumers. POS systems have way more down time, mistakes, wrong orders, bad orders, waste, and more when they are shoddily put together. Repairing a POS system when the cabling is jacked up takes 2x to 4x more time leading to even more down time.

But as long as the CEO can buy another Ferarri who the fk cares if everybody else in the country gets screwed. lol

Dude you have serious problems.

[PRB]

You did all that data mining for this?

Dude, if he's going to tell me 'my example proves I am right because my life has gotten worse' of course I will mine him for details to believe him first, but if the conclusion is simple, it's simple, that doesn't mean his premise or complaint is right though.

Does your boss know he's paying you to emphasize the fact that you can be in a career, and the career can remain very much in demand

No. My boss pays me what I demand, if he can't afford it, too bad for him.

(you might not know what point of sale technology maintenance is, but that doesn't leave you in any kind of a majority), yet you can go from being able to eat steak now and then to being lucky to eat meat now and then?

I could eat a lot of steak if i didn't have to re-mortgage my house.

Because that's kind of our point here. For all your attempts to soft pedal that, or distract from that, or bury that in your attempt to play Trivial Pursuit with us, all you've done so far is prove our point.

How did I prove your point?

I kind of feel like patting you on the head. Good troll. I'd give you a treat, if I could afford one.

Not so fast, I have to first figure out if he's in high or low demand. If he's going to tell me his life has gotten worse, I'm not going to blame it all on government printing money unless I've eliminated all else.

[GunnyFreedom]

LMAO -- are Point Of Sale techs in high or low demand, particularly given the recent Microsoft decision to stop supporting Windows XP?

There aren't enough techs to go around. We are in extraordinary demand. but the pay is still horribly low. BECAUSE THE MARKET IS JACKED which is the whole point you seem oblivious to. Sure I could hold out for better money. I can keep holding out until I am homeless and living under a bridge, while kids who don't even know which end of a 66 block punchdown tool to use keep sucking up the contracts.

[PRB]

You clearly do not work in this field. There are so many people desperate for work that they depress the going rate in the market. They produce woefully inferior quality of work but because they are charging so little they get the contracts.

Indeed I do not. So there's lots of competition, that's your problem right there. 20 years ago you had a great life because less people were willing, able, and able to fake that they can do your work.

YAY for people who can now compete with you and you can cry about losing your pie. THAT is why life has gotten better for most people, because YOU are losing to people who possibly didn't even exist. But go ahead focus the argument on yourself, because like we all know, looking at the big picture is for socialists and it's the broken window fallacy.

Buyers have little or no connection to the field work, they do not know what field work is supposed to look like, and they do not have to go back and work behind crap techs so they don't care if (or even realize that) the jobs are massively f'd up. Buyers generally never spend a minute in the field in their lives. All they know is one guy charges $50/hr and another guy charges $20/hr, and the system (nominally) functions whichever tech they contract. Point of sale work is about a LOT more than nominal function.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but unless you're using POS systems attached to cashier drawers, while the world is becoming less and less cash oriented, POS systems are being replaced with iPad apps, smaller machines, requiring less repairs.

If this kind of work becoming less or more necessary? Will POS systems be easier to replace than repair?

I am extraordinarily good at computer networking and point of sale. I tried picking up political work, but Paul, Inc. prefers political operatives who have no clue about politics.

You're good at it, so you should demand more. But if people can outbid you, they're at an advantage, even if it's short term. Luckily we have rating systems like BBB, Yelp which good/bad workers are reviewed, hard work pays off in these ways.

It is blatantly obvious that you have no clue how any of this works. Buyer publishes available contracts, and you either take them or starve.

Yeah, that's the beauty of the free market. If people take them, they'll continue to publish low paying contracts, and people do, so if you don't, you are competed out. 20 years ago, less people were willing to work for less, today, more people are willing to work for less, win for consumer.

When I talk about passing expenses, I meant when you make bids, but like you said, somebody's willing to work for less, good luck telling people you do better work.

Sure, a guy who makes a Stradivarius can be replaced by some dude who makes a tin fiddle.

Yes, because my only being able to afford ramen noodles makes everybody on the planet's life so much better.

Not everybody, just many people who will have a higher chance of being employed, or have to pay less for the same work.

Sure, the people who run these companies are making 10x to 30x what they were making 20 years ago. I'm not sure why encouraging crap work is somehow good for consumers.

It's not that encouraging crap work is good, but encouraging low cost work is good. Low cost doesn't have to mean crap.

POS systems have way more down time, mistakes, wrong orders, bad orders, waste, and more when they are shoddily put together. Repairing a POS system when the cabling is jacked up takes 2x to 4x more time leading to even more down time.

Way more downtime compared to what? old systems which didn't allow you to be employed?

Cabling? Can that be solved eventually with encrypted wireless? or just better wires?

But as long as the CEO can buy another Ferarri who the fk cares if everybody else in the country gets screwed. lol

Dude you have serious problems.

You're sounding like a liberal now, complaining about the rich. By the way, buying Ferarri isn't breaking a window.