Homeowners Assoc. increasingly banning pot.

[Anti Federalist]

Pot may be legal, but homeowner agreements can ban

By KRISTEN WYATT, Associated Press | July 25, 2014 | Updated: July 25, 2014 2:15am

http://www.chron.com/news/us/article...an-5645965.php

DENVER (AP) — Pot may be legal in some states — but the neighbors don't have to like it.

Marijuana and hemp have joined wacky paint colors and unsightly fences as common neighborhood disputes facing homeowners' associations. Though a few HOAs have willingly changed their rules to accommodate for legal marijuana use or home-growing, many more are banning home pot smoking.

Homeowners' associations can't ban members from using marijuana in their homes when it's legal. But if neighbors can see or smell weed, the law is clear — HOAs have every right to regulate the drug as a nuisance, or a threat to children along the lines of a swimming pool with no fence.

"The fact that people may be legally entitled to smoke doesn't mean they can do it wherever they want, any more than they could walk into a restaurant and light up a cigarette," said Richard Thompson, who owns a management consulting company that specializes in condominium and homeowner associations.

Thompson said his home condo development in Portland, Oregon, is a prime example of how marijuana's growing acceptance has sparked neighbor conflicts.

"As soon as spring and summer come around, we hear complaints about marijuana smoke because people are out on their patios and they have the windows down," he said.

It's not clear how many homeowners' associations have confronted marijuana conflicts in the 23 states with some form of legal marijuana. But lawyers who specialize in HOA disputes, as well as a Colorado regulatory agency that advises HOAs, say there are growing conflicts among neighbors who want to smoke pot and others who don't want to see it or smell it.

"What we're really seeing more now is regulating the associations' common areas," such as smoke wafting onto playgrounds or others' porches, said Erin McManis, an attorney in Phoenix whose firm represents hundreds of Arizona HOAs.

The Carrillo Ranch homeowners association in Chandler, Arizona, earlier this year took the rare step of withdrawing a proposed ban on residents smoking medical marijuana in their front and backyards and on their patios.

The HOA planned a meeting on the topic in March, but withdrew the proposal after many residents opposed the ban as too harsh.

"This is a personal-freedom issue where people were going to dictate how other people should live," Carrillo Ranch resident Tom LaBonte told The (Arizona) Republic in February, when the HOA dropped its proposal.

HOA lawyers say the Carrillo Ranch case illustrates the value of HOAs when the law changes, as with marijuana.

"Coming together and working on issues is something associations have been doing for a long time," McManis said. "We're hopeful that's how it's going to go forward now with medical marijuana."

Smoke isn't the only neighbor complaint posed by loosening marijuana laws. Growing pot and hemp is prompting neighbor disputes, too.

A suburban Denver retiree learned the hard way this spring that he needed neighbors' permission before growing hemp. Jim Denny, of Brighton, Colorado, learned about marijuana's non-intoxicating cousin and decided to try the crop on a 75-by-100-foot plot in his yard.

But Denny's hemp plot ran afoul of his homeowners' association, which ruled the hemp experiment unacceptable.

"As soon as they heard about it, they said, 'We're not going to let anyone grow marijuana here,'" Denny said. "I explained to them that hemp is not marijuana, but they were dead-set against it."

So with his hemp plants about 2 feet tall, Denny invited hemp activists to come transplant them to somewhere without opposition from a homeowner association. Denny sold the plants for about $3 each, a good price for a plant whose seeds can cost up to $10 each because it can't be imported.

Hemp activists volunteered to pay Denny's fines for flouting the HOA, which could have run to $600 a day. But Denny decided that living peacefully with his neighbors trumped making a political point.

"I had people calling up and saying, 'It's just a shame; we'll pay your fines all the way through to the end.' But I decided in the end not to fight it," said Denny, a technical writer and former software engineer. "At the end of the day, I live here."

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Well that smoke does contribute to global warming.

[limequat]

1) Don't live in a HOA. When I was in the market, I made a point of telling every realtor that I could, that I would NOT be part of a HOA.
2) If you are in a HOA, take heart. They are usually quite small and easy to take over. Find a few like-minded neighbors, get elected and get rid of the rules you don't want.

[pcosmar]

1) Don't live in a HOA. When I was in the market, I made a point of telling every realtor that I could, that I would NOT be part of a HOA.
2) If you are in a HOA, take heart. They are usually quite small and easy to take over. Find a few like-minded neighbors, get elected and get rid of the rules you don't want.

I ran across some when I was looking into buying a house years ago. I had never heard of them before,, but a quick look into one scratched them off my list permanently.

[CaptUSA]

I actually think this is ideal. Small governance. (Although, some of those HOA's can get pretty big.)

If only all regulations were set up this way...

But here's the caveat: Don't change the rules without a consensus. If there is someone opposed to the change, they should receive some sort of compensation. This keeps the rules from changing on residents. That way, people who like the rules can decide if that's where they want to move. And people who dislike them will find somewhere else. The market will dictate which communities' rules are favored.

Choices! Talk about liberty!

[JK/SEA]

i assume they banned booze as well?....

this will end up in court, with Thompson needing to down a few zolofts to keep himself in check....effin moron..

[TheTyke]

I always thought that a way to respect property rights while having communities that got along, was having local agreements... sort of like voluntarily agreeing if you want to buy there and move in, you will keep certain standards. Sort of akin to Rand's idea that those who receive government contracts should agree not to lobby for more money.

Theoretically it sounds appealing. But I haven't really researched it enough to know if HOAs are usually a free market negotiation, or if there are laws giving them unfair advantages (like unions.)

[Slave Mentality]

Been chiefing outside since forever. Slave Mentality's rules for engagement:

1. Back porch or somewhere where you can't be directly seen administering the sweet relief
2. Only bring enough outside to smoke or eat if you need to
3. Don't give a $#@!
4. Don't give a $#@!
5. Your neighbors probably burn too
6. Did I mention that I don't give a $#@!?

I had a busy body call the cops on us for our outdoor activities back when I was in college. When the two cops showed up we had already burned the evidence and knew they could not hassle us, even though they tried to get inside the house. We had so much fun jacking with those idiots talking like they could do whatever. We lit one up right after they left. It is good sport if you know what you are doing.

"Officer, I don't believe you have the nose of a bloodhound that can track pot down in a cracker box neighborhood with 200 units, but yeah we smelled it too coming from over that way...he he he he" They were pissed! 20 years ago and it still brings much joy.

[limequat]

I always thought that a way to respect property rights while having communities that got along, was having local agreements... sort of like voluntarily agreeing if you want to buy there and move in, you will keep certain standards. Sort of akin to Rand's idea that those who receive government contracts should agree not to lobby for more money.

Theoretically it sounds appealing. But I haven't really researched it enough to know if HOAs are usually a free market negotiation, or if there are laws giving them unfair advantages (like unions.)

My experience with HOAs is quite the opposite of anything approaching liberty or free-market ideals.
They are always run by busybodies who have way too much time. The rules can get downright draconian, right down to the color of your house, where you park your car, even the kind of car you're allowed to park (say, no trucks for instance).
Here's an epic story about a HOA that changed the rules to disallow outdoor parking. http://www.offroaders.com/news/Dolly...Booted-APS.htm In this case our hero outsmarted the tyrants, but at the expense of much labor and subterfuge.

Anyway here's the problems with HOAs:
1) Many members never read the rules. They are often pretty bad.
2) The rules change! People may buy the house thinking, "I'm good, I always cut my grass on Sundays". And then a new rule is added...
3) HOAs -like any government- attract little tyrants. Does a guy who has no interest in government want to give up Monday night football to go to a panty-waist HOA meeting? $#@! no. That leaves the busy bodies and wannabe bureaucrats, who now have cart blanch to inflict any pain they can get away with. And they do.

[oyarde]

I am surprised HOA's still exist . I would not.

[Brian4Liberty]

My experience with HOAs is quite the opposite of anything approaching liberty or free-market ideals.
They are always run by busybodies who have way too much time. The rules can get downright draconian, right down to the color of your house, where you park your car, even the kind of car you're allowed to park (say, no trucks for instance).
Here's an epic story about a HOA that changed the rules to disallow outdoor parking. http://www.offroaders.com/news/Dolly...Booted-APS.htm In this case our hero outsmarted the tyrants, but at the expense of much labor and subterfuge.

Anyway here's the problems with HOAs:
1) Many members never read the rules. They are often pretty bad.
2) The rules change! People may buy the house thinking, "I'm good, I always cut my grass on Sundays". And then a new rule is added...
3) HOAs -like any government- attract little tyrants. Does a guy who has no interest in government want to give up Monday night football to go to a panty-waist HOA meeting? $#@! no. That leaves the busy bodies and wannabe bureaucrats, who now have cart blanch to inflict any pain they can get away with. And they do.

That sums it up. And many HOAs end up essentially being run by property managers who are the "experts" hired by the HOA board. Becomes just like government.


"What? You didn't read the contract?!"

[tommyrp12]

"The fact that people may be legally entitled to smoke doesn't mean they can do it wherever they want, any more than they could walk into a restaurant and light up a cigarette," said Richard Thompson, who owns a management consulting company that specializes in condominium and homeowner associations.

There is a big difference between a private home and a public restaurant. I never liked the idea of HOA's. I am not going to spend a boatload of cash on a house only to have people to tell me what I can and can't do on my own property. If they want to get together voluntarily to pay for street clean up or whatever that's fine but they have no right to tell me what to do or start levying fines for something I am doing on my own property.

[surf]

hoa board treasurer here. hoas are not for everyone, but they are if you are too goddamn lazy to pick a weed. in my defense, i'll just point out that there have been proposals to create rules that would make pot smoking on the property a fine-worthy offense and yours truly has always kept these from being adopted. something that also shows the power a board can have.

our job is all about keeping expenses down and keeping the place pretty - and personally I do a lot of the work around here unpaid to help us accomplish this because most contractors see an hoa and their eyes light up and their bids puff up. I joined to live on the water, not because I can see much value in belonging to an hoa.

w/that said, this is a condo so there isn't anywhere (other than inside a unit) where pot could be grown on our property. if someone's unit stunk like a pot grow room and caused other units to as well, we undoubtedly have a rule to get rid of it.

so, if you're looking for a more freedom friendly hoa (in Redmond), look for one with a libertarian on the board.

[erowe1]

More power to them.

[Brian4Liberty]

our job is all about keeping expenses down and keeping the place pretty - and personally I do a lot of the work around here unpaid to help us accomplish this because most contractors see an hoa and their eyes light up and their bids puff up. I joined to live on the water, not because I can see much value in belonging to an hoa.

Got that right. I believe that some contractors go as far as to buy a unit, and put a shill on the Board to push for big projects. Next thing you know, the treasury is drained and you're getting a $20k assessment per unit.

[Anti Federalist]

I hate petty and arbitrary power, and it does not matter to me whether it is wielded by an HOA, a corporation or government.

[pcosmar]

w/that said, this is a condo so there isn't anywhere (other than inside a unit) where pot could be grown on our property. if someone's unit stunk like a pot grow room and caused other units to as well, we undoubtedly have a rule to get rid of it.

I would be complaining about everything anyone ever cooked,,Every toilet that flushed,, if the place was that poorly built.

If you can smell a plant growing in another apartment,, the place is a $#@! box.

If you can smell my cigarette,, cigar or pipe then the place is poorly designed and constructed.
As is most cracker box construction.

And idiots are paying high dollar for that trendy crap.

[tommyrp12]

w/that said, this is a condo so there isn't anywhere (other than inside a unit) where pot could be grown on our property. if someone's unit stunk like a pot grow room and caused other units to as well, we undoubtedly have a rule to get rid of it.

I can see that happening but I would try to talk to them about it in a letter or in person, rather than start making demand's. Like neighbor's should. I can't imagine them being anything but resentful at the idea of being told what to do by other adult's.

[CaptUSA]

I hate petty and arbitrary power, and it does not matter to me whether it is wielded by an HOA, a corporation or government.

Right. Which is why you wouldn't want to live under any of these. I think that is a good choice to have.

But that fact remains that there are people who would like to live under certain rules. HOA's provide them that opportunity while not infringing on someone else who chooses not to live there. Personally, I think this is the best option for liberty lovers. It allows those who want rules to have them and those who don't want them to live free.

To me, the biggest problem is when the rules are changed. They are usually changed to benefit one person over another. (just like in every other system of governance.) But if you had to compensate those who didn't want the rule changes, you would pretty much need a consensus to change anything. Then, people could make informed choices about where they wanted to live.

[surf]

I would be complaining about everything anyone ever cooked,,Every toilet that flushed,, if the place was that poorly built.

If you can smell a plant growing in another apartment,, the place is a $#@! box.

If you can smell my cigarette,, cigar or pipe then the place is poorly designed and constructed.
As is most cracker box construction.

And idiots are paying high dollar for that trendy crap.

it's an older building cheaply constructed in the early '70s with many common walls and fewer ventilation options, but I think you're missing the point here. I could use loud music late at night as an example. where I live we have a bit of a unique group of neighbors that tend to get along, respect each other, and figure things out for themselves. if you live anywhere even remotely suburban, you have neighbors.

I didn't mean to imply that my hoa is the type that writes a bunch of letters (or any), but we do have certain house rules that inhibit an ability to be what would commonly be considered a $#@!ty neighbor. we're small.

[pcosmar]

I didn't mean to imply that my hoa is the type that writes a bunch of letters

Yours may not be,, many are.
I have lived in apartments, and rentals in neighborhoods.. I looked into some HOAs when I was first purchasing a home..
I want nothing to do with such. It defeats the purpose of owning a home.

[jllundqu]

Never ever ever live in an HOA area....

Any group that has the power to take your home away from you for not pulling weeds or parking on the street is anathema to free living. (Government included)

[DamianTV]

Always try on the other shoe.

What happens if we replace Pot with Tobacco?

There are so many things that can offend people that they can not be counted. In a free country, each person can choose for themselves. At the same time, those free citizens dont get to outlaw something else simply because it offends them. A perfect example is "someone elses music". Their music is offensive, but not mine. Suuuuure. Screaming children (during play) are also a nuisance. So are Lawnmowers, Mosquitos, Unmowed Lawns, Yard Gnomes, etc. To me, HOA's, although well intentioned by their supporters, are just a small form of potential for Neighborhood Tyranny. Most people can use common sense to get along, unfortunately, most people dont attend these HOA meetings. As we all know, there will always be "that one $#@!" that seeks the power of the HOA to impose their will on others.

[specsaregood]

./

[DamianTV]

On that note, it might not be a bad idea to ban it via HOA. What with the cops disregarding local laws in lieu of state laws (philly) or the cops and feds disregarding state laws in lieu of federal laws. Banning it via HOA might very well lessen your chances of losing your dog or your wife to the cops raiding the wrong house on a whim.

I do agree that a more Localized from of Govt (which is basically what a HOA functions as) is better in concept and in application as the Governed have a more powerful voice. The same doesnt seem to hold true (still agreeing) when the Governed becomes millions upon millions of people as the voice of the individuals with real solutions are drowned out in all the rhetoric.

[FindLiberty]

I hate petty and arbitrary power, and it does not matter to me whether it is wielded by an HOA, a corporation or government.

SO TRUE !!!

[phill4paul]

Your neighborhood, county, state, country end where my drive way begins. That is all.