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Thread: Feds upset that technology is making it more difficult to spy on people

  1. #1

    Feds upset that technology is making it more difficult to spy on people

    Federal law enforcement and intelligence authorities say they are increasingly struggling to conduct court-ordered wiretaps [read: sham FISA "court"] on suspects because of a surge in chat services, instant messaging and other online communications that lack the technical means to be intercepted.

    A “large percentage” of wiretap orders to pick up the communications of suspected spies and foreign agents are not being fulfilled, FBI officials said. Law enforcement agents are citing the same challenge in criminal cases; agents, they say, often decline to even seek orders when they know firms lack the means to tap into a suspect’s communications in real time.

    “It’s a significant problem, and it’s continuing to get worse,” Amy S. Hess, executive assistant director of the FBI’s Science and Technology Branch, said in a recent interview.

    One former U.S. official said that each year “hundreds” of individualized wiretap orders for foreign intelligence are not being fully executed because of a growing gap between the government’s legal authority and its practical ability to capture communications — a problem that bureau officials have called “going dark.”

    Officials have expressed alarm for several years about the expansion of online communication services that — unlike traditional and cellular telephone communications — lack intercept capabilities because they are not required by law to build them in.

    But the proliferation of these services and a greater wariness — if not hostility — toward government agencies in the wake of revelations about broad National Security Agency surveillance have become a double whammy for law enforcement and intelligence agencies, according to FBI officials and others.

    Today, at least 4,000 companies in the United States provide some form of communication service, and a “significant portion” are not required by law to make sure their platforms are wiretap-ready, Hess said. Among the types of services that were unthinkable not long ago are photo-sharing services, which say they allow users to send photos that are automatically deleted, and peer-to-peer Internet phone calls, for which there are no practical means for interception.

    Meanwhile, the disclosures by former NSA contractor Edward Snowden have fostered a widespread view that the government is excessively sweeping up all manner of Americans’ communications. Founded or not, that impression, FBI officials argue, has unfairly extended to the investigations of law enforcement and intelligence agencies that obtain individual warrants to intercept the calls, chats and instant messages of suspected criminals and spies.
    cont.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...fc2_story.html



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  3. #2

  4. #3
    cry me a $#@!ing river.
    The ultimate minority is the individual. Protect the individual from Democracy and you will protect all groups of individuals
    Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual. - Thomas Jefferson
    I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

    - Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear

  5. #4
    I think if I found such a voyeur jacking off outside my window, while watching me change - well, I would probably try and catch the SOB, string them up by their balls from the nearest tree limb, cover their body in honey and kick the $#@! out of the nearest nest of fire ants...

    Jus sayin...

    -t

  6. #5
    Whenever the law enforcement wants to push for more police state and surveillance, it's always gift-wrapped in causes like catching pedophiles, child porn etc. Causes which no one dare say no to. But in reality, once the cops get the goodies they want, 1% of the time it's used against a pedophile or a rapist (someone who actually deserves it), and the other 99% it's used to crush innocent people.

  7. #6
    Mostly good but when it comes to p2p phone calls, there really needs to be some mechanism to trace calls when there is a reasonable basis of suspicion to do so (and when authorities already know who/what they are looking for)...just look up the phenomenon of "swatting" if you want to know why. People can cause chaos via prank calls these days, including having swat teams kick down doors, put families on the floor and arrest people who actually did nothing, without a warrant, because of an "anonymous tip." The story of the flashbang in the baby crib kinda exacerbates this point..
    Last edited by LibertyEsq; 07-29-2014 at 01:17 PM.

  8. #7
    It's only going to get worse for them as new protocols are created with their spying bull$#@! in mind.

    Thank you Edward Snowden for shining light on these rats.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by lib3rtarian View Post
    Whenever the law enforcement wants to push for more police state and surveillance, it's always gift-wrapped in causes like catching pedophiles, child porn etc. Causes which no one dare say no to. But in reality, once the cops get the goodies they want, 1% of the time it's used against a pedophile or a rapist (someone who actually deserves it), and the other 99% it's used to crush innocent people.
    You are off by 1%...

    Take for example the massive video surveillance and licence plate scanner network sold to the DC area public as a measure to recover stolen vehicles. Guess how many stolen cars have been recovered...

    yeah...

    ppl trackers r us...

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEsq View Post
    Mostly good but when it comes to p2p phone calls, there really needs to be some mechanism to trace calls when there is a reasonable basis of suspicion to do so (and when authorities already know who/what they are looking for)...just look up the phenomenon of "swatting" if you want to know why. People can cause chaos via prank calls these days, including having swat teams kick down doors, put families on the floor and arrest people who actually did nothing, without a warrant, because of an "anonymous tip." The story of the flashbang in the baby crib kinda exacerbates this point..
    How about we just de-militarize the police and get rid of SWAT teams...

    What about if we made raiding the wrong house and killing the occupant(s) a felony with a mandatory min of life in prison.
    How about a cop killing a family pet worth 10 years.
    About cops responding to a call for help and killing those they were called to help... wow! Some days I really don't want to read this forum...

    What my mom told me: A police man is your friend.
    What I'd tell any kid today: If you see a cop - run the $#@! away!

    Both pieces of advice are good in their respective eras. (sp)
    I WANT MY COUNTRY BACK!

    -t
    Last edited by tangent4ronpaul; 07-29-2014 at 01:41 PM.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by tangent4ronpaul View Post

    How about we just de-militarize the police and get rid of SWAT teams...

    What my mom told me: A police man is your friend.
    What I'd tell any kid today: If you see a cop - run the $#@! away!

    -t
    Fair point but as things stand right now, the concept of anonymous tips really needs to be remedied

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEsq View Post
    Fair point but as things stand right now, the concept of anonymous tips really needs to be remedied
    what? you mean with... actual... police work... ?

    naw, $#@! that. let's just run up on this dudes house and test out our new bearcat.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by VBRonPaulFan View Post
    what? you mean with... actual... police work... ?

    naw, $#@! that. let's just run up on this dudes house and test out our new bearcat.
    No you don't understand what I'm saying, I'm talking about the guy making the call not the innocent guy getting his door knocked down. If the fraudulent call is made over an IP masker (which can be done over programs similar to Skype) police can't trace it and they usually have to get the FBI involved to even begin to figure out where the call came from...long after they've already kicked the door down/arrested the family/etc
    Last edited by LibertyEsq; 07-29-2014 at 02:10 PM.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEsq View Post
    Fair point but as things stand right now, the concept of anonymous tips really needs to be remedied
    The Sixth Amendment:
    In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
    Inspired by US Rep. Ron Paul of Texas, this site is dedicated to facilitating grassroots initiatives that aim to restore a sovereign limited constitutional Republic based on the rule of law, states' rights and individual rights. We seek to enshrine the original intent of our Founders to foster respect for private property, seek justice, provide opportunity, and to secure individual liberty for ourselves and our posterity.


    A police state is a small price to pay for living in the freest country on earth.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by mad cow View Post
    The Sixth Amendment:
    In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
    Exactly... Sadly, anonymous tips right now can be used by police in place of a warrant in certain situations (or to get a warrant quickly), even if an anonymous tip could never actually be used against someone in court

  16. #14

  17. #15
    Founded or not, that impression, FBI officials argue, has unfairly extended to the investigations of law enforcement and intelligence agencies that obtain individual warrants to intercept the calls, chats and instant messages of suspected criminals and spies.
    FOAD

  18. #16
    Founded or not, that impression, FBI officials argue, has unfairly extended to the investigations of law enforcement and intelligence agencies that obtain individual warrants to intercept the calls, chats and instant messages of suspected criminals and spies.
    FOAD



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  20. #17
    One of the most egregious examples of what I'm talking about (pay attention to the box on the right in the video):

    Caller ID spoofing, social engineering, TTY, prank calls and phone phreaking techniques may be variously combined. 911 systems (including telephony and human operators) have been tricked by calls placed from cities hundreds of miles away or even from other countries.[9] The caller typically places a 911 call using a spoofed phone number with the goal of tricking emergency authorities into responding to an address with a SWAT team to an emergency which doesn't exist.


    http://www.reddit.com/r/LivestreamFa...tting_swatted/

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swatting

    Swatting is the tricking of any emergency service (via such as a 9-1-1 dispatcher) into dispatching an emergency response based on the false report of an on-going critical incident. Episodes range from large to small, from the deployment of bomb squads, SWAT units and other police units and the concurrent evacuations of schools and businesses to a single fabricated police report meant to discredit an individual as a prank or personal vendetta. While it is a misdemeanor or a felony in every state (of the USA) in and of itself to report any untruth to law enforcement, swatting can cause massive disruption to the civil order and the public peace by the hoaxed deployment of police and other civic resources such as ambulances and fire departments.
    I don't know about you, but I'd rather live in a country where a call claiming an emergency in a home could be traced (just traced, not wiretapped) to verify the claim, and fraudulent callers prosecuted, rather than one where the above can happen regularly.
    Last edited by LibertyEsq; 07-29-2014 at 02:46 PM.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by mad cow View Post
    The Sixth Amendment:
    In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
    The Constitution predates organized police in this country. It's "protections" seem quaint against the angry tonnage of 'roided predators empowered to prowl the streets.
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  22. #19
    LibForestPaul
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEsq View Post
    Mostly good but when it comes to p2p phone calls, there really needs to be some mechanism to trace calls when there is a reasonable basis of suspicion to do so (and when authorities already know who/what they are looking for)...just look up the phenomenon of "swatting" if you want to know why. People can cause chaos via prank calls these days, including having swat teams kick down doors, put families on the floor and arrest people who actually did nothing, without a warrant, because of an "anonymous tip." The story of the flashbang in the baby crib kinda exacerbates this point..
    State does not have the authority to force communications to be identifiable.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by LibForestPaul View Post
    State does not have the authority to force communications to be identifiable.
    Maybe not, but perhaps companies should be more willing to voluntarily allow for mechanisms that do so. The kind of thing I am talking about could lead not only to scary SWAT situations but possibly wrongful convictions for serious crimes. It would just be better for police to know where these threats/pranks are coming from before the SWAT raids and not months after the fact by subpoena. I'm not advocating for wiretapping or spying, just for identifying the source of "anonymous tips" that do nothing but cause chaos and disrupt people's lives, so such people can be held accountable
    Last edited by LibertyEsq; 07-29-2014 at 07:03 PM.

  24. #21
    Waah, get a Warrant first. Oh, they dont even think they should have to do that.

    All they are accompishing is driving everyone underground. They are gonna make real threats to the people even harder to spot. Perhaps this is exactly what is needed. Everyone making a collective effort to be free to communicate without being monitored. The sad thing is that the Feds are so accustomed to lying and getting away with it that they are really lying to themselves. They are creating the Fascist Dystopian Nightmare and suffocating people in order to prevent that same suffocation from happening at the purported threat by someone else.

    The Feds abuse of power is going to result in millions of people saying the Feds can go $#@! themselves.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  25. #22
    See, I think it's quite the opposite. Technology makes it EASIER for the feds to spy on you.

    It's hard for me to imagine a bunch of colonists in the 1700s complaining about the drone capabilities of King George when drones hadn't been invented yet. But these days a drone the size of a moth can listen in on your conversation. I believe that if such technology had been possible 250 years ago, the war for American independence would never have succeeded, if it had been able to start at all.

    But I'm a luddite, like anti-Federalist.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
    T.S. Eliot's The Hollow Men

    "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." - Plato

    We Are Running Out of Time - Mini Me

    Quote Originally Posted by Philhelm
    I part ways with "libertarianism" when it transitions from ideology grounded in logic into self-defeating autism for the sake of ideological purity.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by nobody's_hero View Post
    See, I think it's quite the opposite. Technology makes it EASIER for the feds to spy on you.

    It's hard for me to imagine a bunch of colonists in the 1700s complaining about the drone capabilities of King George when drones hadn't been invented yet. But these days a drone the size of a moth can listen in on your conversation. I believe that if such technology had been possible 250 years ago, the war for American independence would never have succeeded, if it had been able to start at all.

    But I'm a luddite, like anti-Federalist.
    Yeah, this:

    Is a Future Revolution Possible Without Privacy?
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/entry.p...ithout-Privacy
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  27. #24
    I couldn't even get past the first sentence.

    Quote Originally Posted by article
    Federal law enforcement and intelligence authorities say they are increasingly struggling to conduct court-ordered wiretaps [read: sham FISA "court"] on suspects because of a surge in chat services, instant messaging and other online communications that lack the technical means to be intercepted.
    Oh, you mean like the same sort of chat and IM programs the IRS used to avoid email archive laws, as admitted by Mr. Koskinen in last week's House hearing? Those same programs?
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEsq View Post
    I don't know about you, but I'd rather live in a country where a call claiming an emergency in a home could be traced
    Luckily, technology does not respond to your wishes.

    This is not a policy decision. This is technological reality. But, you're welcome to write your Congressman with your concerns.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    Luckily, technology does not respond to your wishes.

    This is not a policy decision. This is technological reality. But, you're welcome to write your Congressman with your concerns.
    That's not true at all, companies who supply this technology have means to trace p2p calls. That's how anyone ever gets caught right now, except right now it has to get routed through the FBI and takes months to find out. Its completely unsustainable, really. A few kids who know how to mask their IPs can constantly raise hell for the rest of us.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEsq View Post
    That's not true at all, companies who supply this technology have means to trace p2p calls. That's how anyone ever gets caught right now, except right now it has to get routed through the FBI and takes months to find out. Its completely unsustainable, really. A few kids who know how to mask their IPs can constantly raise hell for the rest of us.
    Hell being defined as talking about "our Govt is out of balance"? Technology can be used for either good or evil, just like a gun, just like the law, just like any tool... There are threats out there. But I think your reaction to "not being protected by Govt" is both Govt's expected response, and disproportionate from the actual Level of Threat.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Hell being defined as talking about "our Govt is out of balance"? Technology can be used for either good or evil, just like a gun, just like the law, just like any tool... There are threats out there. But I think your reaction to "not being protected by Govt" is both Govt's expected response, and disproportionate from the actual Level of Threat.
    That's not what I am saying at all...it is the government itself that is being abused due to its ineptitude. I don't want to be protected by Govt, I want to be protected FROM government ineptitude, in this case due to anonymous tips - which is a problem generally, not just in the p2p prank call context

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEsq View Post
    That's not what I am saying at all...it is the government itself that is being abused due to its ineptitude. I don't want to be protected by Govt, I want to be protected FROM government ineptitude, in this case due to anonymous tips - which is a problem generally, not just in the p2p prank call context
    True. People get the Govt they demand. And many, too many, all want the "protect me" and "take care of me" from Govt to the point that said Govt becomes inept. There are two sides to this. The people that want Govt, and the Govt that gives people what they want. One thing to remember for those types of people is a Govt big enough to give them everything they want is big enough to take it all away as well.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEsq View Post
    I don't know about you, but I'd rather live in a country where a call claiming an emergency in a home could be traced (just traced, not wiretapped) to verify the claim, and fraudulent callers prosecuted, rather than one where the above can happen regularly.
    I'd rather live in a country where there were no cops and it wasn't simply OK to break into someone's home based on what amounts to zero evidence
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

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