Creating a Free Town or County

[LibForestPaul]

Waco, pop
-quite a few domestic terrorists.

[LibForestPaul]

you will be free when you are ready to die and kill.

[PaulConventionWV]

I think so too (it was in Guyana, South America)

Oh, my mistake.

[helmuth_hubener]

Great post.

What would be the first step in your reboot?

I would be interested in having any ideas you have. But as a rough starting idea, I was thinking that we could first identify people who would support such a thing. I have brought this up occasionally and as such have a little list of RPFers who have PMed me over the years that they are very excited about the possibility. If there is enough interest, perhaps we can convince Bryan, the site owner, to set us up a little sub-section where we can talk and build a community.

Then we can find some sort of crowdfunding-type site that we can talk into listing the project on their site, with the variant that number of pledgers is a limiting factor as well as total amount of dollars pledged. Or we could find some other trustworthy and uninterested third party; an escrow service perhaps.

So the first step is to gauge the feasibility by trying to find as many people as possible who are so sick of not having liberty and committed to getting liberty that they are willing to uproot themselves and relocate. Then we can gather together here as like-minded individuals and take stock of the situation.

[helmuth_hubener]

I agree although I would change the wording from "take over" to "join with the locals to move the county/town closer to liberty." Words matter

Yes, that does sound better, and is a much better description of what we'd be actually doing.

[helmuth_hubener]

While I love the idea...

I have to wonder, is such a thing possible?

If you take over a town, the County, State and Federal Codes and Law still rule you.

How do you get around that?

Just curious

Having a very libertarian town or county would go a very long way to creating the kind of society we want in that town or county. Not all the way, true. But you'd best at least hold a small hill somewhere before you spend too much time making elaborate plans for conquering Europe.

[helmuth_hubener]

Here is some data for you, counties under 1k pop (2012 est)

Loving County, Texas 71
Kalawao County, Hawaii 90
...

Thanks, Tony! And as a note, I have personally seen with my own eyes both of the smallest: Loving County, out in the flatlands of Texas, and the leper colony on Molokai.

[helmuth_hubener]

Federal and state law depends to a large extent on local enforcement. If city and county law enforcement are limited in their authority, State and federal law will still be in effect in theory, but not so much in practice. However, if someone complains to a State or Federal agency about something (like labor law violations, for example) it is likely that state or federal agents would come to town and do their thing.

So you couldn't create a fully free town or county but you could move a fair bit in the right direction.

It takes a lot of resources for federal and state governments to enforce federal and state laws, especially if a local government decides to go against them. For instance, marijuana is still illegal on the federal level, meaning Washington and Colorado are technically defying the US government. Obviously, there are limits to what you can do, but there are a great number of local codes and edicts that can be changed or done away with that will greatly improve freedom and won't attract too much attention.

From what I can tell, the Free State Project in NH has done some good things for that state, so the only real issue is getting enough people on board.

Exactly, men!

[helmuth_hubener]

Unfortunately, Kalawao County is actually the old leper colony. The population is limited to the living original inhabitants and no new inhabitants are allowed.

I actually know people on Molokai. I have family there. I am pretty confident that this could be changed, if need be. So that option is not closed to us.

[helmuth_hubener]

This is in the permian basin. I'm not familiar with Texas geography but it looks like its around 50 miles out of Midland/Odessa area which is the 'boomiest' area for oil jobs in Texas.

There are, indeed, many, many oil wells sprouting out of the flat, flat earth there. And it is flat. As I was driving down the highway on my scouting expedition to check out the county, I had to at one point stop the car and just look all around me at the panorama of astonishing, other-worldly flatness, seemingly stretching out into the infinite. Just total, barren flatness, with the ribbon of straight, perfectly-flat road stretching through it. It was very beautiful, at least I thought so.

Loving is right next-door to the sizable town of Pecos, and yes, it's close to Odessa/Midland.

[ZENemy]

I would be interested in having any ideas you have. But as a rough starting idea, I was thinking that we could first identify people who would support such a thing. I have brought this up occasionally and as such have a little list of RPFers who have PMed me over the years that they are very excited about the possibility. If there is enough interest, perhaps we can convince Bryan, the site owner, to set us up a little sub-section where we can talk and build a community.

Then we can find some sort of crowdfunding-type site that we can talk into listing the project on their site, with the variant that number of pledgers is a limiting factor as well as total amount of dollars pledged. Or we could find some other trustworthy and uninterested third party; an escrow service perhaps.

So the first step is to gauge the feasibility by trying to find as many people as possible who are so sick of not having liberty and committed to getting liberty that they are willing to uproot themselves and relocate. Then we can gather together here as like-minded individuals and take stock of the situation.

I agree.

I feel that if we are ever to move forward in a somewhat focused effort that we first must collect those that are ready to stop complaining, bitching and telling everyone how it "cant be done" or "its been done before".

Its a good thing that its been done before, good, we have tons of mistakes that we do not have to make by learning from past examples.

I like the idea of starting small...something like moving into and creating the idea of "liberty" apartment complexes all over the country. Maybe like a traveling freestateproject? I know this is not the greatest idea but its just something Ive randomly thought about, I think whats most important is for local like minded people to get together IN REAL LIFE and discuss these idea. Just packing 30 people into a room in REAL life, not in a damn chat window. I feel flesh and blood discussions in one night can do a lot more than years of back and forth on facebook or other social sites.

What I would love to see is people to stop saying "that will never work...you are wasting your time" and start saying "that's gonna be tough but we should make it work and can make it work" I feel that many people miss how important just TALKING about a move like this is. Once we are all talking about it and have agreed that we are going to make it work then NOTHING can stop us.

[erowe1]

I don't think such a thing is possible, this side of the return of Jesus.

Freedom is an asymptote. We might be able to get closer and closer to it, but we'll never quite be there.

[helmuth_hubener]

I don't think such a thing is possible, this side of the return of Jesus.

Freedom is an asymptote. We might be able to get closer and closer to it, but we'll never quite be there.

That's all we're trying to do, erowe! Get closer to it! We're not trying to set up some kind of heaven-on-earth, pierce the fifth dimension, nor even to re-found Shangri-La or Atlantis. Our goals are more modest. Don't go all meta-physical on us!

Is this a straight line segment? Or is it a segment of an asymptote?



It very well may not be a straight line segment. But it will probably do for practical purposes! At least a lot better than this:

[helmuth_hubener]

you will be free when you are ready to die and kill.

Umm, how about when I'm ready to live?

[MedgeFTL]

Many people have pointed out that the Free State Project is flawed, and it is, everything is flawed, but I have been watching people come up with the idea to move someplace else for years. The VAST majority of these projects fail before the first person moves, but even the ones that have had people move, have had no where near the impact the FSP has had. Before you expend valuable time planning the next failure, please, read this list of past failures, study them, learn from them. This really is a fool's errand.

https://www.facebook.com/MoveHereProject

[helmuth_hubener]

Many people have pointed out that the Free State Project is flawed, and it is, everything is flawed, but I have been watching people come up with the idea to move someplace else for years. The VAST majority of these projects fail before the first person moves, but even the ones that have had people move, have had no where near the impact the FSP has had. Before you expend valuable time planning the next failure, please, read this list of past failures, study them, learn from them. This really is a fool's errand.

So the Shire Society and FreeKeene are failed errands of fools, which now lay smoldering in ruins?

Have you shared your thoughts on this with Ian?

[MedgeFTL]

If I gave the impression that everything on the list was a total failure, my apologies, but I think we can both agree that the majority of the projects that are unaffiliated with the FSP are incipient or failures. I think the Blue Ridge Liberty Project is an exception, at this point, but they could have done everything they have done in New Hampshire that they have done in Asheville. Can we agree that the vast majority of projects are incipient or failures?

Obviously, some people are not going to listen to my advise, they are going to go on and try it. The purpose of the list is to list their successes and failures as they can be viewed from outside. The successes of the FSP are daunting competition for any competing project.

Moving anywhere for more freedom is a giant commitment, a commitment that 1600 people have made to the FSP. There isn't a project that can claim a tenth of that.

[Keith and stuff]

Many people have pointed out that the Free State Project is flawed, and it is, everything is flawed, but I have been watching people come up with the idea to move someplace else for years. The VAST majority of these projects fail before the first person moves, but even the ones that have had people move, have had no where near the impact the FSP has had. Before you expend valuable time planning the next failure, please, read this list of past failures, study them, learn from them. This really is a fool's errand.

https://www.facebook.com/MoveHereProject

QFT! There isn't a project outside of New Hampshire that has been even 1% as successful as the Free State Project has been.

[helmuth_hubener]

I do appreciate your naysaying. As it happens, I am already aware of a great many of the projects you have listed. Also, as it happens, the plan I am proposing to do is completely unaffiliated with and has nothing to do with any of them. So, their experiences do not reflect badly on me. You may want their alleged failures to somehow rub off or tarnish my ideas, thus you come to post them here, but I do not think that they do.

If I gave the impression that everything on the list was a total failure, my apologies

Apology accepted! I can only go based on what you wrote, and so since you wrote that I should "read this list of past failures," and that my idea is "a fool's errand," I took your meaning as quite clear. Surely you can understand my "incorrect impression."

The successes of the FSP are daunting competition for any competing project.

Is the success of Apple "daunting competition" for Printrbot?

Moving anywhere for more freedom is a giant commitment, a commitment that 1600 people have made to the FSP. There isn't a project that can claim a tenth of that.

I do not think that the FSP can claim that either.

I do think that they can claim a tenth of that.

[MedgeFTL]

I do appreciate your naysaying. As it happens, I am already aware of a great many of the projects you have listed. Also, as it happens, the plan I am proposing to do is completely unaffiliated with and has nothing to do with any of them. So, their experiences do not reflect badly on me. You may want their alleged failures to somehow rub off or tarnish my ideas, thus you come to post them here, but I do not think that they do.

I WANT all other projects to be a success, but they are generally not. One of the reasons they are not is the competition for movers. In most cases, one can only be a member of one project at a time, and moving is costly. That is why I believe your and all other projects not affiliated with the FSP to be fool's errands. I have been wrong before and I will be wrong again, but on this issue, I am among the top .00001% (certainly .0001%) on this topic and feel comfortable in saying that yours and most competing projects will fail. Good luck, I will buy in if you succeed, but my advice is to just put away your complaints about the FSP, as I have, and move.

Apology accepted! I can only go based on what you wrote, and so since you wrote that I should "read this list of past failures," and that my idea is "a fool's errand," I took your meaning as quite clear. Surely you can understand my "incorrect impression."

Again, I am sorry for the confusion. I am saying that most projects on the list are failures and I am predicting the same for yours, but I will be pleasantly surprised if I am wrong, although likely jealous that you didn't do it in NH. If you are sufficiently more successful than the FSP, in my estimation, I will move for your project.

Is the success of Apple "daunting competition" for Printrbot?

I suspect they appeal to a different group of people, so no. The FSP appeals to a very wide group of liberty lovers.

I do not think that the FSP can claim that either.

I do think that they can claim a tenth of that.

Are you claiming that the FSP is overstating its mover number by a wide margin? Certainly people have moved out, that have not been recorded, but we have had plenty of people move that never signed up because they don't like lists or something. I live here everyday. I see the Porcs that are involved at the State House, in media, in civ dis, locally and the ones that don't do much at all. I think 1600 is a pretty fair number of people that have moved here because of the FSP. I don't care if they signed up.

A few dozen more people moving to Grafton would truly tip the scales there. Go visit. If you want to 'take over' a town, Grafton fits your bill and is much easier than getting 1000 people to move.

[helmuth_hubener]

although likely jealous that you didn't do it in NH.

Who says we won't end up in New Hampshire? Where did I say that? Where did I rule that out?

Just because Keith sicced you down here to rain on my parade doesn't mean I'm trying to rain on yours.

[MedgeFTL]

Who says we won't end up in New Hampshire? Where did I say that? Where did I rule that out?

Just because Keith sicced you down here to rain on my parade doesn't mean I'm trying to rain on yours.

I can't honestly remember how I got to this page. That is frightening to me. It was just this morning!

In any event, I care about people and I know what a huge cost it is to move. So, I put together my little list on Facebook to try to educate folks. I predict far better results from a move to NH than other places, if you do pick someplace else, make it awesome and warm, I need a winter home .

BTW, this is one of our favorite topics on FTL. I'd love for you to call in with different ideas. We never get to discuss this, because we are such zealots for the FSP that no one will talk to us about the problems with the FSP or how one can do it better.

[Thor]

http://money.cnn.com/2014/07/24/real...ale/index.html


For sale: Town of Aladdin, Wyo., for $1.5 million

[MedgeFTL]

http://money.cnn.com/2014/07/24/real...ale/index.html


For sale: Town of Aladdin, Wyo., for $1.5 million

Wyoming is a Home Rule state and that is good, but their Home Rule law is weak and has essentially been gutted.

http://trib.com/opinion/editorial/wy...20f321787.html

[helmuth_hubener]

BTW, this is one of our favorite topics on FTL. I'd love for you to call in with different ideas. We never get to discuss this, because we are such zealots for the FSP that no one will talk to us about the problems with the FSP or how one can do it better.

That's cool, maybe I will. I do enjoy FTL occasionally and I am very, very impressed with what you guys have accomplished with that.

I think that Grafton, NH is a terrific idea with a lot of potential. I personally would consider it a top candidate for a plan like this. Perhaps the top candidate. I can't think of a better one at the moment anyway.

The first task is to gauge interest. This may be a no-go from the get-go. There may not be enough people willing to do it, much less serious, respectable people willing to do it. In that case, I shrug and shelve it.

if you do pick someplace else, make it awesome and warm, I need a winter home .

Kalaupapa is calling....

[Keith and stuff]

http://money.cnn.com/2014/07/24/real...ale/index.html


For sale: Town of Aladdin, Wyo., for $1.5 million

It is just 30 acres. The MSM loves to lie about this!

[MedgeFTL]

That's cool, maybe I will. I do enjoy FTL occasionally and I am very, very impressed with what you guys have accomplished with that.

I think that Grafton, NH is a terrific idea with a lot of potential. I personally would consider it a top candidate for a plan like this. Perhaps the top candidate. I can't think of a better one at the moment anyway.

The first task is to gauge interest. This may be a no-go from the get-go. There may not be enough people willing to do it, much less serious, respectable people willing to do it. In that case, I shrug and shelve it.

Kalaupapa is calling....

There is nothing to shelve with Grafton. The activists there are numerous and busy. Just being there you will at the very least see what it takes to be successful elsewhere. Bring people with you if you can, sure, but go visit for a week. Someone will gladly put you up. It is amazing what they are doing there. If you want abuse from statists, Keene is just an hour or so away.

I thought someone said Kalaupapa is off-limits. Is that not so?

[helmuth_hubener]

Wow, thanks, Thor! I have actually been to Aladdin! Maybe I'll go back again and check things out. Certainly if there's interest I could. It's a very small place.

And I know a bunch of Free State Wyomingers and others in the area with houses and/or land nearby.

Here's the Street View of it:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Al...94dfd3!6m1!1e1

Thoughts?

[helmuth_hubener]

Wyoming is a Home Rule state and that is good, but their Home Rule law is weak and has essentially been gutted.

http://trib.com/opinion/editorial/wy...20f321787.html

Interesting... I had no idea about this, and I was living there. You do keep up on things! Thanks for the info. Sharing stuff like this is very productive.

[helmuth_hubener]

There is nothing to shelve with Grafton. The activists there are numerous and busy. Just being there you will at the very least see what it takes to be successful elsewhere. Bring people with you if you can, sure, but go visit for a week. Someone will gladly put you up. It is amazing what they are doing there. If you want abuse from statists, Keene is just an hour or so away.

That does sound good!

I thought someone said Kalaupapa is off-limits. Is that not so?

Well, limits can change. They most certainly will change eventually (relatively soon), because the people living there are getting up there in age. It's not an issue right now since they are still alive and no one else is clamoring to live there.