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Thread: Creating a Free Town or County

  1. #1

    Default Creating a Free Town or County

    This has been discussed before. I want to bring it up again and see how much interest there still is.

    If there are about 1,000 liberty-lovers willing to relocate, we could all relocate to a town or county of population 1,000 or so and join with the locals to move the town or county closer to liberty.

    Who would be interested and willing to do such a thing?
    Last edited by helmuth_hubener; 07-29-2014 at 12:25 PM.
    The rebel of the 21st Century will be old-fashioned.



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  3. #2

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    I agree although I would change the wording from "take over" to "join with the locals to move the county/town closer to liberty." Words matter
    Insanity should be defined as trusting the government to solve a problem they caused in the first place. Please do not go insane!

  4. #3

    Default

    While I love the idea...

    I have to wonder, is such a thing possible?

    If you take over a town, the County, State and Federal Codes and Law still rule you.

    How do you get around that?

    Just curious

  5. #4

    Default

    Here is some data for you, counties under 1k pop (2012 est)

    Loving County, Texas 71
    Kalawao County, Hawaii 90
    King County, Texas 276
    Kenedy County, Texas 431
    Arthur County, Nebraska 486
    McPherson County, Nebraska 509
    Petroleum County, Montana 511
    Blaine County, Nebraska 514
    Loup County, Nebraska 589
    Borden County, Texas 616
    Grant County, Nebraska 629
    Yakutat City and Borough, Alaska 668
    Thomas County, Nebraska 676
    San Juan County, Colorado 690
    Harding County, New Mexico 707
    Mineral County, Colorado 709
    McMullen County, Texas 726
    Hooker County, Nebraska 727
    Treasure County, Montana 736
    Slope County, North Dakota 758
    Banner County, Nebraska 760
    Logan County, Nebraska 765
    Esmeralda County, Nevada 775
    Keya Paha County, Nebraska 804
    Wheeler County, Nebraska 805
    Hinsdale County, Colorado 810
    Golden Valley County, Montana 839
    Kent County, Texas 839
    Roberts County, Texas 854
    Clark County, Idaho 869
    Billings County, North Dakota 905
    Terrell County, Texas 917
    Hayes County, Nebraska 953
    Skagway Municipality, Alaska 959
    Bristol Bay Borough, Alaska 991
    Insanity should be defined as trusting the government to solve a problem they caused in the first place. Please do not go insane!

  6. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by echo1 View Post
    While I love the idea...

    I have to wonder, is such a thing possible?

    If you take over a town, the County, State and Federal Codes and Law still rule you.

    How do you get around that?

    Just curious
    Federal and state law depends to a large extent on local enforcement. If city and county law enforcement are limited in their authority. State and federal law will still be in effect in theory, but not so much in practice. However, if someone complains to a State or Federal agency about something (like labor law violations, for example) it is likely that state or federal agents would come to town and do their thing.

    So you couldn't create a fully free town or county but you could move a fair bit in the right direction.
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

    "Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron

    "Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton

  7. #6

    Default

    freestateproject.org

  8. #7

    Default

    If I did not have to move across the country, yes I would consider it.
    "One thing my years in Washington taught me is that most politicians are followers, not leaders. Therefore we should not waste time and resources trying to educate politicians. Politicians will not support individual liberty and limited government unless and until they are forced to do so by the people," says Ron Paul."

  9. #8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by echo1 View Post
    While I love the idea...

    I have to wonder, is such a thing possible?

    If you take over a town, the County, State and Federal Codes and Law still rule you.

    How do you get around that?

    Just curious
    It takes a lot of resources for federal and state governments to enforce federal and state laws, especially if a local government decides to go against them. For instance, marijuana is still illegal on the federal level, meaning Washington and Colorado are technically defying the US government. Obviously, there are limits to what you can do, but there are a great number of local codes and edicts that can be changed or done away with that will greatly improve freedom and won't attract too much attention.

    From what I can tell, the Free State Project in NH has done some good things for that state, so the only real issue is getting enough people on board.
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  10. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TonySutton View Post
    Here is some data for you, counties under 1k pop (2012 est)

    Loving County, Texas 71
    Kalawao County, Hawaii 90
    King County, Texas 276
    Kenedy County, Texas 431
    Arthur County, Nebraska 486
    McPherson County, Nebraska 509
    Petroleum County, Montana 511
    Blaine County, Nebraska 514
    Loup County, Nebraska 589
    Borden County, Texas 616
    Grant County, Nebraska 629
    Yakutat City and Borough, Alaska 668
    Thomas County, Nebraska 676
    San Juan County, Colorado 690
    Harding County, New Mexico 707
    Mineral County, Colorado 709
    McMullen County, Texas 726
    Hooker County, Nebraska 727
    Treasure County, Montana 736
    Slope County, North Dakota 758
    Banner County, Nebraska 760
    Logan County, Nebraska 765
    Esmeralda County, Nevada 775
    Keya Paha County, Nebraska 804
    Wheeler County, Nebraska 805
    Hinsdale County, Colorado 810
    Golden Valley County, Montana 839
    Kent County, Texas 839
    Roberts County, Texas 854
    Clark County, Idaho 869
    Billings County, North Dakota 905
    Terrell County, Texas 917
    Hayes County, Nebraska 953
    Skagway Municipality, Alaska 959
    Bristol Bay Borough, Alaska 991
    I vote for Hawaii.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  11. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by muzzled dogg View Post
    freestateproject.org
    I think what the OP is taking about more relates to Grafton, New Hampshire. Of course, no one is trying to take over Grafton or anything, as that would obviously be wrong!

    There used to be a thing called the Free Town Project. It looked at various communities in the US including Loving County, TX, Dalton, NH and Grafton, NH.

    Dalton, NH was decided against because after talking to some of the locals, some of the more wacky people involved in the FTP decided it best not to move there. The FTP's wackist folks were unwelcomed by the sane people moving to Grafton for more liberty. Then these same wacky people tried to move to Loving County, TX. However, it appears as though they violated the law and warrants were issued for their arrest if they went to Loving County, so the wacky folks make sure to stay out of Loving County, TX.

    Even before the Free State Project (which isn't connected to the Free Town Project), there was a lady that tried to get a bunch of libertarians to move to the city she lived in - Ft. Collins, CO. Obviously, that was a complete failure.

    Anyway, both the Free State Project and folks moving to Grafton are still happening. Actually, they are both by far the most successful of such movements in the nation. You can do both by moving to Grafton or just one of them by moving to anywhere else in New Hampshire.
    Lifetime member of more than 1 national gun organization and the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance. Part of Young Americans for Liberty and Campaign for Liberty. Free State Project participant and multi-year Free Talk Live AMPlifier.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    This has been discussed before. I want to bring it up again and see how much interest there still is.

    If there are about 1,000 liberty-lovers willing to relocate, we could all relocate to a town or county of population 1,000 or so and take over.

    Who would be interested and willing to do such a thing?
    Taking over a town isn't moral, IMO.

    But almost all of the people in the nation that currently would be willing to relocate to a low populated, somewhat liberty leaning place with the goal of bringing about liberty in their lifetime have either already moved to New Hampshire as part of the Free State Project, signed up for the Free State Project but haven't moved early or are considering signing up for the Free State Project. That is your market right there. Perhaps you might want to go to NH and try to convince free staters of the idea that it would by okay and even moral to take over an area? I don't think many will agree but it might be worth a shot.
    Lifetime member of more than 1 national gun organization and the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance. Part of Young Americans for Liberty and Campaign for Liberty. Free State Project participant and multi-year Free Talk Live AMPlifier.

  13. #12

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    To go along with Tony's table....

    Property Tax rates

    United States 1.38
    Alaska 1.80
    Alabama 0.65
    Arkansas 0.88
    Arizona 1.21
    California 0.68
    Colorado 1.08
    Connecticut 1.72
    District of Columbia 1.31
    Delaware 0.68
    Florida 1.20
    Georgia 1.52
    Hawaii 0.40
    Iowa 2.15
    Idaho 1.42
    Illinois 1.79
    Indiana 2.12
    Kansas 2.09
    Kentucky 0.96
    Louisiana 1.02
    Massachusetts 1.07
    Maryland 1.06
    Maine 1.75
    Michigan 1.91
    Minnesota 1.27
    Missouri 1.42

    Mississippi 1.44
    Montana 1.65
    North Carolina 1.10
    North Dakota 1.84
    Nebraska 2.15
    New Hampshire 2.21
    New Jersey 1.78
    New Mexico 0.72
    Nevada 0.83
    New York 1.76
    Ohio 1.81
    Oklahoma 1.03
    Oregon 1.22
    Pennsylvania 1.70
    Rhode Island 1.52
    South Carolina 1.38
    South Dakota 1.96
    Tennessee 1.07
    Texas 2.57
    Utah 1.31
    Virginia 1.12
    Vermont 2.06
    Washington 1.13
    Wisconsin 2.09
    West Virginia 0.95
    Wyoming 2.18

    In addition to an area with low enough population and property tax rates, it would be nice to live in a fairly hospitable area that meets Joel Skousen's criteria for relative safety in terms of being removed from population centers and likely disaster areas.
    "Sorry, fellows, the rebellion is off. We couldn't get a rebellion permit."

  14. #13

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    I vote for Hawaii.
    Unfortunately, Kalawao County is actually the old leper colony. The population is limited to the living original inhabitants and no new inhabitants are allowed.
    Insanity should be defined as trusting the government to solve a problem they caused in the first place. Please do not go insane!

  15. #14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith and stuff View Post
    Taking over a town isn't moral, IMO.

    But almost all of the people in the nation that currently would be willing to relocate to a low populated, somewhat liberty leaning place with the goal of bringing about liberty in their lifetime have either already moved to New Hampshire as part of the Free State Project, signed up for the Free State Project but haven't moved early or are considering signing up for the Free State Project. That is your market right there. Perhaps you might want to go to NH and try to convince free staters of the idea that it would by okay and even moral to take over an area? I don't think many will agree but it might be worth a shot.

    One thing that has me puzzled about many of the FSP folks is refusal to participate in the system. Imagine if none of the Free Staters believed in voting (I know many do, but many don't). If they don't vote, existing voters have tremendous power over them; elections are not going to be invalidated just because a small percentage of eligible voters actually vote. That leaves the system in place to continue to oppress the Free Staters.
    "Sorry, fellows, the rebellion is off. We couldn't get a rebellion permit."

  16. #15

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    Overall tax burden by state from taxfoundation.org

    United States 9.80%
    Wyoming 6.90%
    Alaska 7.00%
    South Dakota 7.10%
    Texas 7.50%
    Louisiana 7.60%
    Tennessee 7.60%
    New Hampshire 8.00%
    Nevada 8.10%
    Alabama 8.30%
    South Carolina 8.30%
    Mississippi 8.40%
    Oklahoma 8.50%
    Montana 8.60%
    New Mexico 8.60%
    Georgia 8.80%
    North Dakota 8.80%
    Arizona 8.90%
    Colorado 9.00%
    Missouri 9.00%
    Florida 9.20%
    Virginia 9.20%
    Iowa 9.30%
    Kansas 9.40%
    Nebraska 9.40%
    Utah 9.40%
    Washington 9.40%
    Idaho 9.50%
    Indiana 9.50%
    Kentucky 9.50%
    Hawaii 9.60%
    Michigan 9.60%
    Ohio 9.70%
    West Virginia 9.70%
    North Carolina 9.80%
    Delaware 10.10%
    Oregon 10.10%
    Illinois 10.20%
    Maine 10.20%
    Arkansas 10.30%
    Massachusetts 10.30%
    Pennsylvania 10.30%
    Rhode Island 10.50%
    Vermont 10.50%
    Maryland 10.60%
    Minnesota 10.70%
    Wisconsin 11.00%
    California 11.40%
    Connecticut 11.90%
    New Jersey 12.30%
    New York 12.60%
    Insanity should be defined as trusting the government to solve a problem they caused in the first place. Please do not go insane!

  17. #16

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    Loving County, Texas 71
    This is in the permian basin. I'm not familiar with Texas geography but it looks like its around 50 miles out of Midland/Odessa area which is the 'boomiest' area for oil jobs in Texas. Which = good paying jobs even if you aren't in the oilfield sector. This'll be on my radar whether its a 'free county' or not.

    the county is also the least densely populated county outside of Alaska.
    I think I'm in love

  18. #17

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    Keith's reader's digest version is probably accurate enough to go by. What I'd like to do is this:

    There's a network effect making certain things desirable to do only if a whole lot of other people do them too. Sites such as Kickstarter and IndieGoGo successfully solve this problem. They make it possible for people to donate or invest small amounts of money to a large project, but only on the condition that a whole lot of other people do too. The money is only collected if the required threshold of pledges is reached within a given time-frame.

    The Free State Project (FSP) attempted to solve the network problem in exactly the same way. Unfortunately, it suffered from some major design flaws. I don't want to criticize the FSP; it's terrific. It's doing great things. Being the first attempt at something of its kind, it's understandable and in fact predictable that it would have problems.

    Problem 1 was that the rules were not set in stone, as they are on Kickstarter (and other sites like that, but I'll just refer to Kickstarter for simplicity). They were not cut-and-dried. Or, perhaps it would be better to say that they were cut-and-dried, but then that was changed arbitrarily. On Kickstarter, there are two limiting conditions: that a certain amount of pledges be made, and that that happen within a definite time limit. The FSP had two similar limiting conditions: a certain number of pledges to move, within a certain time limit. To quote:

    Q. What is the time frame for the Free State Project?
    A. The Participation Guidelines state that a signature on the Statement of Intent becomes void, and must be renewed by the signer, if three years pass before we reach 5,000 members and select the state. The Participation Guidelines also state that once we reach 20,000 members, everyone has five years to move to the selected state. The Participation Guidelines do not specify a requisite time period between reaching 5,000 members and reaching 20,000 members. However, the assumption has always been that if 20,000 is not close at hand within five years of the launch of the Free State Project (officially September 1st, 2001), the Project will fold. To get 20,000 signers by September 2006, we will need approximately 15 new signatures per day on average. In the month of September 2002 we averaged 7 new signatures per day, while in August and October we have averaged about 20 signatures per day, compared to 4 per day in February and below 1 per day before then. As we continue to expand our publicity and advertising efforts, a constant average of 15 per day should be well within reach.

    There were not 20,000 signers by September, 2006, of course. Not even close (7,291). However, the project did not fold. One reason goes to an important feature of Kickstarter not shared by the FSP: separation of powers. Oversight. In the FSP, the curator/rule-enforcer and the project management were one and the same. Not so on Kickstarter. How often has a US President issued an executive order to imprison himself for violating the Constitution? Exactly.

    Problem 2 was that the "which state?" vote was held too early. Much of the interest and forum traffic on the FSP site centered around the advantages and disadvantages of the various state candidates. Once the vote results were in, interest and enthusiasm died away quickly. In 2003, it was impossible to be active in the internet libertarian community and not be aware of the Free State Project. The idea was viral. Things were on fire. It was a principal -- probably the principal -- focal point of the movement. Then, in 2005? Not so much. By 2007? Barely a blip on the radar screen. And then the radar screen got bigger. Tens of thousands have come into the liberty movement since, due mostly to Ron Paul and the grassroots campaign we ran around him, and many (most?) of them are completely unfamiliar with the FSP. Virtually none of them have gotten actively involved in it. In retrospect, FSPers will agree that we jumped the gun on the vote. If the state vote had been delayed until the target number of pledges had been met, excitement and intensity and urgency would have been more likely to have been maintained.

    Problem 3 was that there was too little skin in the game. There may have been 5,000 instances of pledges on the website. OK. How many of those were real people? How many were duplicates? Anti-liberty jokers? Even of the ones who were actual liberty-lovers, who pledged in good faith, how many could actually be counted on to move? 75%? 50%? These percentages were completely unknown (and still are). They're a total black box. To address this, more commitment should have been required, and more verification of seriousness. An annual meeting should have been held, where pledgers could meet one another. If a man isn't willing to come to a meeting for a few days for the cause, is he really going to be willing to permanently relocate his entire family? I wouldn't count on it. I'd say that's doubtful. If there are ten thousand pledgers but only 10 people are showing up to the annual convention, that tells you something -- bad news. If there are ten thousand pledgers and eight-to-twelve thousand are showing up, that tells you you're on the right track. You've really got something and it's going to work. There also should have been a monetary requirement. In order to pledge, you would have to pay some amount. Perhaps $20. This would probably largely eliminate "joke" and duplicate sign-ups.

    Others here may be able to think of other measures that could be used to verify reality of commitment from the pledgers.

    Problem 4 was that too large of a chunk was bitten off. A state turns out to be too large, in my opinion, for a variety of reasons. Why start out large when you can start out small and then scale? It seems only wise and prudent. There may not be twenty thousand liberty-lovers willing to relocate to geographically concentrate themselves. There don't seem to be. There certainly aren't that many that the FSP knows about. And twenty thousand may not be enough to effectively control the politics of a state with a million, or even half a million, residents. There are a lot of unknowns. A lot could go wrong. A lot almost certainly will go wrong, as it always does with new start-ups. This geographical concentration idea has no real track record of any successes. It's unproven. So let's start small and succeed. We can prove the concept. We can work out the bugs.

    So, I propose to re-boot the geographical concentration concept. It is a wonderful model, and one with a very good chance of success, if done right. We will learn from all the mistakes of the FSP (and of the other initiatives Keith mentioned, for that matter) and build upon that foundation. We will get firm commitments, from real people. We will get the project on a Kickstarter-like platform that can enforce the rules and be independent of us, so that participants can rest assured the rules will be followed. We will target a small jurisdiction in which we can be confident of being a decisive factor, and we will choose it only once we already have enough people ready to mobilize and become that factor.
    Last edited by helmuth_hubener; 07-23-2014 at 01:34 PM.
    The rebel of the 21st Century will be old-fashioned.

  19. #18

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    I don't think the value in like minded people getting together regionally is so much in the value of changing anything much in the present. In my view it is more of a benefit if SHTF.

    I'd only be interested if the goals weren't primarily political, but deeper than that. Such as promotion of decentralization in all things possible. One of the reasons the government has so much power is because of centralization (centralized electricity generation, food production, manufacturing, etc...). It's not hard to control a large system if there are a few bottleneck systems all rely on.

    As far as the politics go, I'm less and less concerned, as my view is we lost the battle long ago, and the ship is going to slowly sink. Why not start building life boats?

  20. #19

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tod View Post
    To go along with Tony's table....

    Property Tax rates

    United States 1.38
    Alaska 1.80
    Alabama 0.65
    Arkansas 0.88
    Arizona 1.21
    California 0.68
    Colorado 1.08
    Connecticut 1.72
    District of Columbia 1.31
    Delaware 0.68
    Florida 1.20
    Georgia 1.52
    Hawaii 0.40
    Iowa 2.15
    Idaho 1.42
    Illinois 1.79
    Indiana 2.12
    Kansas 2.09
    Kentucky 0.96
    Louisiana 1.02
    Massachusetts 1.07
    Maryland 1.06
    Maine 1.75
    Michigan 1.91
    Minnesota 1.27
    Missouri 1.42

    Mississippi 1.44
    Montana 1.65
    North Carolina 1.10
    North Dakota 1.84
    Nebraska 2.15
    New Hampshire 2.21
    New Jersey 1.78
    New Mexico 0.72
    Nevada 0.83
    New York 1.76
    Ohio 1.81
    Oklahoma 1.03
    Oregon 1.22
    Pennsylvania 1.70
    Rhode Island 1.52
    South Carolina 1.38
    South Dakota 1.96
    Tennessee 1.07
    Texas 2.57
    Utah 1.31
    Virginia 1.12
    Vermont 2.06
    Washington 1.13
    Wisconsin 2.09
    West Virginia 0.95
    Wyoming 2.18

    In addition to an area with low enough population and property tax rates, it would be nice to live in a fairly hospitable area that meets Joel Skousen's criteria for relative safety in terms of being removed from population centers and likely disaster areas.
    Just wanna say you guys are welcome here in WV. I don't know how much I could really do, but if I get a house in the near future like I anticipate, then I would be willing to help people get settled in. There's obviously a lot that needs to be done before any decisions can be made, but I would definitely be willing to help out. My town is about a thousand people and is currently being occupied by the oil & gas industry workers, so there are job opportunities here as well.

    The property taxes are low and the people here are working class.
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  21. #20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    Keith's reader's digest version is probably accurate enough to go by. What I'd like to do is this:

    There's a network effect making certain things desirable to do only if a whole lot of other people do them too. Sites such as Kickstarter and IndieGoGo successfully solve this problem. They make it possible for people to donate or invest small amounts of money to a large project, but only on the condition that a whole lot of other people do too. The money is only collected if the required threshold of pledges is reached within a given time-frame.

    The Free State Project (FSP) attempted to solve the network problem in exactly the same way. Unfortunately, it suffered from some major design flaws. I don't want to criticize the FSP; it's terrific. It's doing great things. Being the first attempt at something of its kind, it's understandable and in fact predictable that it would have problems.

    Problem 1 was that the rules were not set in stone, as they are on Kickstarter (and other sites like that, but I'll just refer to Kickstarter for simplicity). They were not cut-and-dried. Or, perhaps it would be better to say that they were cut-and-dried, but then that was changed arbitrarily. On Kickstarter, there are two limiting conditions: that a certain amount of pledges be made, and that that happen within a definite time limit. The FSP had two similar limiting conditions: a certain number of pledges to move, within a certain time limit. To quote:

    Q. What is the time frame for the Free State Project?
    A. The Participation Guidelines state that a signature on the Statement of Intent becomes void, and must be renewed by the signer, if three years pass before we reach 5,000 members and select the state. The Participation Guidelines also state that once we reach 20,000 members, everyone has five years to move to the selected state. The Participation Guidelines do not specify a requisite time period between reaching 5,000 members and reaching 20,000 members. However, the assumption has always been that if 20,000 is not close at hand within five years of the launch of the Free State Project (officially September 1st, 2001), the Project will fold. To get 20,000 signers by September 2006, we will need approximately 15 new signatures per day on average. In the month of September 2002 we averaged 7 new signatures per day, while in August and October we have averaged about 20 signatures per day, compared to 4 per day in February and below 1 per day before then. As we continue to expand our publicity and advertising efforts, a constant average of 15 per day should be well within reach.

    There were not 20,000 signers by September, 2006, of course. Not even close (7,291). However, the project did not fold. One reason goes to an important feature of Kickstarter not shared by the FSP: separation of powers. Oversight. In the FSP, the curator/rule-enforcer and the project management were one and the same. Not so on Kickstarter. How often has a US President issued an executive order to imprison himself for violating the Constitution? Exactly.

    Problem 2 was that the "which state?" vote was held too early. Much of the interest and forum traffic on the FSP site centered around the advantages and disadvantages of the various state candidates. Once the vote results were in, interest and enthusiasm died away quickly. In 2003, it was impossible to be active in the internet libertarian community and not be aware of the Free State Project. The idea was viral. Things were on fire. It was a principal -- probably the principal -- focal point of the movement. Then, in 2005? Not so much. By 2007? Barely a blip on the radar screen. And then the radar screen got bigger. Tens of thousands have come into the liberty movement since, due mostly to Ron Paul and the grassroots campaign we ran around him, and many (most?) of them are completely unfamiliar with the FSP. Virtually none of them have gotten actively involved in it. In retrospect, FSPers will agree that we jumped the gun on the vote. If the state vote had been delayed until the target number of pledges had been met, excitement and intensity and urgency would have been more likely to have been maintained.

    Problem 3 was that there was too little skin in the game. There may have been 5,000 instances of pledges on the website. OK. How many of those were real people? How many were duplicates? Anti-liberty jokers? Even of the ones who were actual liberty-lovers, who pledged in good faith, how many could actually be counted on to move? 75%? 50%? These percentages were completely unknown (and still are). They're a total black box. To address this, more commitment should have been required, and more verification of seriousness. An annual meeting should have been held, where pledgers could meet one another. If a man isn't willing to come to a meeting for a few days for the cause, is he really going to be willing to permanently relocate his entire family? I wouldn't count on it. I'd say that's doubtful. If there are ten thousand pledgers but only 10 people are showing up to the annual convention, that tells you something -- bad news. If there are ten thousand pledgers and eight-to-twelve thousand are showing up, that tells you you're on the right track. You've really got something and it's going to work. There also should have been a monetary requirement. In order to pledge, you would have to pay some amount. Perhaps $20. This would probably largely eliminate "joke" and duplicate sign-ups.

    Others here may be able to think of other measures that could be used to verify reality of commitment from the pledgers.

    Problem 4 was that too large of a chunk was bitten off. A state turns out to be too large, in my opinion, for a variety of reasons. Why start out large when you can start out small and then scale? It seems only wise and prudent. There may not be twenty thousand liberty-lovers willing to relocate to geographically concentrate themselves. There don't seem to be. There certainly aren't that many that the FSP knows about. And twenty thousand may not be enough to effectively control the politics of a state with a million, or even half a million, residents. There are a lot of unknowns. A lot could go wrong. A lot almost certainly will go wrong, as it always does with new start-ups. This geographical concentration idea has no real track record of any successes. It's unproven. So let's start small and succeed. We can prove the concept. We can work out the bugs.

    So, I propose to re-boot the geographical concentration concept. It is a wonderful model, and one with a very good chance of success, if done right. We will learn from all the mistakes of the FSP (and of the other initiatives Keith mentioned, for that matter) and build upon that foundation. We will get firm commitments, from real people. We will get the project on a Kickstarter-like platform that can enforce the rules and be independent of us, so that participants can rest assured the rules will be followed. We will target a small jurisdiction in which we can be confident of being a decisive factor, and we will choose it only once we already have enough people ready to mobilize and become that factor.

    Great post.

    What would be the first step in your reboot?
    "One thing my years in Washington taught me is that most politicians are followers, not leaders. Therefore we should not waste time and resources trying to educate politicians. Politicians will not support individual liberty and limited government unless and until they are forced to do so by the people," says Ron Paul."

  22. #21

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TonySutton View Post
    Overall tax burden by state from taxfoundation.org

    United States 9.80%
    Wyoming 6.90%
    Alaska 7.00%
    South Dakota 7.10%
    Texas 7.50%
    Louisiana 7.60%
    Tennessee 7.60%
    New Hampshire 8.00%
    Nevada 8.10%
    Alabama 8.30%
    South Carolina 8.30%
    Mississippi 8.40%
    Oklahoma 8.50%
    Montana 8.60%
    New Mexico 8.60%
    Georgia 8.80%
    North Dakota 8.80%
    Arizona 8.90%
    Colorado 9.00%
    Missouri 9.00%
    Florida 9.20%
    Virginia 9.20%
    Iowa 9.30%
    Kansas 9.40%
    Nebraska 9.40%
    Utah 9.40%
    Washington 9.40%
    Idaho 9.50%
    Indiana 9.50%
    Kentucky 9.50%
    Hawaii 9.60%
    Michigan 9.60%
    Ohio 9.70%
    West Virginia 9.70%
    North Carolina 9.80%
    Delaware 10.10%
    Oregon 10.10%
    Illinois 10.20%
    Maine 10.20%
    Arkansas 10.30%
    Massachusetts 10.30%
    Pennsylvania 10.30%
    Rhode Island 10.50%
    Vermont 10.50%
    Maryland 10.60%
    Minnesota 10.70%
    Wisconsin 11.00%
    California 11.40%
    Connecticut 11.90%
    New Jersey 12.30%
    New York 12.60%
    The total tax burden question is really complicated. You have some combination of income tax, property tax, and/or sales tax and there are advantages and disadvantages to each depending on your own personal factors. Then there are in many states various exemptions from those taxes again depending on your personal situation. I'm flumoxed. What is needed is a spread sheet type program into which you can enter your personal circumstances and which will then compare tax burdens among the states.
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

    "Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron

    "Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton

  23. #22

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    So, I propose to re-boot the geographical concentration concept. It is a wonderful model, and one with a very good chance of success, if done right. We will learn from all the mistakes of the FSP (and of the other initiatives Keith mentioned, for that matter) and build upon that foundation. We will get firm commitments, from real people. We will get the project on a Kickstarter-like platform that can enforce the rules and be independent of us, so that participants can rest assured the rules will be followed. We will target a small jurisdiction in which we can be confident of being a decisive factor, and we will choose it only once we already have enough people ready to mobilize and become that factor.
    One of the mistakes from past efforts is the idea of taking over an area. That's perhaps the most important mistake to learn.

    As for a re-boot, since something similar to what you are talking about has been happening for years, and is still happening in Grafton, NH, why even reboot? The idea is real and is happening now. Dozens have already relocated. The 7th Annual Burning Porcupine Festival happens in August in Grafton. You should come and check it out. The event is free, like it always has been. Your family and friends are also welcome to attend
    Lifetime member of more than 1 national gun organization and the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance. Part of Young Americans for Liberty and Campaign for Liberty. Free State Project participant and multi-year Free Talk Live AMPlifier.

  24. #23

    Default

    This had been tried before. It ended in mass suicide.

  25. #24

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 56ktarget View Post
    This had been tried before. It ended in mass suicide.
    I don't recall that. Can you remind us? I know a whites are best person is trying this in a tiny community in ND - take over. He has gathered widespread opposition from around the nation (and for good reason) and his plan to take over the town is completely failing. The people in the community don't even want to sell property to those evil people (good for them). They ended up arresting the guy and putting him in jail.

    15 January 2014 Last updated at 14:31 ET
    The North Dakota town that thwarted a neo-Nazi takeover
    By Jude Sheerin BBC News, Leith, North Dakota
    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-25646954
    Lifetime member of more than 1 national gun organization and the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance. Part of Young Americans for Liberty and Campaign for Liberty. Free State Project participant and multi-year Free Talk Live AMPlifier.

  26. #25

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith and stuff View Post
    One of the mistakes from past efforts is the idea of taking over an area. That's perhaps the most important mistake to learn.

    As for a re-boot, since something similar to what you are talking about has been happening for years, and is still happening in Grafton, NH, why even reboot? The idea is real and is happening now. Dozens have already relocated. The 7th Annual Burning Porcupine Festival happens in August in Grafton. You should come and check it out. The event is free, like it always has been. Your family and friends are also welcome to attend
    What is the terrain of the Grafton area?
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

    "Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron

    "Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton

  27. #26

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith and stuff View Post
    One of the mistakes from past efforts is the idea of taking over an area. That's perhaps the most important mistake to learn.

    As for a re-boot, since something similar to what you are talking about has been happening for years, and is still happening in Grafton, NH, why even reboot? The idea is real and is happening now. Dozens have already relocated. The 7th Annual Burning Porcupine Festival happens in August in Grafton. You should come and check it out. The event is free, like it always has been. Your family and friends are also welcome to attend

    What, in your view, is the "proper" idea?
    "Sorry, fellows, the rebellion is off. We couldn't get a rebellion permit."

  28. #27

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith and stuff View Post
    I don't recall that. Can you remind us? I know a whites are best person is trying this in a tiny community in ND - take over. He has gathered widespread opposition from around the nation (and for good reason) and his plan to take over the town is completely failing. The people in the community don't even want to sell property to those evil people (good for them). They ended up arresting the guy and putting him in jail.

    15 January 2014 Last updated at 14:31 ET
    The North Dakota town that thwarted a neo-Nazi takeover
    By Jude Sheerin BBC News, Leith, North Dakota
    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-25646954
    He's probably talking about the Jonestown settlement in Africa. In which case, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we're a religious cult...
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  29. #28

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    What is the terrain of the Grafton area?
    https://maps.google.com/maps?q=graft...ed=0CAgQ_AUoAQ

    You can turn on terrain and photos. Not as rough as I expected; looks nice to me!
    "Sorry, fellows, the rebellion is off. We couldn't get a rebellion permit."

  30. #29

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulConventionWV View Post
    He's probably talking about the Jonestown settlement in Africa. In which case, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we're a religious cult...
    I think so too (it was in Guyana, South America)
    "Sorry, fellows, the rebellion is off. We couldn't get a rebellion permit."

  31. #30

    Default

    The US has a lot of "utopian" communities in its past, often with religious/socialist roots. They were all the rage in the 1800's. There were several here in Ohio.

    Zoar Village

    http://historiczoarvillage.com/explo...-virtual-tour/

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoar,_Ohio

    ....Zoar was founded by German religious dissenters called the Society of Separatists of Zoar in 1817. It was a communal society, with many German-style structures that have been restored and are part of the Zoar Village State Memorial. There are presently ten restored buildings. According to the Ohio Historical Society, Zoar is an island of Old-World charm in east-central Ohio.[4]
    The Separatists, or Zoarites, emigrated from the kingdom of Württemberg in southwestern Germany due to religious oppression from the Lutheran church. Leading among their group were some natives of Rottenacker on the Danube. Having separated from the established church, their theology was based in part on the writings of Jakob Böhme. They did not practice baptism or confirmation and did not celebrate religious holidays except for the Sabbath. A central flower garden in Zoar is based on the Book of Revelation with a towering tree in the middle representing Christ and other elements surrounding it representing other allegorical elements.
    The leader of the society was named Joseph Bimeler (also known as Joseph Bäumler or Bäumeler, born 1778), a pipemaker as well as teacher from Ulm. His charismatic leadership carried the village through a number of crises.
    An early event critical to the success of the colony was the digging of the Ohio and Erie Canal. The Zoarites had purchased 5,000 acres (20 km2) of land sight unseen and used loans to pay for it. The loans were to be paid off by 1830. The Society struggled for many years to determine what products and services they could produce in their village to pay off the loans. The state of Ohio required some of the Zoarite land to be used as a right of way and offered the Zoarites an opportunity to assist in digging the canals for money. The state gave them a choice of digging it themselves for pay or having the state pay others to dig the canal. The Zoarites then spent several years in the 1820s digging the canal and thus were able to pay off their loans on time with much money to spare.
    Bimeler's death on August 31, 1853 led to a slow decline in the cohesion of the village. By 1898, the village voted to disband the communal society and the property was divided among the remaining residents.....

    List of Utopian Communities in the US

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...an_communities
    "Sorry, fellows, the rebellion is off. We couldn't get a rebellion permit."

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