Perfect Laurence Vance comment

[Christian Liberty]

Bible Baptist Church in Carthage, Missouri, is “a very patriotic church,” says Pastor Kent Hogan. The church has an American flag in the building, and every morning at summer youth camp, the teenagers pledge allegiance and sing the national anthem. Patriotic holidays are big doings: veterans wear their uniforms and the preacher salutes them during the morning worship service. The church loves the military. Thus, it was a tremendous shock to find out that the National Guard from the nearby armory would not attend the church’s annual Vacation Bible School to be honored by the church. After all, the theme was “God’s Rescue Squad,” and the paramedics, fire department, and sheriff’s department all showed up earlier in the week. “We were going to thank them for protecting our religious liberty,” said Pastor Hogan. “It was more of a promotion for the military – to show the kids what the military does.”
To show the kids what the military does? Was the church going to show the kids dead bodies, pools of blood, body parts, widows, orphans, refugees, and bombed out villages? Or just U.S. soldiers with no arms, legs, or genitals as a result of participating in an immoral foreign war?

http://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/love-rejected/

I'm glad I don't attend Kent Hogan's church.

[Ronin Truth]

"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." -- Sinclair Lewis (1935)

[Christian Liberty]

"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." -- Sinclair Lewis (1935)

Indeed. I think I care more about seeing churches wake up than I do of actually fixing this country at this point. Secular fascists are going to do what they are going to do, but the fact that some of my brothers and sisters in Christ are falling for it is downright sad (and no, I'm not necessarily saying that Kent Hogan is my brother in Christ.... he certainly isn't a particularly good pastor at the least.)

[Tywysog Cymru]

The worst of the Fascists is John Hagee.

[Christian Liberty]

The worst of the Fascists is John Hagee.

Valid point. I haven't made comparisons but I know Hagee is bad. He's also not a Christian, he believes Jews are saved through their adherence to the Old Testament Law (Galatians 1:8.) So, Hagee is kind of a rank unbeliever who happens to be influential in my book. Not sure if Hogan is in the same category or not, I don't know enough about him.

[heavenlyboy34]

Valid point. I haven't made comparisons but I know Hagee is bad. He's also not a Christian, he believes Jews are saved through their adherence to the Old Testament Law (Galatians 1:8.) So, Hagee is kind of a rank unbeliever who happens to be influential in my book. Not sure if Hogan is in the same category or not, I don't know enough about him.

I don't follow Hagee's work...is he a sort of "neo-Judaizer"?

[Christian Liberty]

I don't follow Hagee's work...is he a sort of "neo-Judaizer"?

Look at this, its short: http://www.christian-faith.com/john-...e-the-messiah/

[Kevin007]

Valid point. I haven't made comparisons but I know Hagee is bad. He's also not a Christian, he believes Jews are saved through their adherence to the Old Testament Law (Galatians 1:8.) So, Hagee is kind of a rank unbeliever who happens to be influential in my book. Not sure if Hogan is in the same category or not, I don't know enough about him.

wrong; and he has explained this.

[Christian Liberty]

wrong; and he has explained this.

I'm sure he retracted because he looked bad, so what?

Look, I understand that you are more dispensational. I am not, but I don't have a problem with dispensationalists per say. But, there's regular dispensationalism (which I think is what you believe in) and then there's radical dispensationalism and radical zionism. Hagee is a political whore, not a real pastor.

[Kevin007]

http://feeds.jhm.org/ME2/dirmod.asp?...2530B583FE9B95

[Kevin007]

I'm sure he retracted because he looked bad, so what?

Look, I understand that you are more dispensational. I am not, but I don't have a problem with dispensationalists per say. But, there's regular dispensationalism (which I think is what you believe in) and then there's radical dispensationalism and radical zionism. Hagee is a political whore, not a real pastor.

Quite a bold claim- do you have any proof?

[Kevin007]

http://www.jhm.org/Home/About/Beliefs

please lmk which beliefs you do not agree with? (FF)


Beliefs

The Lord Jesus Christ

We believe in the deity of Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God. We believe in His substitutionary death for all men, His resurrection, and His eventual return to judge the world.
Salvation

We believe all men are born with a sinful nature and that the work of the Cross was to redeem man from the power of sin. We believe that this salvation is available to all who will receive it.
The Holy Spirit

We believe in the existence of the Holy Spirit as the third person of the Trinity and in His interaction with man. We believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit as manifested by the fruit and the gifts of the Spirit.
The Sacred Scripture

We believe in the scripture as the inspired Word of God and that it is the complete revelation of God's will for mankind. We believe in the absolute authority of the scripture to govern the affairs of men.
Stewardship

We believe that every man is the steward of his life and resources which ultimately belong to God. We believe that tithing is a measure of obedience to the scriptural principles of stewardship.
The Church

We believe in the Church as the eternal and universal Body of Christ consisting of all those who have accepted the work of the atonement. We believe in the need for a local assembly of believers for the purpose of evangelism and edification.
Prayer and Praise

We believe in the worship of the Lord through singing, clapping, and the lifting of hands. We believe in the authority of the believer to ask freely of the Lord for his needs.
Body Ministry

We believe in the ministry of the Holy Spirit to the Church body through the anointing of oil by the elders of the church.
Evangelism

We believe that evangelism is the obligation of every follower of Jesus Christ. The Lord commands us to go out and make disciples of all the earth. We believe that each person is first responsible to evangelism in their own family as the Holy Spirit leads them and gives them the ability.
Water Baptism

We believe in the ordinance of water baptism by immersion in obedience to the Word of God. All those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior should be baptized in water as a public profession of their faith in Christ and to experience what the Bible calls the "circumcision of the Spirit."
Our Commitment to Israel

We believe in the promise of Genesis 12:3 regarding the Jewish people and the nation of Israel. We believe that this is an eternal covenant between God and the seed of Abraham to which God is faithful.
The Priesthood of the Believer

We believe that every believer has a unique relationship to the Lord. As His children, every Christian has immediate access to the throne of Grace and the ability to manifest the power of the Lord Jesus Christ in ministry.

[Christian Liberty]

Quite a bold claim- do you have any proof?

Your last link speaks for itself, the man is totally clueless and is overly concerned with defending a godless nation.

The fact that he thinks people who believe in "replacement theology" are anti-semites is enough to not take anything he says seriously.

The man is there for the purpose of getting Christians to support Israel, which in turn gets them to support an interventionist foreign policy, which in turn leads one to support abuses of government power at home "to keep us safe." Now, I understand that you can support Israel without supporting the interventionist foreign policy, but Hagee supports both because he's a neocon.

Oh, and your link denies that Hagee ever denied that Jesus is the Messiah. And I agree that he did not deny that. What he denied is that the Jews were responsible to be aware of that, or that they needed to believe in the Messiah in order to be saved. That's why I say he's a heretic.

Look up dual covenant theology, that's what Hagee believes in.

[Christian Liberty]

http://www.jhm.org/Home/About/Beliefs

please lmk which beliefs you do not agree with? (FF)


Beliefs

The Lord Jesus Christ

We believe in the deity of Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God. We believe in His substitutionary death for all men, His resurrection, and His eventual return to judge the world.
Salvation

We believe all men are born with a sinful nature and that the work of the Cross was to redeem man from the power of sin. We believe that this salvation is available to all who will receive it.
The Holy Spirit

We believe in the existence of the Holy Spirit as the third person of the Trinity and in His interaction with man. We believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit as manifested by the fruit and the gifts of the Spirit.
The Sacred Scripture

We believe in the scripture as the inspired Word of God and that it is the complete revelation of God's will for mankind. We believe in the absolute authority of the scripture to govern the affairs of men.
Stewardship

We believe that every man is the steward of his life and resources which ultimately belong to God. We believe that tithing is a measure of obedience to the scriptural principles of stewardship.
The Church

We believe in the Church as the eternal and universal Body of Christ consisting of all those who have accepted the work of the atonement. We believe in the need for a local assembly of believers for the purpose of evangelism and edification.
Prayer and Praise

We believe in the worship of the Lord through singing, clapping, and the lifting of hands. We believe in the authority of the believer to ask freely of the Lord for his needs.
Body Ministry

We believe in the ministry of the Holy Spirit to the Church body through the anointing of oil by the elders of the church.
Evangelism

We believe that evangelism is the obligation of every follower of Jesus Christ. The Lord commands us to go out and make disciples of all the earth. We believe that each person is first responsible to evangelism in their own family as the Holy Spirit leads them and gives them the ability.
Water Baptism

We believe in the ordinance of water baptism by immersion in obedience to the Word of God. All those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior should be baptized in water as a public profession of their faith in Christ and to experience what the Bible calls the "circumcision of the Spirit."
Our Commitment to Israel

We believe in the promise of Genesis 12:3 regarding the Jewish people and the nation of Israel. We believe that this is an eternal covenant between God and the seed of Abraham to which God is faithful.
The Priesthood of the Believer

We believe that every believer has a unique relationship to the Lord. As His children, every Christian has immediate access to the throne of Grace and the ability to manifest the power of the Lord Jesus Christ in ministry.

I disagree with the implications behind the italicized section, and I believe the church is spiritual Israel which includes all, biological Jews and biological gentiles, who believe the gospel.

[Sola_Fide]

http://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/love-rejected/

I'm glad I don't attend Kent Hogan's church.

Lawrence Vance should focus on himself and his own idolatry. He preaches the false gospel of Arminianism
which is every bit as repugnant and evil as statism in the pulpit.

[Brett85]

Lawrence Vance should focus on himself and his own idolatry. He preaches the false gospel of Arminianism
which is every bit as repugnant and evil as statism in the pulpit.

You're back.

[Sola_Fide]

http://www.jhm.org/Home/About/Beliefs

please lmk which beliefs you do not agree with? (FF)


Beliefs

The Lord Jesus Christ

We believe in the deity of Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God. We believe in His substitutionary death for all men, His resurrection, and His eventual return to judge the world.
Salvation

We believe all men are born with a sinful nature and that the work of the Cross was to redeem man from the power of sin. We believe that this salvation is available to all who will receive it.
The Holy Spirit

We believe in the existence of the Holy Spirit as the third person of the Trinity and in His interaction with man. We believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit as manifested by the fruit and the gifts of the Spirit.
The Sacred Scripture

We believe in the scripture as the inspired Word of God and that it is the complete revelation of God's will for mankind. We believe in the absolute authority of the scripture to govern the affairs of men.
Stewardship

We believe that every man is the steward of his life and resources which ultimately belong to God. We believe that tithing is a measure of obedience to the scriptural principles of stewardship.
The Church

We believe in the Church as the eternal and universal Body of Christ consisting of all those who have accepted the work of the atonement. We believe in the need for a local assembly of believers for the purpose of evangelism and edification.
Prayer and Praise

We believe in the worship of the Lord through singing, clapping, and the lifting of hands. We believe in the authority of the believer to ask freely of the Lord for his needs.
Body Ministry

We believe in the ministry of the Holy Spirit to the Church body through the anointing of oil by the elders of the church.
Evangelism

We believe that evangelism is the obligation of every follower of Jesus Christ. The Lord commands us to go out and make disciples of all the earth. We believe that each person is first responsible to evangelism in their own family as the Holy Spirit leads them and gives them the ability.
Water Baptism

We believe in the ordinance of water baptism by immersion in obedience to the Word of God. All those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior should be baptized in water as a public profession of their faith in Christ and to experience what the Bible calls the "circumcision of the Spirit."
Our Commitment to Israel

We believe in the promise of Genesis 12:3 regarding the Jewish people and the nation of Israel. We believe that this is an eternal covenant between God and the seed of Abraham to which God is faithful.
The Priesthood of the Believer

We believe that every believer has a unique relationship to the Lord. As His children, every Christian has immediate access to the throne of Grace and the ability to manifest the power of the Lord Jesus Christ in ministry.

The bolded part is wrong. In the books of Romans and Galatians, Paul says the seed of Abraham are the Jews and Gentiles who believe the gospel. One is a child of Abraham by faith, not genetics.

[Christian Liberty]

Lawrence Vance should focus on himself and his own idolatry. He preaches the false gospel of Arminianism
which is every bit as repugnant and evil as statism in the pulpit.

Glad to see that you're back

I'm no fan of Arminianism and I understand that Vance's theology isn't the best. I still think he's an excellent commentator when it comes to political issues and military worship though. I've never seen Vance defend Arminianism on LRC, so I think he's well worth reading even though I don't agree with him on soteriology.

Heck, I read a comment by Ron Paul once (admittedly, it was a one time comment that could perhaps be interpreted more than one way) that seemed to imply that the atheist Murray Rothbard is in heaven. Does that invalidate the excellent political points that Ron Paul makes?

For what its worth, I see Arminianism and statism as problematic in different ways. I expect that some people are going to have heretical theology. I don't like it, but I understand it, people are going to have disagreements about how to interpret certain Bible passages and some people are going to come to what I would deem to be silly interpretations. But there's absolutely no excuse for military idolatry in the church no matter what you believe theologically. Military worship comes from a misunderstanding of facts and morals which any Christian (I don't even care if they're false Christians) with internet connection should be able to figure out.