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Thread: Fit for duty.

  1. #1

    Fit for duty.

    List those behaviors that a worker engages in when off the clock, that an employer should be able to find you unfit for duty. And ultimately terminate you.

    Of course we will find many here that say any reason they can conjure up to get rid of a worker is ok. Just fire anyone at will. But let's limited it to companies that apply for and receive government sanction privileges, like a filed and registered corporation.

    Buggery off the clock at home a justification to be fired?

    How about union organization drive?
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  3. #2
    I would fire you over your avatar.
    And the title of 'Goldmember'
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  4. #3
    fire someone so I can take his job
    A savage barbaric tribal society where thugs parade the streets and illegally assault and murder innocent civilians, yeah that is the alternative to having police. Oh wait, that is the police

    We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home.
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  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    I would fire you over your avatar.
    And the title of 'Goldmember'




    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  6. #5
    I think employers should be able to hire and fire at will, for no reason.

    One of the side effects is that fewer people will want to be employees, and I think that is a GOOD thing. I wish I had made the switch from employee to being self-employed sooner.

    Freedom of association, and no government special privileges like incorporation. The people running corporations need to be personally responsible for their decisions without being able to hide behind the corporate veil. You would suddenly see corporations behaving better (think GE dumping PCB's in the Hudson, etc).
    Last edited by Tod; 07-28-2014 at 11:05 PM.
    "Sorry, fellows, the rebellion is off. We couldn't get a rebellion permit."

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Tod View Post
    I think employers should be able to hire and fire at will, for no reason.

    One of the side effects is that fewer people will want to be employees, and I think that is a GOOD thing. I wish I had made the switch from employee to being self-employed sooner.

    Freedom of association, and no government special privileges like incorporation. The people running corporations need to be personally responsible for their decisions without being able to hide behind the corporate veil. You would suddenly see corporations behaving better (think GE dumping PCB's in the Hudson, etc).
    i agree in concept. but do you even know what legally the term "employer" means?






    As I said in another thread that is relevant:

    "... open borders are ok even though we don't have a free market and I am taxed to support aliens, etc...it is not just a philosophical argument...NAP ya know."
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  8. #7
    While I'd like to see more people become self employed as well, the fact is that a good economy requires that something be done, that value be added to raw materials to produce something.

    And as much as we'd like to, you cannot build 787s or drop forged marine reduction gears in your garage.

  9. #8
    While I'd like to see more people become self employed as well, the fact is that a good economy requires that something be done, that value be added to raw materials to produce something.

    And as much as we'd like to, you cannot build 787s or drop forged marine reduction gears in your garage.



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  11. #9
    Let me put it this way. When these corporations 'offshore' our jobs, do you suppose they make their new third world employees piss in Dixie cups?

    Why do you think they 'offshore' jobs in the first place? If not to escape this very sort of insanity, then why?
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  12. #10
    Posting on Facebook stating negative things about the employer. That's legit.
    "I shall bring justice to Westeros. Every man shall reap what he has sown, from the highest lord to the lowest gutter rat. They have made my kingdom bleed, and I do not forget that."
    -Stannis Baratheon

  13. #11
    Assuming there isn't any licenses involved. The employer should be able to set up a employee policy and as long as you agree to said policy thats it.

    If the employer says you can't drink or smoke or go to church on sunday as long as you agree to it, it is what it is. Fire away.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    i agree in concept. but do you even know what legally the term "employer" means?
    It means if an agent is driving a delivery truck for his principle and negligently rolls over a child in the street the principle is the respondeant superior responsible for damages. So if a employer, acting on intuition, does not want to take on the responsibility for the actions of an incompetent agent he should have every right to disavow himself from individual and annul their employment contract with or without reason. Similarly should an agent for any reason concurs that his employer places him at undue, unwarranted, unnecessary, or unacceptable risk or conflict of conscience; for any reason he sees fit, he too should have the freedom to disassociate and the immediate opportunity to annul their agreement and part paths. All relationships private and professional should arise from freedom of association and voluntary consent.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  15. #13
    Liberty and property rights is always the answer.

    Government has opposed that, and folks attempting mutually beneficial relationships are left trying to sort these artificial problems out while restricted in the box government has jammed us in to.

    Are 787s or drop forged marine reduction gears even really the best way to do the task?

    I can't say for sure because I'm stuck with all of you in a f****** box -and because we always try to make the best out of a bad situation our forced retardation is hardly ever noticeable. Was that thread drift? lol I think you all get my meaning.
    Last edited by bunklocoempire; 07-29-2014 at 02:37 PM.
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  16. #14
    Nearly universal at-will employment is probably the most libertarian/free-market thing about this country's laws right now

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    List those behaviors that a worker engages in when off the clock, that an employer should be able to find you unfit for duty. And ultimately terminate you.

    ...
    Im just curious how many would say SMOKING? Not smokin a bowl, I mean just ordinary Tobacco...

    ---

    The "Rights" that are identified during the establishment of a Contract (which is basically what Employment is) start off as "not clearly defined", so it is up to both parties to define those "Reasonable Limits" to the scope of the Contract. When one side, or the other becomes desperate, things they would normally put "Limits" on are excluded in the establishment of that Contract of Employment, which enables abuse by both sides. Employers and Employees start off with NO RIGHTS on either side until that Contract has been established and agreed to by BOTH parties. Anything short of that is Enslavement.

    The "Power" to terminate an Employee for ANY behavior outside the workplace is part of that Contract, and if anyone examines what is in those contracts, they are getting as riduculs as Credit Card Agreements. That Termination also fringes on the edge of what people would consider as Reasonable, or applying to ALL Contracts, but the thing is, what is Reasonable is NOT included in all Contracts. Can an Employer have a Legal Right to terminate an employee for what they do at home? Only if the Employee grants the Employer that power to begin with. Otherwise the Employer is told to go $#@! themselves and no Agreement on the Terms of the Contract are established. Thus, no Contract, no expectation from either party.
    1776 > 1984

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    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  18. #16
    They should be able to draw up any employment contract they wish. If that contract stipulates that they can fire you at any time, without cause, then that's what they should be able to do. If that contract mentions some protections that ensure your job security, then they must abide by the terms of their agreement.



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  20. #17
    I've never allowed our employees to smoke inside the building. What they do on their own time is their own thing. Don't like that its raining, sit in your car. I don't like that my office equipment stinks of smoke.

    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Im just curious how many would say SMOKING? Not smokin a bowl, I mean just ordinary Tobacco...

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Im just curious how many would say SMOKING? Not smokin a bowl, I mean just ordinary Tobacco...
    If the employer provides health coverage of any kind, then they could certainly have an interest in whether or not their employees smoke or engage in any other activity which could cost the employer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  22. #19
    Anything. Employment is at will.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Let me put it this way. When these corporations 'offshore' our jobs, do you suppose they make their new third world employees piss in Dixie cups?

    Why do you think they 'offshore' jobs in the first place? If not to escape this very sort of insanity, then why?
    That is a pretty small part of it. Mostly, it is labor cost they are trying to save on, and here I mean the total tab including paying for BammyCare, SSI, and so forth. Typically, if you are making $50K/annum salaried, the cost to the employer to keep you is AT LEAST $100K, most likely more.
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  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    That is a pretty small part of it. Mostly, it is labor cost they are trying to save on, and here I mean the total tab including paying for BammyCare, SSI, and so forth. Typically, if you are making $50K/annum salaried, the cost to the employer to keep you is AT LEAST $100K, most likely more.
    Yes, this is one of the reasons why I'd like to just receive a straight salary. No other benefits like health care, I'll get that on my own. The money the company saves could go towards my salary. I will no longer be subsidizing other more expensive employees' health benefits.
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    It means if an agent is driving a delivery truck for his principle and negligently rolls over a child in the street the principle is the respondeant superior responsible for damages. So if a employer, acting on intuition, does not want to take on the responsibility for the actions of an incompetent agent he should have every right to disavow himself from individual and annul their employment contract with or without reason. Similarly should an agent for any reason concurs that his employer places him at undue, unwarranted, unnecessary, or unacceptable risk or conflict of conscience; for any reason he sees fit, he too should have the freedom to disassociate and the immediate opportunity to annul their agreement and part paths. All relationships private and professional should arise from freedom of association and voluntary consent.
    No legally, an "employer" is government. That is why the government can regulate them.
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    No legally, an "employer" is government.
    No.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    No.
    LOL. An employer in lRS code has employees, which work for the government.
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    No legally, an "employer" is government. That is why the government can regulate them.
    Can you expound on that or cite?

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    Can you expound on that or cite?

    Read the whole book, but start at page 75 for discussion on "employee."

    http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/misc/ctcforfree.pdf
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  31. #27
    n/m, danke beat me to it. ~hugs danke~
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
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  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    LOL. An employer in lRS code has employees, which work for the government.
    Yeah....no. There is a major flaw in your argument.

    The IRS is not responsible, nor do they have the authority to regulate an employer's hiring/firing practices. Their sole purpose is to ensure they get a percentage of each employee's paycheck each month. By your logic, because the government collects a portion of an employee's check each month, the employee also works for the health insurance company who covers them. Yeah...no.
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  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Read the whole book, but start at page 75 for discussion on "employee."

    http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/misc/ctcforfree.pdf
    It seems you were referencing the term employee while I was expouding on the meaning of the word employee

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Massachusetts View Post
    Yeah....no. There is a major flaw in your argument.

    The IRS is not responsible, nor do they have the authority to regulate an employer's hiring/firing practices. Their sole purpose is to ensure they get a percentage of each employee's paycheck each month. By your logic, because the government collects a portion of an employee's check each month, the employee also works for the health insurance company who covers them. Yeah...no.
    Apples and oranges.

    I'm talking statutory (legal) definitions, as codified. You are talking common law definitions.

    Health insurance is a private agreement.
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

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