View Poll Results: Is vigilante justice ever justified according to the Bible?

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Thread: Is vigilante justice ever justified; according to the Bible?

  1. #1

    Is vigilante justice ever justified; according to the Bible?

    I wish I had something to add to the OP, but I really don't. I'm curious what you guys think. One thing I find interesting is that many Christians I've talked to will say vigilante justice is always "murder" and yet they frequently support US police. THat support leads me to think these people are biased. I'm curious what you guys think. Is it possible for a Christian to use vigilante justice in any situation without sinning? Poll coming.

    I will at times play devil's advocate in this thread against certain positions in order to better understand the logical consistency behind such positions. That does not necessarily mean that I actually take the other position. Keep this in mind.
    Last edited by Christian Liberty; 07-28-2014 at 08:34 PM.



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  3. #2
    http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm

    The Constitution contains no explicit provisions for criminal law enforcement. Nor did the constitutions of any of the several states contain such provisions at the time of the Founding. Early constitutions enunciated the intention that law enforcement was a universal duty that each person owed to the community, rather than a power of the government. Founding-era constitutions addressed law enforcement from the standpoint of individual liberties and placed explicit barriers upon the state.
    Not so much in the New testament,,( which focuses of Forgiveness), But more so in the Old,, which focused on principles and law.
    Last edited by pcosmar; 07-28-2014 at 11:38 AM.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  4. #3
    Exodus 22 says if someone breaks into my house, I can kill them.

    There are other examples found in the Bible. If I find someone about to commit murder, I can stop the murder by killing the one who lies in wait. This has occasionally been used to justify the murder of abortionists (kill them before they kill more). I do not think it is the same thing.

    I would not consider it vigilante justice. It is self-denfense or defense of an innocent person in the moment. It does not mean that when the system fails, I chase the person down and exact revenge.

    Life is precious. As hard as it may be, it is better for a guilty man to go free than for an innocent man to lose his life unjustly. Furthermore, my personal brand of justice may not agree with yours. For that reason there has to be an objective law that determines justice for the community at large, not just what one person thinks ought to be done. It is easy to want to take revenge when I, or someone close to me, is the victim.
    Last edited by euphemia; 07-28-2014 at 12:24 PM.
    #NashvilleStrong

    “I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by tobismom View Post
    Exodus 22 says if someone breaks into my house, I can kill them.

    There are other examples found in the Bible. If I find someone about to commit murder, I can stop the murder by killing the one who lies in wait. This has occasionally been used to justify the murder of abortionists (kill them before they kill more). I do not think it is the same thing.
    Do you agree with me that abortion is murder? And if so, how can you murder an abortion doctor? Wouldn't killing one be vigilante justice?
    Last edited by Christian Liberty; 07-28-2014 at 12:23 PM. Reason: edited to make sure my stance on abortion is clear

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    Do you agree with me that abortion is murder? And if so, how can you murder an abortion doctor? Wouldn't killing one be vigilante justice?
    You are approaching dangerous territory(not terrorist) with talk like that. How about the part in the bible that talk about turning the other cheek? let he without sin throw the first stone? leave judgement to God etc etc etc. Then again, if you ignore all those parts then you gonna have to deal with people like me who do not appreciate people who go around killing abortion doctors because they provided a service to a willing customer.

    Its mind set like this that allow govt to create vice squads to protect people who do not ask for your protection.
    Last edited by juleswin; 07-28-2014 at 03:27 PM. Reason: typo

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    You are approaching dangerous terrorist with talk like that. How about the part in the bible that talk about turning the other cheek? let he without sin throw the first stone? leave judgement to God etc etc etc. Then again, if you ignore all those parts then you gonna have to deal with people like me who do not appreciate people who go around killing abortion doctors because they provided a service to a willing customer.

    Its mind set like this that allow govt to create vice squads to protect people who do not ask for your protection.
    If I hire someone to kill someone I don't like, that person is providing a service to me, a willing customer. Does that make it right? Mind you, I'm not saying that I agree with his suggestion that it's ok to kill abortion doctors, but it seems like you go to the opposite extreme by trivializing something as gruesome as abortion as simply a "service" that is provided to people.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    Do you agree with me that abortion is murder? And if so, how can you murder an abortion doctor? Wouldn't killing one be vigilante justice?
    I didn't say I agreed with killing abortionists. I don't.

    I think abortion is murder. There are some branches of the anti-abortion movement that encourage the killing of abortionists and violent destruction of clinics. Paul Hill was under the influence of such teaching. I think it fell into Eric Rudolph's repetoire, too.

    I do not agree with people who espouse this. I was just answering the question in the OP.

    I do not think self-defense is vigilante anything. It is a response to an attack, and actually is consistent with how libertarians think. If we are invaded, we respond to protect self and property.
    #NashvilleStrong

    “I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    You are approaching dangerous terrorist with talk like that. How about the part in the bible that talk about turning the other cheek? let he without sin throw the first stone? leave judgement to God etc etc etc. Then again, if you ignore all those parts then you gonna have to deal with people like me who do not appreciate people who go around killing abortion doctors because they provided a service to a willing customer.

    Its mind set like this that allow govt to create vice squads to protect people who do not ask for your protection.
    Google "Textual Criticism".
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12



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  11. #9
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    Romans 12:19, sir.
    Equality is a false god.

    Armatissimi e Liberissimi

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    If I hire someone to kill someone I don't like, that person is providing a service to me, a willing customer. Does that make it right? Mind you, I'm not saying that I agree with his suggestion that it's ok to kill abortion doctors, but it seems like you go to the opposite extreme by trivializing something as gruesome as abortion as simply a "service" that is provided to people.
    I'll start listening to that line of thinking when people on your side will start proposing treating doctors and women(especially the women) who use/supply abortion like 1st degree murderers you think they are.

  13. #11
    Justice is always justified.. (even when it is "illegal")

    It very seldom happens in the hands of Government.

    This is why I take solace in knowing that there is a final Judge.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  14. #12
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    Just thinking about this. Justice has to be defined according to God's law otherwise I think it would be arbitrary.

    Second, we should ask ourselves what authority we have to punish sin. Most here dont agree to a traditional understanding of Romans 13 but if you do I appeal to that.

    And finally, if we do have authority then justice and not vengeance should be our aim.

    These woudn't leave much room for vigilante justice.
    Last edited by Southron; 07-28-2014 at 05:59 PM.
    Equality is a false god.

    Armatissimi e Liberissimi

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    I'll start listening to that line of thinking when people on your side will start proposing treating doctors and women(especially the women) who use/supply abortion like 1st degree murderers you think they are.
    Isn't that what Freedom Fanatic did?

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    You are approaching dangerous territory(not terrorist) with talk like that. How about the part in the bible that talk about turning the other cheek? let he without sin throw the first stone? leave judgement to God etc etc etc. Then again, if you ignore all those parts then you gonna have to deal with people like me who do not appreciate people who go around killing abortion doctors because they provided a service to a willing customer.

    Its mind set like this that allow govt to create vice squads to protect people who do not ask for your protection.
    I wasn't actually suggesting it, I was playing devil's advocate. There are a lot of things that I think wouldn't theoretically be morally wrong that I still wouldn't do for pragmatic reasons. I'm not even saying vigilante killing of abortion doctors would be one of those, but even if it were, I still wouldn't do it.

    I'm just trying to think about this logically.
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    If I hire someone to kill someone I don't like, that person is providing a service to me, a willing customer. Does that make it right? Mind you, I'm not saying that I agree with his suggestion that it's ok to kill abortion doctors, but it seems like you go to the opposite extreme by trivializing something as gruesome as abortion as simply a "service" that is provided to people.
    I wasn't actually suggesting that. I'm honestly not sure how that would be different morally than killing a Nazi who was running a gas chamber. But I'm not taking a stance here at all. I'm more wondering why exactly that would be wrong, and playing devil's advocate in order to learn, not actually saying that its right.

    For what its worth, I wouldn't have done what Scott Roeder did, but I wouldn't have voted to convict him either. And I don't see him as a murderer necessarily.

    Quote Originally Posted by tobismom View Post
    I didn't say I agreed with killing abortionists. I don't.

    I think abortion is murder. There are some branches of the anti-abortion movement that encourage the killing of abortionists and violent destruction of clinics. Paul Hill was under the influence of such teaching. I think it fell into Eric Rudolph's repetoire, too.

    I do not agree with people who espouse this. I was just answering the question in the OP.
    My question (playing devil's advocate) was why killing an abortion doctor (a mass murderer) is unjustified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rifleman View Post
    Romans 12:19, sir.
    Do you think all forms of criminal punishment are immoral? Or just ones not done by governing authorities? If you're interpreting Romans 12:19 to refer to justice, why doesn't it refer to all forms of justice? And, if you kill a murderer that the government refuses to do anything about because you don't want to see him kill anyone else, is that necessarily vengeance?

    Keep in mind, brother, I don't really have a position here yet. I'm kind of questioning certain propositions that I've been taught, but I'm not necessarily saying you or anyone else is wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rifleman View Post
    Just thinking about this. Justice has to be defined according to God's law otherwise I think it would be arbitrary.
    Well, to play devil's advocate here, God's law says that murderers should die. The government's law says that murderers sometimes shouldn't die, if the murderer has a badge (think the cops who killed Kelly Thomas) or if the murderer is a "doctor" who kills an unborn child.

    So, according to God's law, wouldn't killing such a person be justice? Again, I'm not actually concluding that yet, but I think you could at least make that argument.
    Second, we should ask ourselves what authority we have to punish sin. Most here dont agree to a traditional understanding of Romans 13 but if you do I appeal to that.
    I agree that Romans 13 is part of scripture, but beyond that I'm not 100% sure what it means. I don't think I agree with the "traditional" interpretations but "traditional" interpretations vary in how far they go and "alternative" interpretations do to.

    For instance: the "traditional" view is that the government should be obeyed unless it tells you to disobey God. But what that means varies based on who you are talking to. Some people take a very tight view of "disobeying God", interpret Romans 13 to give government a very broad authority to do essentially whatever it wants, and all but say "obey the government unless they tell you not to preach." Jerry Fallwell Sr. even used this passage to say that the Iraq War is just. I've seen people (in theological discussions on non-libertarian sites) use Romans 13 and the Reformed confessions to say that basically any war that's "in the national interest" is justified.

    On the other side you have people like Laurence Vance who seem to be saying (I'm not totally sure since he hasn't exegeted the passage, but even if he doesn't take exactly this position the position still exists) that yes, you should obey the government if it doesn't tell you to disobey God, but they have a broad interpretation of what this means and would say that things like unjust, aggressive wars and enforcement of laws against "victimless crimes" would be a violation of God's command.

    So, really, there's a fairly broad amount of territory under "we're required to obey the government unless it tells us to disobey God." I'm more comfortable with looser constructions of this (last paragraph) than tighter ones (second to last) but I wouldn't necessarily state that its a sin to break a random law. I'm much less comfortable with the idea of using violence against governing authorities, but even then I'm not sure its unjustified in extreme cases.

    And finally, if we do have authority then justice and not vengeance should be our aim.
    Absolutely. See what I said above. If the motive is to get revenge, than its definitely wrong. If the motive is to prevent a killer from killing again, I'm not sure.

    These woudn't leave much room for vigilante justice.
    Well, as I said above, I don't see how Romans 12:19 would have to do with vigilante justice any more than any other kind. Romans 13 is more directly applicable, but even if the hermaneutics behind the traditional view are otherwise correct, isn't the highest authority in the US the US Constitution? So even by that legal authority, there are a lot of politicians who are violating the law, and lots of laws that have no legal standing.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    Isn't that what Freedom Fanatic did?
    I may need to leave a disclaimer that I'm questioning for the purpose of learning in this thread, not taking hard positions as of yet. But, I have a hard time seeing a moral difference between somebody that kills an abortion doctor and somebody who kills an SS Guard that is running a gas chamber. Maybe both of those things are wrong. For some reason I'm uncomfortable with that conclusion; it might not be pragmatic to shoot an SS Guard in the head but I have a hard time with the idea that that would be wrong, and I have a hard time thinking of a moral system that would consider that to be wrong that isn't either completely pacifistic or one that basically says "governing authorities" can run roughshod over you as much as you want. On the other hand, for some reason I'm uncomfortable with the idea that killing an abortion doctor could actually be morally right, even though I'm absolutely certain that abortion is a murderous act. I don't know. I'm definitely not going to kill anyone regardless of where this thread takes my mindset; to me this is a theoretical ​discussion and is about establishing logical consistency, not an actual guide for action. And, again, I'm not making hard assertions in this thread, I'm asking questions and trying to think. All of the answers so far have been helpful and valuable.



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