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Thread: Adultery

  1. #1

    Adultery

    Note that when I say "government" in this thread, I could mean either a minarchist state or competative ancap PDAs and arbitrators, I don't think it really matters for the sake of this particular discussion. So, if you're an ancap, as I am, assume "government" means some kind of free market civil law alternative.

    So I've kind of always just assumed that the libertarian position on adultery was that, regardless of the morality of adultery (I think most of us would say that its immoral, but that's irrelevant), that its an issue that the government should have nothing to do with, and that it should be up to the parties involved to deal with.

    I still think that's the correct position, but after debating with a theonomist briefly today, I'm kind of thinking about this from a different angle that I haven't really thought about yet.

    Let's assume that government has nothing to do with marriage other than enforcing contracts (libertarians generally believe government should enforce contracts). Let's say a couple comes up with a contract and make marital vows to forsake all others and stay together until one party should die.

    Than one party commits adultery.

    Could it be argued that this is fraud, since it is a violation of the agreed upon contract? Would this fall under contract enforcement, according to libertarian theory? Why or why not?



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  3. #2
    It's only fraud if the adulterer's intent from the start was to cheat. If no, then it's simply breach of contract.
    "Like an army falling, one by one by one" - Linkin Park

  4. #3
    If deemed fraudulent the fair thing to do is the adulterer gets 0% of assets when they split.

    Breach of contract still favors assets towards the "victim" but it's not a surefire thing. Circumstance would influence the divide of assets.
    "Like an army falling, one by one by one" - Linkin Park

  5. #4
    Ask someone who commits adultery how that worked out for them in a divorce hearing. Then ask yourself if there isn't indeed already contract enforcement at the state level for this action.

  6. #5
    It could be punishable. People can make whatever contracts they wish. Ideally, the consequence is laid out in the contract.

  7. #6
    The whole marriage "contract" is part of government. The solution is to never get "officially" married, just have the ceremony and that's it. You don't need the government's permission to change your name either. If you need to plead with the government to do something as simple as change your name, you're not a free man. The process of divorce in this country is so $#@!ty I would rather fight in the middle east for a week.
    Last edited by Warrior_of_Freedom; 07-24-2014 at 01:45 PM.
    A savage barbaric tribal society where thugs parade the streets and illegally assault and murder innocent civilians, yeah that is the alternative to having police. Oh wait, that is the police

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    - Edward R. Murrow

    ...I think we have moral obligations to disobey unjust laws, because non-cooperation with evil is as much as a moral obligation as cooperation with good. - MLK Jr.

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  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    Would this fall under contract enforcement, according to libertarian theory?
    Yes. For the reason that you explained.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Intoxiklown View Post
    Ask someone who commits adultery how that worked out for them in a divorce hearing. Then ask yourself if there isn't indeed already contract enforcement at the state level for this action.
    So when a woman commits adultery, the man gets custody of the kids, the house, child support, and maintenance...?
    "I shall bring justice to Westeros. Every man shall reap what he has sown, from the highest lord to the lowest gutter rat. They have made my kingdom bleed, and I do not forget that."
    -Stannis Baratheon



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Philhelm View Post
    So when a woman commits adultery, the man gets custody of the kids, the house, child support, and maintenance...?
    Nowadays, yes. Unless he is stupid, has poor lawyer, ect.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Philhelm View Post
    So when a woman commits adultery, the man gets custody of the kids, the house, child support, and maintenance...?
    She can't get a house that has no home insurance and has been burned to the ground
    A savage barbaric tribal society where thugs parade the streets and illegally assault and murder innocent civilians, yeah that is the alternative to having police. Oh wait, that is the police

    We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home.
    - Edward R. Murrow

    ...I think we have moral obligations to disobey unjust laws, because non-cooperation with evil is as much as a moral obligation as cooperation with good. - MLK Jr.

    How to trigger a liberal: "I didn't get vaccinated."

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Intoxiklown View Post
    Ask someone who commits adultery how that worked out for them in a divorce hearing. Then ask yourself if there isn't indeed already contract enforcement at the state level for this action.
    Oh, I have no doubt regarding current law. I'm trying to think about it in terms of the NAP and libertarian theory.

    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Yes. For the reason that you explained.
    Yeah, I think you are right.

  14. #12
    I don't think that the person who commits adultery is necessarily the person who broke the contract or wedding vows first. Also, it may be difficult to ascertain for certain whether the other person may have committed adultery first and simply not been caught. But even if they didn't, let's say they simply were just really unreasonable and decided to withhold sex from their partner because they did not meet their unreasonable expectations. I don't really see adultery as necessarily immoral, although it certainly can be immoral.
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  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Intoxiklown View Post
    Nowadays, yes. Unless he is stupid, has poor lawyer, ect.
    I wouldn't assume that what happens in Alabama can be applied across the country. Most courts don't give a crap about adultery.
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

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  16. #14
    It is not a "contract" that is enforceable by any human court.
    AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. "What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.
    Marriage is defined by and subject to God alone..
    Please feel free to discuss it with Him.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
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  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    It is not a "contract" that is enforceable by any human court.


    Marriage is defined by and subject to God alone..
    Please feel free to discuss it with Him.
    I understand, but if two people decide to make a marriage contract, then what?

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    Note that when I say "government" in this thread, I could mean either a minarchist state or competative ancap PDAs and arbitrators, I don't think it really matters for the sake of this particular discussion. So, if you're an ancap, as I am, assume "government" means some kind of free market civil law alternative.

    So I've kind of always just assumed that the libertarian position on adultery was that, regardless of the morality of adultery (I think most of us would say that its immoral, but that's irrelevant), that its an issue that the government should have nothing to do with, and that it should be up to the parties involved to deal with.

    I still think that's the correct position, but after debating with a theonomist briefly today, I'm kind of thinking about this from a different angle that I haven't really thought about yet.

    Let's assume that government has nothing to do with marriage other than enforcing contracts (libertarians generally believe government should enforce contracts). Let's say a couple comes up with a contract and make marital vows to forsake all others and stay together until one party should die.

    Than one party commits adultery.

    Could it be argued that this is fraud, since it is a violation of the agreed upon contract? Would this fall under contract enforcement, according to libertarian theory? Why or why not?
    There would probably be less people marrying each other for financial benefits, and less prospecting beneficiaries. I think the government should get its nose out of all marriage.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainAmerica View Post
    There would probably be less people marrying each other for financial benefits, and less prospecting beneficiaries. I think the government should get its nose out of all marriage.
    Yes, I agree. But even if government got out of marriage (as it should) people could still make contracts with each other. Hence the original question.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    Yes, I agree. But even if government got out of marriage (as it should) people could still make contracts with each other. Hence the original question.
    people can make contracts if they want between themselves yes, but I doubt it would be common .

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    So I've kind of always just assumed that the libertarian position on adultery was that, regardless of the morality of adultery (I think most of us would say that its immoral, but that's irrelevant), that its an issue that the government should have nothing to do with, and that it should be up to the parties involved to deal with.
    Agreed. I've never met a libertarian that thought the government should be involved with it. Sadly, this was one of the black eyes on freedom in New Hampshire. Thankfully, a free staters, anarchist, Democrat state rep. sponsored a bill that passed this year and New Hampshire finally got rid of this crap!

    I don't care if the Puritans created the law in 1791. I get it, it was historic. Still, it was evil.


    Adultery in New England
    Love free or die
    Time to check into the Motel New Hampshire
    Apr 19th 2014
    http://www.economist.com/news/united...ve-free-or-die

    AFTER 223 years New Hampshire is about to make adultery legal. A law in 1791 called for convicted adulterers to be paraded on the gallows for an hour and then “publicly whipped not exceeding 39 stripes” before being sent to prison and fined £100 (probably more than a year’s wages in those days).

    The penalty has grown milder since then. Adulterers now face a $1,200 fine, which is not enforced. New Hampshire’s state House of Representatives voted to repeal the law in February; the state Senate is expected to follow soon. Not everyone is happy. A letter to the Concord Monitor huffed that adultery was “repugnant” and should remain a crime.

    More than 20 states still have laws against adultery.
    Last edited by Keith and stuff; 07-24-2014 at 03:16 PM.
    Lifetime member of more than 1 national gun organization and the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance. Part of Young Americans for Liberty and Campaign for Liberty. Free State Project participant and multi-year Free Talk Live AMPlifier.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Warrior_of_Freedom View Post
    The whole marriage "contract" is part of government. The solution is to never get "officially" married, just have the ceremony and that's it. You don't need the government's permission to change your name either. If you need to plead with the government to do something as simple as change your name, you're not a free man. The process of divorce in this country is so $#@!ty I would rather fight in the middle east for a week.
    THIS is the answer.

    Gov has no business in marriage; a license for anything was always for something that would otherwise be unlawful. Marriage is not unlawful and neither is driving a car.

    The only reason gov got involved with marriage in the first place was to stop interracial marriages.
    There is no spoon.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith and stuff View Post
    I don't care if the Puritans created the law in 1791. I get it, it was historic. Still, it was evil.
    Adultery is the evil, woe to those who call good evil, and evil good.

    Love free or die
    Last edited by William Tell; 07-24-2014 at 05:58 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
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  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    Adultery is the evil, woe to those who call good evil, and evil good.
    I made no opinion on adultery. I commented on the law. I didn't comment on personal opinions or contracts or anything like that.

    Supporting an adultery law is evil. I'd think at least 90% of people and every single liberty person I've ever met in person would agree to that. There is no debate on the issue. Even statists Democrats mostly agree that an adultery law is wrong.
    Last edited by Keith and stuff; 07-26-2014 at 10:47 AM.
    Lifetime member of more than 1 national gun organization and the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance. Part of Young Americans for Liberty and Campaign for Liberty. Free State Project participant and multi-year Free Talk Live AMPlifier.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Intoxiklown View Post
    Nowadays, yes. Unless he is stupid, has poor lawyer, ect.
    Bull$#@!!

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith and stuff View Post
    There is no debate on the issue.
    If you say so


    Quote Originally Posted by Keith and stuff View Post
    Supporting an adultery law is evil.
    The Almighty made an adultery law....
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe






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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    If you say so

    The Almighty made an adultery law....
    I certainly say that I've never met a liberty person in person that supports an Adultery law. I've met 1,000s of liberty people in person and none of them have ever said that someone should be killed if they commit adultery. My guess is almost no one on Earth would support that, even though it was a typical law in the US in the 1700s. If anyone on Earth disagrees with this, please explain why you support the killing of people.
    Last edited by Keith and stuff; 07-25-2014 at 08:09 AM.
    Lifetime member of more than 1 national gun organization and the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance. Part of Young Americans for Liberty and Campaign for Liberty. Free State Project participant and multi-year Free Talk Live AMPlifier.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    The Almighty made an adultery law....
    If He did, He certainly seems lax on enforcement.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith and stuff View Post
    I certainly saw that I've never met a liberty person in person that supports an Adultery law. I've met 1,000s of liberty people in person and none of them have ever said that someone should be killed if they commit adultery. My guess is almost no one on Earth would support that, even though it was a typical law in the US in the 1700s. If anyone on Earth disagrees with this, please explain why you support the killing of people.
    It should be left up to the husband to decide.
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  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    I understand, but if two people decide to make a marriage contract, then what?
    If two people decide what..?

    God ordains Marriage.. Not the State.. nor any group of people.

    Now, if you get some state sanctioned contract,,, that is what you have.
    It is not a marriage. (unless God says it is)
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    If He did, He certainly seems lax on enforcement.
    He just couldn't find anyone who hadn't broken the law to enforce it.
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  34. #30
    Traditional marriage under law creates a legal union between man and wife - together, they are a single, unified legal person - a recognition that they are supposed to be also one in flesh and spirit. Adultery as a crime has a victim in the marriage unity, which is betrayed by the adulterer. Without the concept of unity in marriage the concept of adultery is a non-sequitur.

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